the latest headlines from bbc news, i'm reged ahmad. tropical cyclone debbie has made landfall in the australian state of queensland. strong winds and heavy rains are battering the coast. thousands of residents have been evacuated from coastal towns, leaving homes sandbagged and boarded up. forecasters say it could last for up to 18 hours. government forces in iraq are intensifying their efforts to drive so—called islamic state out of western mosul. the use of helicopter gunships and crude rocket launchers is raising further concerns about civilian casualties. many of those fleeing the city say the assaults are too indiscriminate. the family of one of those killed in the westminster terror attack has spoken for the first time. relatives of the american tourist, kurt cochran, say they bear no ill—will following the atrocity. meanwhile, the mother of the attacker has expressed her shock and sadness, saying she's cried for his victims. the meeting between theresa may and nicola sturgeon is making the front

page of the are in some of the papers that have been published around britain. —— the i. the ft leads on tesco‘s bid to buy the ood wholesaler booker, but also finds room on the front page for the failure to find a solution to northern ireland's political deadlock. the express carries a claim from the former government minister iain duncan smith, that the eu owes the uk billions of pounds. and mr duncan smith also makes the front page of the telegraph. he's one of a group of politicians and business leaders calling on the government to sweep away european red tape once we leave the eu. the words of the mother of westminster terrorist khalid masood are highlighted by the metro. she says she's shocked, saddened and numbed by her son's actions. the mail leads with details of a cost—cutting plan for the nhs and it also seems to think the legs of the prime minister and scottish first minister are worth highlighting. the guardian has pro—eu conservatives urging theresa may to concentrate on securing a good

post—brexit trade deal for the uk rather than the size of the bill for leaving the eu. while the mirror leads with more on last week's terror attack in london, including the speed it's thought khalid masood drove on his murderous rampage along westminster bridge. now it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi, here in florida, where my guest is 98—year—old ben ferencz. he is the last surviving prosecutor at the nuremberg nazi trials. he also helped liberate the death camps of europe while serving in the us. army. so does he believe that the nuremberg trials have made genocide and other crimes against humanity

less likely to be committed in the world today? ben ferencz, welcome to hardtalk. you were born in 1920 in tra nsylva nia you were born in 1920 in transylvania in central europe. you moved to the united states with your family when you were a little baby. you really epitomise the american dream, a kind of rags to riches story, because it was discovered that you were highly intelligent and you were put on a fast track to harvard law school. we arrived in america, my parents were young immigrants fleeing persecution and

poverty. no money, no skills, no language. and lucky to have some friendly new yorker offer us, my father, who had been trained as a shoemaker, but they didn't need any boots made in new york, there were no cobblers. but the owner of a building offered us the opportunity to sleep in the cellar and my father would be the janitor. that's where we began, and that's where my memory begins, ina we began, and that's where my memory begins, in a high crime density area known for good reason as hells kitchen. there was a lot of crying, is that what excited your interest in law and pursuing a career in law? it excited my interest in not being on the criminal side, put it that way, there was crying all around. i had made up my mind early that i didn't want to be a cowboy and i didn't want to be a cowboy and i didn't want to be a fireman and i didn't want to be a fireman and i didn't want to be a crook either, so that pretty much left me to go to

law and eyes focused on it ever since. after you graduated from harvard law school in 1943, you join the us military and joined a battalion preparing for the invasion of france. what are your key recollections of that time?|j enlisted recollections of that time?” enlisted whenever i could get into the army, i was a private, the lowest ra n k the army, i was a private, the lowest rank you could get, assigned to be in the artillery battalion. and in that capacity we landed on the beaches of normandy. france was occupied by the germans. the only way to move the war forward and to get rid of the war was to defeat the germans. i sailed from lands end at the tip of england across to omaha beach, which was still... had been cleared by the time i got there a bit. but there were many soldiers in american uniform still lying in the

sea face down. there were many armoured vehicles still in the water and we had to push on from there into france and defeat them. there was heavy artillery all the way. many battles all the way. and it was only when we got into the german occupied, and germany itself, that we began to encounter a possible war crimes. as nazi atrocities were uncovered you were transferred to a newly created war crimes branch of the army to gather evidence of nazi brutality and apprehend the war criminals. you entered the death camps, like two kleinveldt, and you described how you sourcing from hell. described to us what you saw.

