of hurricane irma. an aid operation is underway in the british virgin islands, but many communities have yet to receive any support. in florida, the clean up has started, but millions face weeks without power. the un security council has voted unanimously to impose new sanctions on north korea as punishment for carrying out a nuclear test. the sanctions target pyongyang's ability to fund and fuel its nuclear programme. it's the ninth unanimously adopted resolution on north korea since 2006. the bbc has uncovered evidence suggesting the myanmar military is targeting rohingya muslims as they flee violence. 300,000 have crossed the border into bangladesh. many say they were attacked by security forces with guns and landmines. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen

sackur. if the african national congress, the economic movement of south africa's liberation struggle, close to the end of its productive life? so, close to the end of its productive life? s0, will its demise be quick, or slow and painful? at the end of this year, the current party leader, jacob zuma, will quit as party chief. a host of candidates, including his ex—wife, are vying to replace him. my guest is former interim president of south africa and anc store water, kgalema motlanthe. are the most respected anc members ready to contemplate a new political home? —— anc stalwart.

kgalema motlanthe, new political home? —— anc stalwart. kgalema motla nthe, welcome new political home? —— anc stalwart. kgalema motlanthe, welcome to hardtalk. in kew. thank you stephen. thank you to the viewers. —— thank you. i will start with some of your own very words. you said if the anc is no longer addressing the problems of our people, we may as well begin writing its obituary. have you written that obituary? but yet. not yet. because the obituary is to be written by the people themselves. you think it is inevitable? is not inevitable. it depends on how the anc positions itself and how it renews itself, and how it connects

to the people and we begin to understand that it exists for the sole purpose of addressing the concerns of the people. well, what the people have seen since you said that rather damning statement, what the people have seen is a raft of allegations, which can loosely put under the umbrella of accusations of state capture. that key business people, and many associated with one family, have peddled enormous amounts of influence at the heart of government. that family, the gupta family, denies it, but nevertheless, the people of south africa are deeply concerned about what they are seeing and hearing. that is right. that is right. so what i am saying is that we may have to write the victory of this organisation, my organisation, then. and things have gotten worse since then. to make the

distro. i did say at some point that before things can come right, they need to definitely get worse. -- thatis need to definitely get worse. -- that is right, i did say. as a key member of the anc, you have to decide to what extent this is a zouma —— zuma problem, and to which extent it is an institutional problem. it is a zuma problem. but it isa problem. it is a zuma problem. but it is a movement problem. you could call, i think, it is a movement problem. you could call, ithink, go it is a movement problem. you could call, i think, go back to spring, you meet a call for zuma to go. not just as party chief, but as president. yes. my belief is that if you are in the leadership position, you are in the leadership position, you have the responsibility of guiding others. whatever they get

off the rails, you have the ability to pull them back. in that same conscience should help you as well will stop and so, when, you you don't thinkjacob zuma has a conscience? , when, you know, at leadership level... you don't think jacob zuma has a conscience? the degree to which europe is in one of those figures who has a conscience, ten yea rs those figures who has a conscience, ten years you served. you are an activist through the struggle. you have been a former interim president of the country yourself. widely respected, i think it is that you say. when you stood up to read out the eulogy to one of your colleagues in the struggle, and you chose to repeat his words, that it was time

for zuma to go, so many other vetera ns for zuma to go, so many other veterans and stalwarts stood up and applauded you. did you know you were putting a nail injacob zuma's often ? putting a nail injacob zuma's often? did you feel you are doing that? no. when conscience fails you. when consciousness deserts you, you know, moral appeals account for zero. the only serve to reinforce your inability to sell criticise. so he is beyond any criticisms? edney is no difference in? it makes no difference. water off the back of a duck. —— it makes no difference to them. if you had had a vote in the secret government ballot, you would

