the businessman who describes himself as the ultimate dealmaker has just lost two of his top panel figures. a wave of resignations from two advisory panels prompted mr trump to announce that both bodies had been scrapped. at least 100 children are among 400 people killed in mudslides in the capital of sierra leone, freetown. there's grief and anger in freetown as authorities are blamed for hampering rescue efforts — at least 600 people are still missing after monday's mudslide. it is believed that at least 200 children received military training. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. for more than two decades,

the anc has been south africa's impregnable political structure, but now cracks are appearing. at least 30 anc mps defied the party whip and supported a no confidence motion against party leader and national president, jacob zuma. cue bitter recriminations. my guest today is pravin gordhan, the man president zuma sacked as finance minister in controversial circumstances earlier this year. does the anc need to be broken up to enable south africa to thrive? pravin gordhan in johannesburg, welcome to hardtalk thank you, thank you for having me. long distance as it might be. let's consider what is happening in your country today and particularly the fallout from the motion of no—confidence against presidentjacob motion of no—confidence against president jacob zuma, which motion of no—confidence against presidentjacob zuma, which didn't succeed, but got 177 votes, which was significant. it clearly included

a substantial number of anc mps. how toxic is the atmosphere inside the anc as a result of that vote? there certainly is an active debate and discussion of ideas. to answer questions that you have raised in your introduction, the anc is still absolutely crucial to south africa's future, the values, programmes and policies of the anc are extremely releva nt policies of the anc are extremely relevant now and possibly for the next decade or two, they are policies that can still banned this nation together and increase prospects for south africa. however, to be frank, we have gone through a period of disclosures which has demonstrated to south africans and the world that the state machinery and resources are being used in the

wrong kind of way. it is important to distinguish between the anc as an organisation and its values and programmes on the other hand, and individuals who currently, in the view of many, don't perform their responsibilities in accordance with those values. you talk about the need to be frank. in that spirit, the chief whip of the anc said that there should be a disciplinary process for all those mps who voted for the motion of no confidence in jacob zuma. do you agree? he is reported as having said that there should have been a witch—hunt. this isa should have been a witch—hunt. this is a moment where we need to step back a bit as an organisation and reflect on what are the reasons for ending up where we are today. and in a self—critical way, as many documents of the anc, formally

presented at the meetings indicate, they are things to reflect on. amongst others, why do we have so much corruption and what do we do about it? ways this corruption about one family and a broader syndicate, and what does it have in terms of impacts on the state, and there are billions of dollars of public money, they are putting that money into different accounts in different parts of the world? and finally, how do we unite the organisation in line with nelson mandela and his values? i want to talk about those issues of governance in some detail, but sticking with what is happening inside the anc for a bit longer. it was a secret ballot, nobody needed to tell anyone else how they voted in that vote. but how did you vote? as we said, it was a secret ballot.

like myself and a number of others who said our conscience would guide us, and in addition, we have a seminal judgement us, and in addition, we have a seminaljudgement from the constitutional court and an equally seminal statement from the speaker of our parliament, which indicates that the oath we have taken in the parliament is an oath to the republic and the constitution. finally, our duty lies with the people of south africa. finally, our duty lies with the people of south africalj finally, our duty lies with the people of south africa. i think i am quite experienced at reading between the lines and i think i understand what you are saying. i note that on july 18, you clearly said, it is time forjacob zuma to move aside. so we can assume you voted for the motion of no confidence, i think. how do you feel when the police minister has talked about the need for a lie detector test to sort out who stayed loyal and who was

disloyal to jacob zuma ? who stayed loyal and who was disloyal to jacob zuma? how would you react to being faced with a lie detector test? in the first instance, i think the police minister is misdirecting his energy. he should take the lie detector equipment to the area where the ra ptors equipment to the area where the raptors reside and others visit and ask them to declare to the south african public in the world how much money they are taking from the public and if we can have it back —— guptas. the second issue is that the alliance members have raised this issue today, and the south african communist party, the issue is, why is attention given to a certain number of anc employees who may have crossed the line, so to speak, but there are a range of corrupt activities that are not being given the same attention. you keep

