marianne, john fisher burns of the new york times, and the british—somali journalist and writer at prospect magazine, ismail einashe. welcome to you all. we will begin with the migrant crisis. we talked about it not that long ago but it is an issue that is absolutely not going away. we have a great opportunity to discuss first—hand the issue and some of the problems facing europe as it struggles to cope with wave after wave of migrants. ismail, you've just returned from italy, which is bearing the brunt of this tide of humanity escaping war, famine, and people smugglers. what did you find? well, the last several years italy has become europe's‘s migrant

bottleneck. since 2014 500 thousand have arrived on italian shores. this year alone 94,000 have arrived in five days a couple of weeks ago 11,000 raved. —— arrived. i've been talking to many of those who make the dangerous journey, often from countries such as gambia, nigeria and from eastern parts of africa. these are young men who often head out into the unknown across africa, who arrived in libya which is currently in the civil war. from there they set off on a dangerous journey into the unknown where they get rescued and they arrived in these tiny, cut—off, isolated towns after they get rescued in italy. italy is not coping with this crisis. the italian prime minister paolo gentiloni described it as unbearable and in the last few days there has been a conference in tunis

between african and european ministers, and also italy has said in the last few days that it may shut its ports to rescue boats. also italy has threatened to actually give migrants who are in limbo in these southern towns in italy and sicily visas to head north. in retaliation, austria has said they may send a battalion of troops to the italian border to stop the influx of people heading north. we will talk about the responsibilities of other eu countries, the fact italy says it can't cope. i'm interested in some of the personal stories. what were the reasons people by giving you for why they left wherever they had come from? whether it's from eritrea, where young men are skipping conscription and a state that persecutes people, but most of these stories are really young people. they are probably 14-18,

young people. they are probably 14—18, largely african. a lot of them from western africa. big come for a multitude of reasons but primarily you might describe them as being migrants. they often come in search of a european dream. in these countries, people often hear about europe through social media and facebook and they see their friends in europe and they say, i want a slice of that. they embark on these dangerous journeys across africa into italy, many of them then find that this european dream sours and they'll stock in these reception centres in these italian villages. in these villages actually, for example there has been real problems with corruption. in one of them in calabria the mafia run an operation for ten years costing the italian government tens of millions of euros. the response of other european countries, we were discussing this last week, is what? the figures are growing year—on—year on year. this week we had emmanuel

macron holding a summit with the main rivals in libya, trying to resolve the political crisis. libya is the platform. you know, they go through libya and risking their lives through the mediterranean. there is a boom in human traffickers there. obviously italy didn't take it very well. they consider libya as being the former colony, it is part of their remit. on the other hand, i've been crossing the french italian border to ten years and you see the evolution. the french police now, all the high—speed trains going through the alps have to wait longer and longer. you know you're going to be delayed by at least 20—30 minutes and it's getting longer, because you

have the french police catching migrants on the trains or outside. you've got this mini—calais's now. also on the outskirts of paris. what we are talking is a european crisis. of course there is the political asylu m of course there is the political asylum seekers, and there's the economic migrants. but it creates this huge migration problem. can i suggest that we should use the word crisis for those people who have to leave their homes. uganda, which is my old home country from which i was exciting 45 years ago, in the last year has taken 500,000 refugees from south sudan. what has uganda done? uganda is one of the poorest nations in the world. uganda has given

groups of them, or family groups, a plot of land. the idea that we europeans, and i do consider myself, i will always be a european, brexit or not brexit, i consider myself pa rt of or not brexit, i consider myself part ofan or not brexit, i consider myself part of an extraordinary continent with extraordinary history. if what is going on is a failure, is a massive failure to understand libya wasn't the place it is before the french and the brits went into libya. i'm not a friend of colonel gaddafi but surely we are intelligent enough to know that we we nt intelligent enough to know that we went there and created the situations which has made some of this possible. which is why people wa nt to this possible. which is why people want to leave. i would be really interested in finding out about this conference. it is partly the fault of african leadership that is creating this misery for their people. having spent some time in libya during the uk french and sometime american military

operations that toppled colonel gaddafi, i think it's fair to say that colonel gaddafi played a role in this by opening libya to the northward migration of tens of thousands of migrants from sub saharan africa, who were in a state that silly desperation by the time that silly desperation by the time that conflict began. —— in a state of absolute desperation. they were trying to get out of libyan territorial waters and it was that which began and sent a signal that there was a way out of the misery. that leads me to a more general point, i spent 50 years as a correspondent, much of it in the more desperate parts of the world. i've approach myself for not having realised that this divide between north and south, between rich and poon north and south, between rich and poor, between white and black, was unsustainable. that modern technology and particularly cable and satellite tv which brought images of the rich western world