—— buchenwald. i can describe it vividly because the recollection is clear in my mind but at the same time you can't understand what it is like because the rational human mind can't quite grasp it. coming into buchenwald for example, dead bodies lying all on the ground, you can't tell if they're dead or alive. skeletons dressed in just rags which had at one time been part of their work uniform with a triangle indicating they were dues, homosexuals, communists or whatever. —— dues. everyone is running in different directions. the ss is running out. a scene like the pile of rubbish the size of this room and in it inmates grovelling like rats for a bite of food and picking out garbage and sticking it into their mouths. the smell of foul flesh

burning. crematoria, stacks of human bodies looking like bones stacked one on top of the other while they are shovelled into a crematorium and turned into ash and the fact is used for making soap and their ashes are used as fertiliser. the ss is running out, occasionally getting caught and beaten to death by the inmates, they were still not able to do anything about it. i wrote somewhere that i had peered into hell. i think hell would be paradise compared to what i saw. are the memories of what you saw still very vivid for you? yes, i don't like to talk about them much because i have difficulty controlling my own emotions. in 1945 you left the u.s. army, returned to new york and prepared to practise law but shortly after that you were recruited for

the new york nuremberg trials, the international prosecution against the likes of hermann goering and other leading nazis were already in progress. what was your reaction when you were asked to be part of that process? when the war was over, icame that process? when the war was over, i came back along with 10 million other soldiers looking for a job. i graduated from the harvard law school and i passed the bar but i had no clients of any kind. i was pleased to get a telegram from the pentagon invitingly to come to the pentagon invitingly to come to the pentagon and they wanted to talk to me. i arrived and they said dear, sir, they had never called me serve before, they wanted me to go back to germany to help with warcrimes trials. i had done that during the war days. the last several months in

the war as we occupied portions of germany and france that had been occupied, we ran into examples of crimes of all kinds, the most obvious ones, what we called the allied flyer cases, very little is known about that. fliers were being shot down in german held territory and they were almost invariably the can to death by the german mob. it was probably our first war crimes cases “— was probably our first war crimes cases —— part of. i had that kind of experience with me as when i left the army. i took that back to germany when i agreed without hesitation to go back to germany and help with trials which would follow the international military tribunal. why did you hesitate? it's a horrible experience for anyone. germany was associated in my mind with atrocity and terrible crimes, i didn't want to go back to germany. this is horror glorified. nothing

heroic about it at all. it shows how human beings can be debased in times of war. so you did go back to germany and you've scoured nazi officers and archives and trying to find evidence of the nazi atrocities —— you scoured nazi offices. it was quite all pervasive, wasn't it? the people that were involved in the atrocities. the united states in particular felt the international monetary fund criminal trial against hermann goring was a camera shot of a small sampling and to really understand how a civilised country like germany could commit and tolerate the kind of atrocities that we re tolerate the kind of atrocities that were committed, you should understand the position that doctors who perform medical experiments, the lawyers and judges that perverted the law, the ss officers that did

the law, the ss officers that did the killings, the industrialists that were working people to death, all of these were specific groups. so the united states said let us ta ke so the united states said let us take a sampling from the drop these groups to help us understand it. so i went to berlin with about 50 people, scoured all of the archives, hours of nazi archives, to gather the evidence to cover the broad spectrum of german society which basically was responsible for the crimes. in previous interviews you described how ingathering witness testimonies you did resort to duress, for instance lining up villagers and threatening to shoot them if they lied. i'm in, such methods now would amount to witness harassment of the most extreme order —— i mean. harassment of the most extreme order -- i mean. perhaps it would. but it's only because the people that make the allegations don't understand what war is about. if i

