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welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. every day, venezuela seems to get one step closer to economic and political chaos. mass anti—government protests have swept the country for the past month. close to a0 people have been killed in clashes with president maduro's armed enforcers. the shops are short of food, hospitals low on medicine, something it seems, has got to give. my guest isjulio borges, speaker of the opposition—controlled national assembly. is the chavista socialist revolution dying on its feet? julio borges, in caracas, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen. we have seen more than a0 days of mass protests on the streets and we see the violent clashes between protesters and the armed enforcers of president maduro and we see the casualties, many injured and around a0 people, many of them very young, killed. how long can this go on? well, listen, it is not only a5

days, we have been fighting for 18 years and a5 days. and we are fighting for democracy in venezuela and that is the reason people are on the streets. they are making huge demonstrations, not only in caracas, but all over venezuela. unfortunately, the answer from the government has been repression. yesterday, two people were killed, very young, 16 years and 33 years. every day we have the same routine of repression and violence and it is very important for you to know that we are fighting in the streets, just for democracy, just for trying to get a democratic pass in order to get free elections in venezuela. free elections that are not planned in our constitutions, but maduro denies the right to the people to vote in elections, so we have only the streets as a space to fight for our rights and democratic rights in venezuela.

as a responsible political leader and you are the president of the national assembly, you're one of the leaders of the justice first party, do you not have a responsibility at some point, when you look at the bloodshed and you point out, many of the people who have lost their lives are students, they are young people. do you not have a responsibility to say to the protesters, in your own party and far beyond your own party, enough is enough? the bloodshed, the cost, it is too high? yes, but our responsibility is to bring peace, democracy and freedom to venezuela. we are living in a venezuela which is like a bad copy of cuba. there are no rights in venezuela, there is no food, there is no medicines, there is no opportunities. thousands and thousands of young people are leaving venezuela in order to look for a future in other countries. so, it is not only a political confrontation in venezuela,

it is a vital, existential, based on values, confrontation in venezuela. if you see the people who are demonstrating in the streets, we see every kind of people, young people, old people, politicians, social activists, unemployed people. so it's all venezuelan people against maduro. it's not only a political confrontation. do you really think that these protests are going to get maduro out of power? that is the call from the protesters. he has got to go, they say, but there is absolutely no sign of him going anywhere. well, we are fighting for some values. we have no time and no other way to fight for. freedom, justice, democracy — you have to remember,

steve, that the only thing they have is ordering the coup d'etat that maduro gave to the parliament. they almost closed all the parliament, and the venezuelan people went to the streets in order to defend democracy and to defend separation of powers, and to defend their rights to vote and to defend their rights to have a free economy. so we have a very deep fight in venezuela, and when you face a government that has no intention to open for a democratic agenda, so, for venezuelan people, there is no other way, than to fight in the streets. and people are willing, and with emotion, to fight for their countries. but venezuelans also have a sense of history, and they know that in 201a, very soon after maduro came to power, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to try and get him out, claiming that that election was illegitimate. he faced down the protesters and he won that battle.

and then we can fast—forward to last year, when you and many colleagues demanded a recall election. and again, you believed that you could bring maduro to his knees. but he outlasted you again, and i would put it to you that there is every sign this time around that maduro is going to outlast you yet again. yeah, but we are taking some good advantage. the international community has a very clear and very needed view about maduro as a dictatorship. venezuelan people have a very strong position. it's not a minority, but a huge majority, almost 80%, 85% of the people, who are completely sure that maduro will have to be out of power, because he did a coup d'etat in venezuela. julio borges, you know that in democracies, you do not run governments by opinion poll, you run them by elections. and let us not forget that nicolas maduro, whether you like it or not, he has an elected mandate. he won the presidential election

after hugo chavez died at the end of 2013. he is due to be, according to his mandate, president of venezuela until the very end of 2018. that is the mandate. yes — no, but listen. you have to rule the country by one constitution, and the constitution said that last year we had to have governors' elections, and maduro didn't want to make it. we should have a recall referendum, and maduro stopped it. this year, we should have had the regional elections and maduro stopped them. so, it cannot be one constitution for maduro and one constitution for the venezuelan people. that's it, the core of the problem. right now in venezuela, we have no constitution at all, and we only have the will of maduro, and he decides whether we have elections or not in venezuela. this is not fair, it is not

democracy, and we are fighting precisely, steve, for having a democratic path, which is elections in venezuela. so we are fighting for trying to bring the constitution out for our political life. we are trying to fight within the constitution. this is a huge difference. we are calling for democracy, maduro is calling for violence. well, maduro says that you, in particular, and he identified you as an individual, julio borges, he said that you are the coup master, and what you really want is a coup. and i have to say, looking at some of your comments of late, one of your comments saying it is time for the men in green, that is the armed forces, to, quote, break their silence. are you suggesting, implicitly, that you want to see the security forces, in particular the army of venezuela, refuse to follow orders? well, we are calling to the army force in venezuela to precisely help venezuelan people, not opposition, to help venezuelan people