into the smallest communities of what we call the third world, was bound to lead to tens of thousands, ultimately millions of people wanting to make it to our world. i think whatever technical adjustments we make, that's a fact we are going to have to deal with. part of it is that the eritreans aren't doing it to get our fancy cars and lifestyle. they are living totally, totally devastated lives in eritrea. the african leadership over how many decades has failed their people. if it was you or i in that situation, what would we do? if we had the wherewithal what would we do? those who want to try to control the numbers would argue that is precisely the point of international development, and that is why money should be spent to make life better for everyone, no matter where they live, so they don't want to leave home at its most simple. there is an

unspoken subject which is somewhere needs to be properly debated, which is overpopulation amongst the poorest. that is what i was going to say. you said, john, unsustainable. no one is talking about the birth rate in africa. some people do but not enough. two weeks ago african leaders said the word for the first time and they said we must control in some francophone parts of africa we are talking about eight children per woman. christian american fundamentalists are in africa, absolutely opposing contraception, abortion, all of those things that we re abortion, all of those things that were freely available at one time. there's a kind of tightening of the very thing that would stop it, and education. there is another aspect of this crisis which is not the world, and i travelled the 40 or 50 yea rs, world, and i travelled the 40 or 50 years, and the way we cover that

world, was guided basically by the united nations charter of human rights. human rights was the measure by which wejudge rights. human rights was the measure by which we judge the performance of governments all over the world. the fa ct governments all over the world. the fact is we are now in the face of a crisis, where european peoples in particular are being asked to choose between the charter of human rights on the one hand, and maintaining their societies as they apparently, according to every referendum and vote one has thing, what they would a p pa re ntly vote one has thing, what they would apparently wish to do. which is not allowing this vast migration northward. how we're going to resolve that i don't know, personally identify solutions. fundamentally, to resolve this endless crisis on europe's's borders, is going to take a lot more than having an effective rescue mission which the european union ought to have. in the last few years the eu has effectively pursued a policy which lets migrants died in

europe's's sees to deter others from coming. fundamentally the root causes of far from the borders. they are to do with youth population and i think we need to think bold about a plan for africa. european leaders are very much zeroed in on short—term political calculations. they aren't thinking longer term. there needs to be longer term solutions to the root causes in eritrea, gambia, nigeria, which stops people from going further north. actually, i have reports in these countries that when people leave it is of detriment of those societies because the best and brightest leaves. we talk about the flood, what sort of numbers can we put on it at this stage? in italy according to the un, 94,000 have landed this year which i think is a 17% increase on last year. reports suggest there are 300,000 people

currently waiting in libya in horrendous conditions in these centres. of course just add, this is the summer centres. of course just add, this is the summer season so centres. of course just add, this is the summer season so it tends to be a peak. the numbers are going to increase, this crisis isn't going to go away. this reveals the fault lines and divides in europe. unfortunately italy is struggling and the italian government feels that this should be looked at as a pan—european problem. the northern countries are seeing this as a problem on europe's's periphery for greece and italy. peer research amongst eu countries, the british are the largest number living abroad. ijust are the largest number living abroad. i just thought are the largest number living abroad. ijust thought i would throw that in. british people, indigenous british people, have always gone abroad. this was a good and interesting figure in the research study. we are going to move on.

president macron has talked about hotspots for asylum seekers. certainly in this country, in london we read a raft of reports about how he is suddenly not that popular after all. is that true? where do you see his still relatively early presidency? it's interesting, president macron sells like trump does. there was a slight drop in the polls because of the resignation of the top army chief. that's what it's down to. now the crux of the matter, really, and we'll see what he's made of, is going to happen after a lull of, is going to happen after a lull of the summer. after which he is actually going to meet face—to—face with the trade unionists. probably

in the street with protests because he intends, at least that is what he said, to reform massively labour laws and things that french presidents have said they would be doing over the last 50 years. so we'll see. it's interesting, he's com pletely we'll see. it's interesting, he's completely new. most of us look at him not knowing exactly what he's made. we are a bit like charles darwin and his study looking at a new species! laughter we are quite hopeful it's going to work. we have no idea whether will. he's different from francois hollande which can only be a good thing. this flurry of reports that he's trying to achieve what tony blair did in 1997 with london the cool city to live in. we don't talk much about macron being a tony blair in france, we tend to look at him as a... in the 70s he