bring a room of 20 people and this isa bring a room of 20 people and this is a natural case, and line them up, and say i want you to all right out exactly what happened, what your role was, what others did, anybody who lies will be shot. how can you doa who lies will be shot. how can you do a thing like that, you're threatening them with torture! what ami threatening them with torture! what am i going to tell them? anybody who lies will get a paddy cake tonight? what do you want me to tell them, be honest, please confess you're a murderer, please, idon't honest, please confess you're a murderer, please, i don't want to threaten new, what are you talking about? there's a war going on, they work killing people. —— pretty new. what am i going to do? i didn't shoot them but i threaten them, that was the only weapon i had in —— and if that makes me a torturer then call me a torturer —— threaten new. you became the chief officer at —— threaten you. there was a case described by the associated press

news agency as the biggest murder trial in history. 22 nazi war criminals who were part of these death squads, shooting more than 1 million people, most of them civilians. it was quite a responsibility for a young man, you we re responsibility for a young man, you were only 27, to take. and in fact, just before you talk to me about that, i just want to show you, this is you at the nuremberg trials. the leading judge, these are the defendants. 22 defendants. each one charged with mass murder. all of them pleaded not guilty. no one ever showed any sign of rob moore is whatsoever. i remember very well whatsoever. i remember very well what i said. —— no sign of remorse. it is with sorrow and with hope that we here disclose the murder of over 1 million innocent and defenceless men, women and children. vengeance is not our goal. nor do we

seek merely just vengeance is not our goal. nor do we seek merelyjust retribution. we ask this taught to affirm by international penal action man's right to live in peace and dignity, regardless of his race or creed. the case we present is a plea of humanity to law, that these men who wrote the darkest page in human history, people were murdered because they didn't share the race and colour and the ideology of their executioners. i thought it was horrible then, i think it is horrible then, i think it is horrible now. and i appealed for the rule of law, which would in future protect people from that type of atrocity. when you look at that picture of view, though, i mean, 27 yea rs of picture of view, though, i mean, 27 years of age, chief prosecutor in the nuremberg process. that was an

accident, that i was the chief prosecutor. 0ne accident, that i was the chief prosecutor. one of my research is, i had about 50 of them in berlin, came across the daily reports from the front of the special extermination squads whose job it was to kill without pity or remorse, every singlejewish without pity or remorse, every single jewish man, woman without pity or remorse, every singlejewish man, woman and child they could lay their hands on, including the same for gypsies and any other perceived or suspected opponent of the reich. no such process had been planned. iflew down to your boat to talk to the general who was the judge, and he said we can't put on this trail now, because of all the lawyers are already assigned, the trials in profits, the pentagon has an approved it, i doubt doubt if they will approve it, and i haven't may hand evidence of mass murder on a scale never before seen in human history. you can't let these guys go. he said can you do it in addition to your other work? i said shaw, and i did, and i rested my case in two days. you said you

wa nted case in two days. you said you wanted to prosecute the offices. you won't as interested in the foot soldiers, you wanted to get the educated officers among them. soldiers, you wanted to get the educated officers among themm soldiers, you wanted to get the educated officers among them. it is very ha rd educated officers among them. it is very hard for the public today to understand. the special extermination squad, einsatzgruppen, the german word means action groups. they were 3000 man. i selected at least 3000. all of whom were complicit in mass murder. i selected those based on several factors. first of all, we had to have them in captivity. if you have got the evidence and you haven't got the prisoner, you have got nothing. i wa nt prisoner, you have got nothing. i want a list of everybody who was a einsatzgruppen member from all of our intelligence services, sent down immediately to neuron boat. i went over the list, i picked those of the highest rank and then checked out their background, from the nazi party records which we captured in berlin. those who had doctor degrees, and had... 0r generals,

they got priorities. i picked out 21 or28, it they got priorities. i picked out 21 or 28, it was we only had 22 seats in the dock. is that absurd? 0f course it is absurd. there were only 22 seats in the dock for the hermann goering trial, so we have a selection. of the 22 who you tried ina selection. of the 22 who you tried in a einsatzgruppen case, about a dozen were given death sentences. four were actually executed, the others remained in prison, but only for a few years, until an agreement, a deal, was made between the american and german governments, and they were released. so it wasn't... it wasn't that formalistic. the political atmosphere had changed. general george patton, who was my commander, made a speech in london toa group commander, made a speech in london to a group before the war was over in which he said we have fought the wrong enemy. we should not have been fighting the germans, we should have been fighting the russians. while the war was on, american general!