have voted to get rid of jacob zuma, clearly. the anc in is published -- in its public messaging, it expects all of its members, wherever they are, to all of its members, wherever they a re, to follow all of its members, wherever they are, to follow their consciences. so for the anc to say it does not expect an vermette its public representatives at a national level to be guided by their consciences, thatis to be guided by their consciences, that is the wrong message. interesting that you put it that way. your focus all about conscience. many people in the anc, those loyal to jacob zuma, they say the key pillarfor those loyal to jacob zuma, they say the key pillar for understanding the anc is the notion of it still being a revolutionary liberation movement, and that that is movement still

engaged in liberation, and so has to have complete loyalty and discipline. and you have the trade that loyalty and that value of discipline. no. discipline as distinct from disciplinary procedures, means your attitude towards work, towards obligations, towards work, towards obligations, towards service to people, that is what discipline means. that is not what discipline means. that is not what jacob zuma says. he it what discipline means. that is not whatjacob zuma says. he it means confronting the enemy, and always understanding who we are and who they are. and he says, and i will quote directly, our enemies trying to destroy the anc and take control of the country are, to use his phrase, the representatives of white monopoly capital. let me tell you

what is the nub of the problem. it is that he uses himself and his name asa is that he uses himself and his name as a method for the anc. so for each one of his personal indiscretions, he expects the anc to defend him, and by so doing, he is then in a position to say well done, we have defended the anc very well. but it is the anc. you see? so you think thatis is the anc. you see? so you think that is a complete abuse of the movement? cheesemaking is a member of the anc. he is the leader of the anc. -- he is a member of the anc. so it cannot impose a substitute of his own intercessions for the anc.

it is not just jacob his own intercessions for the anc. it is notjustjacob zuma, though, is that? we have the police minister at one point talk about putting a lie detector test on anc mps who may have voted secretly for the motion of no—confidence? and one of the mps who was on us, saying that he voted with his conscience —— conscience, she now faces losing one of her key roles as chairperson because the anc seem roles as chairperson because the anc seem to want to punish. -- her conscience. if we pause and go through the anc‘s constitution, you will discover that the constitution stipulates that disciplinary procedures must never be used for suppressing views, nor for

promoting, you know, intolerance. and also to settle scores. with respect, mr kgalema motlanthe, you are losing the argument. we look at what is happening in the anc day by day, and your view of how it should work, a hearing to its constitution, there is no reality to what we see. that is my point. so you need to quit. no. at the petracca the organisation is going in the wrong direction, using? is all constitution. 0therwise what is the point of codifying, you know, procedures, and regulations. —— but the organisation is going in the wrong direction, using? butl the organisation is going in the wrong direction, using? but i am asking what is the point of their sea, today? what is its purpose? it has become so much of a caricature of the principles and values that

underlies, what is the point of a? that is the point. what is the point. —— what is the point of it. the point is the anc is still the governing party in south africa. and therefore very central in the polity of the country. now, by literally walking over its own constitution, it also shows how it repeatedly fails to add here to the constitution of the land. as the governing party. it has in its history, being in arguably a monopoly of power. but you seem to be teetering on the edge of

something important. you appear to be looking over the cliff edge, thinking, is a time permit a get out of this movement that has been so perverted? and of this movement that has been so perverted ? and get of this movement that has been so perverted? and get when you get to the cliff edge, you don't make the rational move to get out. the point is if we are to salvage the anc, that acts can only happen once it has hit the rock bottom. with respect, you don't, i don't think, think it is salvageable. a few months ago, you asked if you were to you had in the ring to run for party leadership in december. you said no, i don't think in that sense i belong to the anc, quite friendly. i don't see the value ofjoining crooked people. i think the way to relate to crooked people is to stay away from them. you have given up. the point i am making is once you have people who are incorrigible and who have proved to be so through action, and

then they organise themselves, and invite you, and said please and lead us... invite you, and said please and lead us... it is like being invited by a gang. i say the entire leadership is crooked, with a few exceptions. with a few exceptions. there are people in that leadership who are trying to stay on the straight and narrow path. and who are trying to do right, but are overwhelmed by the network of crooked people. you are walking a fine line, here, but i will invite you to keep walking. in terms of the ex—wife of the president, mrs zuma, if i can call it that, she is good to be sworn in as an anc mp, and the rumour is that she isn't to be very quickly promoted to a senior position in