tempting me to get directly onto the issue of corruption, you have already introduced the guptas to this, the successful business family at the centre... there is belle pottinger as well. you expressed the thought that the anc remains crucial to south africa's future and you have expressed your loyalty. discussing the atmosphere inside the party today. reading social media and other reports, i know that you have faced threats since the vote of no—confidence. 0ne have faced threats since the vote of no—confidence. one person in particular said, no—confidence. one person in particularsaid, quoting no—confidence. one person in particular said, quoting not mean i saw on social media, said that you should be necklaced, a term used during the apartheid. are you frightened right now about the sort

of anger and toxic atmosphere inside your party, some directed at you personally? no, there is reason to be concerned, there is no doubt about that. that kind of remarks, those remarks about necklacing, that is totally unwarranted. it does not represent our country at this point in time. but remember that we have a large number of people who survived the apartheid period, they have survived different types of torture and maltreatment at the hands of the apartheid regime. they, like myself, are not about to give up on the anc and the values we hold the. jacob zuma says it is a matter of loyalty —— we hold dear. during the

apartheid, many people wanted to destroy the anc, apartheid representatives themselves included. jacob zuma is saying to the south african public, if you move against me, you're notjust damaging me but the entire party, letting our enemies and opponents win. how do you respond? very simply. there is a lot of reflecting that the president needs to do about what and whom is causing damage to the reputation of the anc, resulting in the increasing lack of trust and the deficit of trust that there is between south african citizens and our organisation. 0ur african citizens and our organisation. our aim is african citizens and our organisation. 0uraim is to african citizens and our organisation. our aim is to increase the level of trust to sustain the support for the south african national congress, and ensure they are ina national congress, and ensure they are in a position to win the election in 2019. others might have a short—term objective of participating in the looting of the

state for their personal benefit. let's not get ahead of ourselves talking about 2019 elections. talking about the anc choice as to who should lead the party after jacob zuma. his term runs out at the end of the year. it seems he wants his ex—wife to take over. the other leading candidate who has stood has made his intentions known. who are you backing? the anc will discuss it in september. the candidate is qualified to lead a better future for all south africans. looking at his record, he has been woven into

the governing elite of business and politics since the liberation struggle. records suggest that he has remained loyal to jacob zuma in a series of no—confidence votes and the dispute about how jacob zuma spend money on his estate. farfrom being a reformer, this is a man who has been deeply embedded in the old anc elite. that is one view. ramaphosa is one contestant, there will be other people competing for that as well. there will be a crossroads at some point. he will be able to put his credentials before you. like many others, he has strong

credentials. the creator of the national union of mineworkers. a key negotiator who gave us the basis for the first democratic elections. the 1996 final constitution in south africa as well. all of us have pluses and minuses. i think for a significant number of people, perhaps some of the minuses that you point out... it is not about what you have done or not done, the key is who has a singular adherence to the principles of the anc and is willing to take south africa out of the mess it finds itself in, particularly economically as i pointed out. we need growth well above the 0.5,1% pointed out. we need growth well above the 0.5, 1% growth. we need to create jobs on above the 0.5, 1% growth. we need to createjobs on a above the 0.5, 1% growth. we need to create jobs on a massive scale, we need investment on a massive scale.