to have the rule of constitution and democracy in venezuela. let me tell you again... well, forgive me, but the armed forces are supposed to follow the orders of the commander in chief, the president of the country. i do not see how it is being constitutional to imply that you want to see all of the armed forces of venezuela mutiny, which appears to be what you are suggesting to happen. no, because there is a huge difference, steve, between a chief commander which is acting as the head of the venezuelan government, with maduro, who is acting and delivering orders to the armed forces as the head of a political party. what we don't want is an army force with political colours,

which is part or belongs to a political party. that's the real problem. we want independent institutional and democratic army force. that's the core of the problem. we are calling for an army force, not for opposition. we are calling for an army force to respond to democratic institutions in venezuela, not political parties. the one who has colour with political parties has been maduro. all right. a very simple question for you, yes or no. are you asking for the armed forces on the streets, policing the demonstrations, and of course sometimes opening fire, we have seen that, are you asking those armed forces to refuse to follow orders? absolutely. i think that to fight against human rights, it has to be called, in order to operate in the consciousness of each guardian that it's breaking the human rights of the venezuelans. and there is no way that you, steve, can justify that an undemocratic government can make such a demonstration of violence against the people, when people

are demonstrating in a very pacific way, just for asking for elections in venezuela. there is no proportion of people, a people who is young people demonstrating for a peaceful solution, which is owed, and repression from the government, against their human rights. even putting people under the jurisdiction of the military, which is against the constitution, is against human rights. so we have to ask for consciousness, for fighting for our human rights in venezuela, and not for repression. well, the problem you have is that you have a track record, and of course maduro and the people in the government constantly refer to it. you're known as someone who supported the attempted military coup against hugo chavez in 2002, and we know from leaks in wikipedia

that appeared in the years afterwards, that your party had very close ties to the united states, and that there appeared to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of us dollars that were funnelled into your party from ngos that were funded by the united states. so there are many people in the regime who say that you are nothing more than an agent of the united states, the imperial power. that's propaganda, and this is very easy to demonstrate, steve. let's go to an election and let the people decide if i am an agent of the imperial power, or i represent some leadership in venezuela. so it's very easy to demonstrate that you have to provide people the opportunity through the vote to decide which future they want in venezuela, and i'm absolutely sure that the political movement that we have created, with so many young leaders in venezuela, is right now the choice, the future, to decide what venezuela wants, for a modern venezuela. so it's very easy. let the people vote

and let the people decide which future they want. the person who is refusing that is maduro. on may the 5th, i believe, you had a meeting with vice president mike pence and i think you also met with the national security adviser hr mcmaster. did you ask them for american help, and specifically did you ask them to go beyond targeted sanctions on individuals and impose economic sanctions on venezuela has a whole? not at all. impossible. we are building, in north america, and mainly in latin america, a kind of group or team of countries which can help venezuela in this crisis. we have talked with the president of panama, we have talked with the president of peru, argentina, brazil, chile, mexico and all of them are really

worried about venezuela for one reason — venezuela is not only a local problem, right now, it is a regional problem and we are asking for the help of the community, of the latin american community, in order to try and bring and build a democratic agenda right here in venezuela and the chief aim of this agenda is letting people vote. this is very clear, there is no other way of letting people vote in order to build a solution. the thing is, you have talked throughout this interview as though the opposition is united, the trouble is that the opposition is nowhere near united, there are 21 different opposition parties, you have a history of being divided, you individually have had fights with other opposition leaders, frankly, often times, the venezuelan opposition, has been fighting amongst itself like rats in a sack. so why would the outside world or indeed the venezuelan people take

seriously this proposition that if you were to get an election and a few in the short—term opposition alliance against maduro were to win, that you could actually govern coherently, because you're so disunited? well, sorry, but that is not true, steve. i am the president of the parliament and the president of the party and i am the head of a coalition, which has ia political parties within the coalition. what we have realised is unity, that is something we are very proud of that. there is no election in venezuela in which we have presented two candidates, only one candidate from the opposition, versus one candidate from the government. we have only our unique platform. we have only one message in the campaigns, we have a system of rule for election by referendum and the priority of candidates. we have a strong position.

i understand that you only put up one candidate against maduro and you insisted you have one message which is that there must be elections and maduro must go, but that is not good enough. you have been telling me that the venezuelan people are suffering, the shops are empty, the hospitals have no drugs, the economic system is broken and yet when i look at what you are putting forward, you're not telling the venezuelan people how you would solve the crisis they are living through. you do not have a coherent platform and many of your parties have very different visions of what you would do with the chavista socialist system. listen, steve, the way we are living in venezuela is a tragedy. so, it is not that we are facing a bad government, a regular bad government as you would have in any country. we are living in a real tragedy, people are dying because they are hungry, people are dying because they have no medicines, people are in the streets eating

from the garbage and we are living in what is one of the most richest countries in the world. so, what we have in venezuela is a pre—ideological problem. we have to fight not for very fancy public policies, we have to fight for a government who gives us democracy, a government that has checks and balance, the rule of law, and in all this, we are very united, not only as an opposition, but as a people, as venezuela. there is no problem with that, because we are living in such a tragedy. but with the greatest of respect, i havejust, as you know, been in venezuela and i have spoken to a lot of people in different parts of the country, and in different economic situations, from the rather posh suburb where you happen to live, to some of the poorest slums where some of the most loyal die—ha rd chavistas lives.