cabinet in preparation, because jacob zuma clearly believes she is the best candidate to be party chief. how would you respond to that? i would not be surprised if that? i would not be surprised if that happens. she has remained on the reserve list of the anc for parliament, and so, i suppose, the reserve list of the anc for parliament, and so, isuppose, it the reserve list of the anc for parliament, and so, i suppose, it is time for her to take her place. she remained on a reserve list even during her tour of duty as the commission share. if she were to become the next head of the anc would that be a good thing or not? well, that will be up to...iam thing or not? well, that will be up to... i am asking you personally. as a senior member of the anc. would it be healthy, or not? it depends whether she gets elected. as a

consequence of the free expression of the will of the members of the anc. because if she is sponsored by a network of people who disregard anc procedures, she will be invested, and would be hamstrung in her leadership. —— indebted. invested, and would be hamstrung in her leadership. -- indebted. in brief, the other frontrunner in recent weeks and months, in this race, not of that candidates have declared yet, is cyril ramaphosa, a businessman worth hundreds of millions of dollars, his interests go across industries, and he is a renowned lover of the good life, if you put it that way. if you talk

about the crisis in the anc, would he bea about the crisis in the anc, would he be a man capable of addressing it? well, as i said, every organisation gets the leaders it deserves, because the members... we deserves, because the members... we deserve president zuma. as members of the anc. so... cyril ramaphosa, and all the others, who have raised their hands for leadership positions in the anc, have done so in spite of a directive by the national executive of the anc, which is the highest decision making structure. they have issued a directive to say, please, let's nobody begin to speak about names. let's not get too procedural. the nominations will only begin in september. let me ask

you just a very simple question with a simple answer required. who do you believe, we are looking at the individuals who have expressed an interest in being the next party leader, who would be the best one in your personal view to take the anc out of the mess it is in?|j your personal view to take the anc out of the mess it is in? i don't know, quite frankly. i don't know. and i'm trying to explain as to why iam and i'm trying to explain as to why i am nonplussed by this, because these leaders issue a directive to say that nobody must mention names. and they go out with branded regalia, and... well, they are campaigning. they run open campaigns like has never been seen before. then they go back to their meetings at the national executive committee and nobody ever asks why they believe they still enjoy credibility, because it creates a

credibility, because it creates a credibility gap. well, one thing, a huge credibility gap... if you say one thing and do the other. yes. give mea one thing and do the other. yes. give me a personal assessment. why, after a full generation, roughly 25 yea rs, after a full generation, roughly 25 years, roughly, has the anc failed to deliver the progress that the people of south africa, the black majority of south africans, believed would come with liberation? look at the figures on endemic poverty, joblessness, especially amongst the young, where it is well over 50%. inequality, 10% of the people of your country own more than 90% of the wealth. why such a record of failure? well, there are some improvements, you know, compared to the olden days of apartheid. however, this failure is really due toa number of however, this failure is really due to a number of factors. one of which

is short termism, in terms of how governments plans. you see, it works on the basis of five years. and also, weakening the state, the bureaucracy, here you have what you call permanent secretaries. in south africa we have directors general. and there has been a high turnover at that level. which means the institutional memory —— no institutional memory —— no institutional memory. every time there is a reshuffle of cabinet, the new ministers don't even give themselves a week to go into the new department to assess strengths and weaknesses. from day one, they are already accompanied i when they report for duty. —— accompanied, when they report for duty, by 14

plus bureaucrats. a new political head, and new senior managers. that is an interesting institutional take on what is wrong... it destabilises the state. because implementation is done by the state. interesting you predict that way, and institutional analysis. the more crude analysis, the way i would put it, is that one of the failings of south africa is that after liberation, the anc became institutionalised. your democracy is not really a democracy where there is genuine choice. it is, ina where there is genuine choice. it is, in a sense, a i—party monopoly. isn't it time for people like you, with all of the influence that you can wield, to actually throw in your lot with a different political perspective? the democratic alliance, for example, led a young leaders who are no longer white as they used to be in the past. why don't you send a message by actually building bridges to them? well, they