was a modern man. he was young at the time and trying to implement new things. but he loves the palace and he loves the backdrop. somebody said he'sa he loves the backdrop. somebody said he's a bit like one of the old kings. we call him jupiter. jesus? i haven't heard that yet! it's because he had his picture taken with rhianna. let's talk about events in the us. if we got the start was colourful with trump's harsh tweets aboutjeff colourful with trump's harsh tweets about jeff sessions colourful with trump's harsh tweets aboutjeff sessions and the policy aboutjeff sessions and the policy about tra nsgender people aboutjeff sessions and the policy about transgender people in the armed forces, the last few days have surpassed that. there seems to be all out war in the west wing with his new communications director anthony scaramucci rattling off

expletives about senior colleagues. now one of them, reince priebus has already gone. all of that is a backdrop to something else, the failure for the third time of donald trump to overturn 0bamacare, the affordable care act. john fisher burns, what is going on?” affordable care act. john fisher burns, what is going on? i can only shake my head. i think all of us who love america and people of our generation have many reasons to do that. our prosperity and freedoms have been sustained in many ways by the united states throughout my lifetime. 0ne the united states throughout my lifetime. one can only look upon these developments with a sense of grief. it seems to me it's beyond redemption. this isn't likely to be a presidency that lasts five years. it might even be a presidency that doesn't last one year. how does it end? the word impeachment is written on the horizon. that could be a nasty fight, because of course there

would be large majorities needed first of all to vote on articles of impeachment and second novel to a trial with the majority that would be needed in order to oust trump from office. it seems to me that if we think of that as the salvation of america, it's pretty short—sighted. trump is the symptom not the cause of america's malaise. there is a deep malaise that has been developing for decades in america. large numbers of people feeling excluded from the benefits of government. no matter what happens to trump, that problem will still be there to be resolved. i suppose, ever the optimist, i think maybe america's reached a point as it did for example before the civil war, and in the depth of the depression, when somebody emerges, does the times make the man or the man make

the times? abraham lincoln, fdr, who somehow sets about binding up the wings of the nation. let's hope that there is somebody. it may be somebody we don't know of or somebody we don't know of or somebody who is currently a minor figure on the political horizon, who can somehow bring salvation to america out of all of this. i'd like to partake in john america out of all of this. i'd like to partake injohn requa's gravity. we choose to ignore trump because this is too much to follow every day. we have to catch up like a tv series. we are being sarcastic or ironic or we laugh, but essentially we are talking about the united states of america. this is, you know, terrible. this is tragic what's happening. i agree, the united states used to be great. it isn't any more. if there was a comparison, i was thinking... we are talking about dark hours of history for america. pulse of people who voted for donald trump suggest them

vast majority are still glad they did so. they don't regret that vote. there is a measure of the underlying malaise. 63 million people were not duped. these people knew what they wa nted duped. these people knew what they wanted and they wanted trump. there is another aspect to this which is not enough is being spoken about, which is the book byjane meyers, dark money, and some of the research being done on the really sinister group of very rich people who have as their mission, and trump is one of the planned products of this. steve bannon is among them, who are determined to change the face of liberal democracies. to create states of hardly any taxation for the rich. there's something else beside the disillusionment, really planned bringing down of the states as we once knew it. to pick the

theme around the liberal democracies and the malaise, when trump came to europe, immediately after he left hungary and after he left poland, there was a retreat in those countries in terms of that liberal democracy. i think trump exemplifies, and it's interesting john was saying he's the symptom not the cause of the malaise growing for decades in america. that's notjust true in the us, it is true in the uk. we've had r.n. situation with brexit. it's true in other countries. even in france, you might celebrate macron for now, how long will that last? is macron merely a coverfor will that last? is macron merely a cover for something will that last? is macron merely a coverfor something much deeper? what's been really worrying is that on all the important thing is that america ought to be engaging on with its climate change, dealing with terrorism, whether it's dealing with the consequences of the financial crash, america has retreated. i think perhaps americans might

realise too late that trump has done too much damage. i'm aware of european smugness about this. it seems to me we'll see this in the next weeks and months with macron pro and his coming fight with the labour unions. he wouldn't be the first french president to lose that fight. europe has a deep malaise of its own. is europe itself reform abel? if europe proves to be unreformable, and the status of economic or bring europe down, brexit. to look different. i do think it's time for us to celebrate or be smug about what's happening in america, i think we have our own crisis to deal with. i don't think anybody here is, we are taking it very seriously that the causes aren'tjust