americans were still being killed in battle and the russians were being slaughtered. indicated the change of political scene in the united states. a conservative group was saying what we are getting involved in this? this action against the germans, we need the germans. the british were particular keen about not executing some of the german generals that the british army wanted. so the political pressure was such, together with some feeling of amnesty, for humanitarian considerations. they stopped the trials, they released the people who we re trials, they released the people who were there, and then began to rehire people like werner von brown, who knew about rockets, and some of his deputies came to the united states, as they had the new rocket science. so when the trial that you presided over at nuremberg was hailed as a success , over at nuremberg was hailed as a success, as some did at the time, it

can't really be described as that some of those who were found guilty we re some of those who were found guilty were subsequently released.” some of those who were found guilty were subsequently released. i was of course disappointed, but i never anticipated or tried to do justice in the broad sense of holding every criminal accountable. it would have been a practical impossibility. so i was careful in the selection of having the men in custody, having high rank, having good education, having absolute proof beyond any doubt of his guilt. i had his report, top—secret, to his commanders, saying how many people executed. they were not quite accurate. they exaggerated the body count. so more, how many more they killed? then they said it was against our will, superior orders. loonie. was a? they were ordered to kill all thejews, loonie. was a? they were ordered to kill all the jews, but they wanted to brag. they said how many they

killed. you said the lessons, if we do not devote ourselves to developing effective world more, the same inhumanity which made the holocaust possible might one day destroy the entire human race. so today, so many years later, here you are in your 90th year, and you look around you at the world, the conflicts that have happened in recent times, what is your assessment? have we made progress? we have made progress. we have not learned the lesson of nuremberg. we have made progress. i will come back to it. but first let me emphasise the fact, i learnt that war makes murderers. mass murderers, part of otherwise decent people. and it applies to all wars and all nationalities, and i have seen it. and all the wars, these are not wild animals or out for blood, these are patriots who are trying to do their duty to protect either their religion or their nationality or the economic security. these are the

three major causes. we have not learned that you can't kill an ideology with a gun. we still go at it with the same stupid approach, of spending all of your assets on building weapons and more weapons to kill more people, and depriving people of the things they need to eliminate the fear is which they have in their life. the man who is desperate, who has nojob, who has no money, if the money spent on weapons could be spent on eliminating the cause of his discontent, it is not going to risk his life and go out and kill people the way they do today. so you were very instrumental in the setting up of the international criminal court, which was established by the rome statute in 1998. do you think that has really help —— helped prevent

crimes against humanity, war crimes, do you think it has stopped his crimes being committed with impunity? it has helped, but not enough. certainly the existence of laws prohibiting certain behaviour has some deterrent effect, what we have to bear in mind that, for centuries, we have glorified warmaking. ever since david hit goliath in the head with a rock, we have glorified the praise and watching, no politician appears without flags flying on both sides, and the ban is going and marching. and i was a soldier, and i know, and they gave me all the battle stars and they gave me all the decoration of warand all and they gave me all the decoration of war and all that stuff. we have to reverse those dozens of years, because the world has changed. we are not throwing rocks any more. we are not throwing rocks any more. we are going to kill everybody from cyberspace. we can cut off the electrical grid of any city on the planet. are you all crazy? you are standing there watching it happen, the students don't have money to pay