the impression i get is that many people are very alienated from maduro, but there is still a hard core of support for chavismo, for the idea of a socialist bolivarian revolution, and if you get rid of maduro, it seems to me that there is a real risk of civil strife, maybe full—scale civil war in venezuela. are you prepared to run that risk? well, i do not agree with that picture. first of all, steve, chavista live in the most riches, urbanisation and other portions of the city. i am not talking about the members of the government, i am talking about ordinary people, some of whom do believe that hugo chavez is the reason that they can afford some sort of an accommodation, have a job, have a better economic existence

than they had when your class was in power in venezuela in the 1980s and early 1990s. at that time, i was 20 years old. sorry. but i can tell you something, these people, right now, they know that maduro has destroyed what they praised for chavez. right now, the chavista and maduro bases are only 10% or i2% of the population. and we know that we can have a future in the government and we can bring those people for a new venezuela and a very united venezuela. i do not see at all any problem or chance of confrontation, because there is no symmetrical proportions, because there is almost a very unanimous position against maduro, we are talking 90% of the population is against maduro. it is not half of the population, it's 90% of the population, so i do not see any risk of having a democratic path and having a very inclusive, you are right on that, a very inclusive speech and very

inclusive policies in order to bring together a whole country. let me ask you a personal question, you have four young children, you know what is happening in your country today, i mean, one of the most high—profile opposition leaders, leopoldo lopez, after the last round of mass demonstrations, he was convicted of incitement, he has got ia years in a military prison. you have been attacked with a metal pipe. you have been beaten up. in the last month, you have been tear—gassed, it's very probable, given what maduro has said about you personally in recent days, you're going to end up in prison, too, perhaps in military prison, for many years, are you ready for that? well, i am ready forfighting, i am ready for what we believe in venezuela. we are ready for fighting for the values that make democracy strong, splendid and great for venezuela. all of us take the risk — yesterday, two young people died, and they were not ready for that —

but we are being positive, we believe that all venezuelans know, all venezuelans are very aware that we are fighting for something that we have to do, we need to do everything we can in order to create a country for all of us. we have to fight with that in mind. one thing on which you and maduro would agree, you have talked about the need for inclusivity. maduro in recent days has said, we need to get a dialogue going, he has the idea of a constituent assembly, to develop a new constitutional framework for venezuela and he wants you and the opposition tojoin the dialogue. are you prepared to do that? you have kept saying no in the recent past. you know that this proposal

of maduro is a real fraud, because it will not be a constitution, it will not be elected by the people, it will be something like the congress of mussolini, where the people were appointed by sectors and not directly by the people, so it is a real fraud, it is a copycat for cuba. 0k, well, julio borges, we have to end there, but thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk.

i know many gardeners in england wanted some rain but i suspect some of those gardens may be water—logged now after what happened during wednesday. this is one soggy picture from lincolnshire. a0 millimetres. many of you had 20—a0 millimetres of rain. a few showers in northern ireland in scotland. a fresher feel to things over the next few days. slightly cooler air. noticeably fresher. humid. sunshine. it will feel warmer. the sun will

come out after a cloudy start in east anglia. elsewhere, plenty of blue skies. looking at things at 8am. sunshine in the channel islands after the wet weather on wednesday. plenty of blue sky in east england. a cloudy start. showers from the word go. you might get one in wales, north—west england. northern ireland, a dry start, but don't be fooled. showers breakout. 0ne ireland, a dry start, but don't be fooled. showers breakout. one or two in western part of scotland to begin the day. thursday. looking at how the day. thursday. looking at how the weather develops. the risk of catching a slow—moving and possibly thundery downpour. hail as well. be the showers in scotland. —— beefy. and isolated shower in the midlands late in the day. a fresher feel to things. pleasant in the sunshine. things cool down as the showers

moved through. some showers continuing through thursday evening. thursday night and friday morning. rain in the east of england. during friday, that could move across more of the uk, the bulk of england and scotland, through the day. uncertainty still about the weather system. keep checking the forecast. elsewhere on friday, sunshine and showers again, with temperatures into the mid—teens. cooler where there is persistent rain rather than showers. wet weather close by during the weekend. rain during scotland's weekend. pleasant in the sunshine. cool with the showers. fresh with the sunshine. a fresher feel to days and cooler nights to come. i'm rico hizon in singapore, the headlines a special prosecutor —

robert mueller — is appointed to investigate alleged russian interference in the us election. as an islamic court in aceh orders two men to be caned for having gay sex we look at the use of sharia law in the indonesian province. i'm kasia madera in london. also in the programme. dedicated to duterte — why the philippines president commands mass respect at home despite his controversial polices. and tackling class discrimination in india. we speak to one of india's best—selling authors about his latest bollywood adaptation.