very seriously that the causes aren't just disillusionment by very seriously that the causes aren'tjust disillusionment by a population. there is concerted action going on by people to bring down liberal democracies.” appreciate you feel there are darker forces at work. john, on the topic of policy, this is six months into this administration. i'm curious whether anybody feels the soap opera element of it and anthony scaramucci and everything that is distracting ina soap and everything that is distracting in a soap opera wade is deliberately done to distract from policy. because what has been achieved, he couldn't sort out 0bamacare.“ because what has been achieved, he couldn't sort out 0bamacare. if we we re couldn't sort out 0bamacare. if we were able to determine that there was some sort of russia now i'm this, it appears to me there is none —— rationale. it is a president who lives from tweet tweet and it is positively frightening. i see no order emerging from this chaos, short of some radical constitutional move, which now to me begins to look more and more likely. are there no

policy achievements at all in the six months? i wouldn't hesitate to say that but that would lead us into highly controversial debates about what is good and what is bad. you would have to say overall, the record has been one of failure. you said perhaps the person who will, as you would see it, change things, is someone you would see it, change things, is someone who is as yet unknown to us all? is there no one? is there anyone in the republican party who feel the same way? there are and we've seen it this week in debate on health care in the senate. there are some very fine people in the united states congress. maybe there are people we aren't sure of yet like nikki haley the ambassador to the united nations. just one name. maybe there is somebody who can show some sort of sense of historic responsibility and perspective, who

can begin to bind these winds. responsibility and perspective, who can begin to bind these windsm fills the ball is in the core top republicans. they have to do their job, and to start thinking about their fast. they have two tidy the mess. i mean, they make me think, trump makes me think of petain, the darkest hour was france in the 20th century. the republican party members as well. they really need to do something. it's not that the democrats, the democrats lost the election. i think we need to have an optimistic view of this. america has had a tremendous potential throughout its history to get itself into big trouble, but it's also shown tremendous potential to get itself out of trouble. i wish i shared your americanness! you've dared to end on a note of optimism, john, thank you! that's all we have time for this week. enjoy your summer breaks, if you're

getting one! do join us again next week, same time same place. thank you for watching goodbye. we've got some fairly unsettled weather on the cards through the weekend. it's not going to be a write—off. there is some sunshine around too. he is the view taken in eastern scotland this morning. fairly well broken cloud there. a decent morning for many places. as the third test continues at the

0val, dry to start off but later this afternoon we are going to see that rain rolling in. i think that will affect play at times, with the breeze picking up too. many southern parts of england will see outbreaks of rain, with this front pushing its way slowly northwards. to the logbook that, sunshine and showers is going to be the story of day, with low pressure sitting to the north—west of the uk. some of those showers pushing in across scotland and northern ireland. some sunshine in between, slightly drierfurther south across northern england, north wales and the midlands with just the odd shower. equally, bright and dry weather in between any showers. further south outbreaks of rain through much of the afternoon. anywhere along the south coast of england, right up towards parts of east anglia, perhaps 0xford as well. outbreaks of rain accompanied with brisk winds in the south—east along the english channel. lots of people heading towards france today. we'll see a spell of across much of england and wales —— spell of rain

across much of england and wales tonight. further showers moving in around the north and west coast of the uk. temperatures down to 12—15d. tomorrow this first area of low pressure clears fairly quickly away from the east coast. bringing more persistent rain with it. then we are left with sunny spells and scattered showers, again with that low pressure sitting out towards the north—west. most of the showers to start on sunday will be around northern and western parts. then they will move eastwards. there could be the odd heavy thundery shower. temperatures between 16—21, slightly on the cool side. feeling cooler with those shower than the breeze around too. no —— low— pressure breeze around too. no —— low—pressure staying with us. a hint of high pressure building in from the south. plenty of showers in the north—west for monday and tuesday, things turning a bit drier and a bit warmer towards the south—east. that's it for now, goodbye.

this is bbc news. the headlines: more turmoil at the white house — donald trump names generaljohn kelly as his next chief of staff after days of public infighting. john kelly will do a fantasticjob. general kelly has been a star, has done an incredible job thus far, respected by everybody, a great, great american. fireworks and bottles are hurled at police in east london during a protest over the death of a man who was restrained by police last week. north korea boasts its latest missile tests proves that the whole of the us mainland is within range will.