we require not just need investment on a massive scale. we require notjust a visionary leadership, but an action orientated leadership, but an action orientated leadership that will put south africa on a different trajectory. you know there is a powerful set of voices who may be coalescing around the economic freedom fighters who say that the problem with people like ramaphosa, and possibly yourself as well, is that you don't have a radical vision. in the end, you are still in the pockets of the old elite. they have said that ramaphosa should not call himself a black south african, they have said he should call himself nonwhite as he should call himself nonwhite as he is still in the pocket of the old elite. the issue is freedom of speech and freedom of polemic in this case. the polemic... but political contestant for power, if we don't have the right leadership and don't implement the policies we have, then, like any other

democratic situation, we will lose the elections in 2019. one more political question, and then i will get onto allegations of corruption and governance. will you continue yourcampaign to see and governance. will you continue your campaign to see jacob zuma removed from office after 2017? he will no longer be the leader of anc but he will still be the president of the nation. he could and it seems will be determined to see his office through to the end of 2018. will you be advocating his removal? that will be the responsibility of the new leadership and lack the...” am just asking you... i might not even be part of that. i have not been campaigning. to a large extent, i have been a victim of very ill—advised decisions made in respect of governance in this country. downgrades, lack of

confidence, drop in investment. what we wa nt confidence, drop in investment. what we want to see, as i said repeatedly, is to turn that narrative and situation around so we have a different trajectory into the future. the leadership of the amc will be elected and they will be decide what the answer is. clearly, you will not give me a direct answer. let's talk about you and these issues. you made a point of mentioning the guptas and state ca ptu re, mentioning the guptas and state capture, the degree to which they have exercised power at the heart of government. allegations they consistently have denied but you believe them to be true. do you believe them to be true. do you believe you are fired by jacob zuma, in particularly the second firing from the finance ministry, because of influence exercised by business

interests who wanted you out?m of influence exercised by business interests who wanted you out? in the first term, i left at the end of the five—year term. in the second insta nce five—year term. in the second instance i did get fired and there isa instance i did get fired and there is a strong belief there is a link between the kind of interests and objectives this particular family have in south africa, including making sure that they interfere with the banking system and the rights in respect of having clients or not having clients interfere with the decision possibly to be made which would have enabled them to buy a bank and carry on with whatever they wa nt to bank and carry on with whatever they want to carry on with. the kind of activities going on in the state and enterprises, institutions, all of which are coming to the surface...

this is important. you heard in a recent interview, one of the guptas guptas rejecting the allegations of lea ked guptas rejecting the allegations of leaked e—mails. saying they were not authentic and denying key dramatic allegations about her example $40 million allegedly offered to the deputy finance minister if he would ta ke deputy finance minister if he would take charge of the ministry on the understanding he would do the guptas guptas bidding. there is a fundamental? . should they believe these allegations going to the top of government? is there any reason why we should believe anything that the guptas have to say. i cannot find the u in categorical terms that the deputy minister of south africa

was offered 600 million g is a bribe in order to take position as the finance minister which he rejected and, asa finance minister which he rejected and, as a consequence, he was dismissed, as i was towards the end of march this year. secondly, a number of others implicated and mentioned in the e—mails you refer to, have not contested the truth and in fact have provided explanations either to vindicate themselves at all to extricate themselves from the allegations of... guptas are you ready to see the guptas in court because they denied the allegations? it is not myjob. it is thejob of the law enforcement entities to intervene where the risk corruption in relation to the private and public sector in the rations and use

of these e—mails and other information in the public domain to enforce the laws of this country to ensure that anybody who has a business here should be lower by adding and a question that should concern at the british government is bell pottinger, creating racial tensions in this country in the course of serving the financial interests of this particular family. . hang interests of this particular family. hang on. you are throwing in lots of things at once. i will come back to bell pottinger in a second. 0ne basic question about the amc and you being a long—time member and your loyalty to it. —— anc. but what is more important getting to the truth of these allegations or the health of the a and c because if the investigation ultimately means people at the top of the anc get

damage, there may be a choice. which is your priority— getting to the truth that all protecting the amc? getting to the truth will protect the am at sea. the court in south africa has said that a commission of enquiry it needs to be appointed... we haven't not got... anc there is agreement in the anc that a commission of that nature headed by a respected judge and needs to be put in place so these allegations can be tested and evidence provided the only question is when it will be done. if the allegations are proven to be correct and we can extricate these cancer, the anc will be alive and well with the aspirations of