will be a realignment, certainly, of social forces in south africa. i am dead certain that a new broad front will emerge. what do you mean by that? i mean, you know, with us it is already happening, you know, there will be a broad front of competent, capable people, who will create the environment in which the best available talent in south africa... will be anc split? -- the anc. the anc has the possibility to renew itself. but it will take a lot of courage. and failing that, it has to hit rock bottom. it has to lose

elections for the penny to drop. would you like to see, hang on, would you like to see the anc lose the next election? would it be good for south africa? for as long as it is associated with corruption and failure, people will vote it out. would it be good for south africa if it were voted out? it would be good for the anc itself. and for the people of your country? let me tell you why. those elements who are in it for the largesse will quit, will desert it. and only then would the possibility arise for, you know, salvaging whatever is left of it. you seem to be telling me that if there were any election in south africa tomorrow you wouldn't vote for the anc. -- an election. well, i ama for the anc. -- an election. well, i am a member of the anc. would you vote for them? the vote is a secret.

i don't think you are making it much ofa i don't think you are making it much of a secret. i am wondering why you are not happy saying it to me, what is the only rational explanation for what you have just said, which is the only rational explanation for what you havejust said, which is that it would be good for the anc to lose an election. surely the logical conclusion is that you shouldn't vote for them. well, i will try to get them to win, but i am dead certain that at the rate at which, you know, it is sliding to the bottom, it might be good to lose the elections. you think that in the next national election in south africa the anc may lose. yes. that is extraordinary. we are talking about a party which since liberation has commanded more than 60% of congress. it is not extraordinary. political parties are established for a purpose, a specific purpose. maybe the anc has achieved that. and outlived it? yes. kgalema motlanthe, we have to ended there, but thank you to being on hardtalk. thank you,

stephen. good morning. as we go through this week, there will be a distinct autumnal flavour to our weather. and in actualfact, it will be rather cool and windy at times. some showers will be heavy, possibly with rumbles thunder. we start not on a bad note. ten or 11 degrees, so a fresh start. five or six in rural spots. a predominantly dry start to the day, maybe even some glimpses of sunshine. a scattering of showers on the west—facing coast, but into the afternoon, cloud, wind, and rain will move into northern ireland and western scotland, in particular. we'll see the first signs of it through the isles of scilly and perhaps the far south of cornwall, but for the bulk

of england and wales, in the afternoon, it is dry, sunny, with top temperatures around 15 to 18 degrees. as few isolated showers into north—west england, but the heaviest of the rain will be through northern ireland and western scotland. here, it will feel disappointingly cool for the time of year, at about 12 or 13 degrees. some of that rain will start to be quite heavy. northern isles in eastern scotland, you will see some sunshine to end the day. but it's not set to last. for the champions league football taking place in the evening, most of the matches will be dry. the rain will pep up towards the end of the match for man united. so, that area of low pressure moves in. it will take some wet and windy weather. some rain will be heavy, through the early half of the night, and winds will start to strengthen, gusting to gales or severe gales in places. if you're out on the roads, that's worth bearing in mind, and best to stay tuned to a local bbc radio station for updates. gusts of wind along the south

coast and across the high ground of scotland. 50—55mph. we really could see an intense spell of gales or severe gales in north wales and north england for a time. that pushes the rain rapidly through and leaves a trail of squally showers for wednesday. some of those heavy, possibly thundery. the showers, cool and disappointing. in the south—east, you'll escape most of the showers you'll get some sunshine. 18 degrees the high. not much anywhere change into thursday. these bands of showery rain will slip south. the winds still coming from the north—west, providing a cool source, with some frequent showers, as well. disappointing showers, 13 to 18 degrees across the country on thursday afternoon. as we move out of thursday onto friday, it's mostly repeat performance. again, we have a north—westerly wind and plenty of showers, with highs disappointing. take care. this is bbc news. i'm tim willcox. our top stories: millions face weeks

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