tuition, the refugees have no homes to go to, the old people are dying because they can't afford medical care, and you are pouring billions of dollars every day in the killing machines. what, in your long life and career, have you learned about the nature of evil and human beings' capacity to commit the most unspeakable, horrific acts against their fellow human beings? well, i have learnt simply, it is very obvious, that people in very high places, people of good education and high rank are quite competent at becoming mass murderers against any group that they think threatens either their nationality or their religion or their economic circumstances. i have seen that. these are not crimes committed by devils with horns. these are committed by educated, well intentioned, patriotic people. but we have to change the hearts and minds of people, so that they recognise that it is not cowardice

to be willing to compromise, and to be conciliatory and be compassionate when you are dealing with people who have other points of view. and i know that it takes courage not to be discouraged. but we have got to have that kind of courage, because it is a toughjob, and it will take a long time, and we have to begin in the cradle. so this re—education of the human spirit and the human mind, on a worldwide basis, is the task before us. and we are doing it. look at the among the patient, without the borrett doormat limitations, —— look at the emancipation, without limitations, of the black man. look at marriage, a man can marry a limitations, of the black man. look at marriage, a man can marrya man, at marriage, a man can marrya man, a man can become a woman. 0ur realities today, 25 years ago they said you are out of your mind. and i say don't give up. law is always better than war, and that is my firm

decision, no matter if you get a bad decision. law is always better than war. murder is terrible, and there are three ways of preventing it. 0ne, never give are three ways of preventing it. 0ne, nevergive up, are three ways of preventing it. 0ne, never give up, two, never give up, three... and then i hear the echo from the audience... never give up. ben ferencz, thank you very much for coming on hardtalk. it has been a pleasure. i hope you all... don't enjoy it, but think about it. thank you. well, we had a glorious weekend, nice start to the week, but things are set to turn more unsettled as a low pressure begins to exert its force of the atlantic.

it will be sending weather fronts our way, thicker cloud, increasing wind too. this first weather front will bring increasing cloud and showers to the south—west corner of the uk as we head through the overnight period first thing on tuesday. cloudier night to come for many, central and northern areas, with hill fog and coastal mist, down the east coast of england in particularly. not too cold to start tuesday, one or two pockets of frost across the north—west of scotland. but it means for tuesday a cloudier start to the day. there will be some showers across wales and the south—west and the showers will move their way northwards. some sunny spells for england and wales through the afternoon, but a cloudier day for most of scotland, and a cooler day as a result. though the north—west of scotland, certainly north and west of the great glen, potentially seeing the best of any sunshine and temperatures. showery rain pushing into the south—west. for northern ireland, for northern england, the midlands, scattering of showers here, and some of them could be heavy, and maybe a rumbling of thunder. further south and east

in the sunshine, it will still feel quite warm, temperatures around the mid—teens to up to 20 celsius, i think, at best. the breeze will pick up across the south—west into tuesday evening. the next band of rain, more organised rain, will be spilling up across many northern and western parts of the uk. i think the south—east escaping it, and staying dry. into wednesday, looking unsettled. as you can see, a cloudy affair. outbreaks of rain in the north and west, some heavy. top temperatures around 15 or 16 degrees. quite windy across the north and north—west as that area of low pressure scoots nearby. but an unsettled theme in thursday as well, northern and western areas seen most of the weather fronts, outbreaks of rain here. but for the south—east we will be tapping into some warm air off the continent. thursday could be quite warm and potentially the warmest day of the year so far. 20 or 21 celsius but cooler across the north and the west with outbreaks of rain. into friday, that cooler air will be spreading to most areas. it is a day of sunshine

and showers, quite breezy, too. temperatures of 13 to around 16 or 17, and turning cooler into the weekend. hello you're watching bbc world news, i'm ben bland, our top story this hour. coastal areas in north—eastern australia are battered by heavy rain and winds of more than 250 kilometres an hour. as cyclone debbie makes landfall, parts of queensland are in lockdown. the monster storm sends debris flying, and cuts power lines to thousands of homes. welcome to the programme. our other main stories this hour: after yea rs of battle, we report from the city of homs. what next for syria's civil war? countdown to brexit.