south african citizens and ensure our in coming and society moves in the right direction. bell pottinger, a big pr firm based in london working with the guptas guptas. 0ne thing it seems they decided would be helpful to the guptas east to undertake these narrative that says that according to the guptas problem is still the dominant of what is called white monopoly capital and to a certain extent they have a point because if one looks at the inequality in south africa today, who really holds the wealth? disproportionately it is still the white people. who owns the land? disproportionately the white people.

people in government has signally failed to address this. not quite true. remember what we have in south africa and something we constantly need to remind ourselves is a constitutional arrangement that came out the political settlement. not one side conquered the other and was able to reshape both the politics and the economy. secondly you might wa nt to and the economy. secondly you might want to remember that, as part of ensuring stability, mr mandela and his colleagues in the 1990s leading to the 1994 election they did a couple of things— they agreed to a government of national unity, secondly they agreed that a finance minister of the previous apartheid leader would continue for a short while in order to reassure the markets that nothing untoward would happen so stabilising the situation in south africa economically was

quite important for the politics to ta ke quite important for the politics to take root as well. thirdly, any amount of translation has taken place. there is a lot of hard work to do. a lot of reconstructing to do but what is happening currently in terms of the pilfering of state finances and the undermining of state institutions is delaying that project. we have to end like this, you talk about reconstructing and reforming south africa. it may be the best way to do this is that people like you to leave the anc and joina people like you to leave the anc and join a different political movement. will you ever leave the anc? after 40 yea rs of will you ever leave the anc? after 40 years of contribution to the struggle here in south africa and to the african national congress, not at this stage and remember that the anc is an organisation and is part

of our history is very close to the heart of the majority of south africans. some might be disappointed with what we have seen recently but we have to respect it has a massive support on the ground. if we get it right in december, the support will return to the anc and we will continue to reform south africa in the right kind of way.” continue to reform south africa in the right kind of way. i must thank you very much by being on hardtalk. thank you for having me. we have some wet weather crossing

the country right now but thursday is not looking too bad at all. there will be sunshine around for sure. cloud and showers but over role not a bad day. the early hours of thursday morning look like this. you can see it is still raining across many parts of eastern and central england full of some rain early on thursday morning. mild and 16 in london. 15 in newcastle. the cloud and some of that rain will drag it heals fought some of that time. in the afternoon we will get the showers are developing. through the west country, into the midlands, one to doctors around scotland and northern ireland but i suspect around yorkshire it should be relatively shiny. what about the cricket? the shower risk is not high but the chance of one or two interruptions. the forecast in the

friday, still some showers around. 0ne friday, still some showers around. one thing you will notice, the strength of the wind. it will be a windy day across the uk, particularly around western and northern areas and some showers will be last to we. better weather across the south. it will fill cooler. the wind still with us but not so strong on friday. 15 in glasgow and around 21 degrees on sunday. i will go back to what is happening right now because how we can gertjust off the coast of the united states will be a player into what sort of whether we will be getting on the weekend, come sunday. the remnants of the storm get mixed up in our usual weather patterns and some energy associated with ex— gert, bits of cloud, rain

and wind, will come our way. it will not be a hurricane and by any means but we will get some of the rain and cloud that used to be hurricane in gert. sunny spells, blustery showers and some rain around for the weekend. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. my name is mike embley. our top stories: more business leaders resign from president trump's advisory councils — in response to his stance on the charlottesville violence. he's now shut the councils down. grief and anger in freetown as the search for survivors goes on — at least 600 people are still missing in monday's mudslide. grooming the next generation. the bbc talks to former child soldiers of the so—called islamic state, now living in europe. and making his fifth

and apparently final appearance — daniel craig confirms he will return as 007.