this is bbc news. the search for survivors of the mexico earthquake continues, with emergency crews and volunteers digging through rubble with their hands. more than 200 people are known to have been killed across the country, including at least 21 children at a school in mexico city. dozens more children are feared to be trapped. emergency officials in puerto rico say hurricane maria has knocked out power to the entire island which is home to 3.5 million people. the head of the disaster management agency said it had damaged everything in its path. the iranian president hassan rouhani has condemned president trump's speech to the un in which he called iran a corrupt dictatorship that exported violence throughout the middle east and beyond. speaking at the united nations, general assembly president rouhani called mr trump's comments ignorant and absurd. now on bbc news, stephen sackur speaks to the turkish author orhan pamuk on hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk, i'm steven sacker. in this age of the internet, we've come to accept —— expect insta nt we've come to accept —— expect instant access to knowledge but real deep understanding takes longer to acquire and to share. my guest today is one of the world's most acclaimed novelists, nobel prize winner orham pamuk. he's lived almost all of his life in istanbul, writing stories about turkey which have over decades painted a vivid picture of a country and society pulled between east and west, past and future. what is the key to understanding orham pamuk‘s turkey? orham pamuk, welcome to

hardtalk. pleased to be here. i want to start with the book, the novel that has just been published in english, the red—haired woman, your latest. it is built around relationships between fathers and sons. and ijust wonder why you were so sons. and ijust wonder why you were so drawn to that theme? in 1988i was finishing one of my novels during summer finishing one of my novels during summerand in the finishing one of my novels during summer and in the land next to me, and oldish man started digging his well and i was writing the novel and paying attention. after a while, we askedif paying attention. after a while, we asked if we could have some water and electricity and a relation developed and in the end before they left i asked them to do an

interview, that's how i operate. but what stayed with me was to things, actually. the father, like older traditional, and they were digging the well with the road hands using an axe. it was like the master well digger. he was a master well digger. something we have in istanbul since by sent him. sometimes people find buyers in time old wells so they we re buyers in time old wells so they were following this tradition. —— isn't time. what i observed was this. that master old well digger was shouting and shouting at the boy sometimes teaching him things, ordering things in a very strong authoritarian voice. we approached the novel fast. it was rough, hard, cruel. but culturally, i also paid attention to their daily lives. they

had a portable tv as in the novel. they built a tent, as in the novel. but the fatherly figure was both scolding, angry, cruel, authoritarian but at times, after hours, when the work is finished, very tender, very attentive, very elegant to the sun and this is a mark on me because perhaps, i was raised with an absent father, a father who never scolded me, who was never a father, so to speak. and why? it struck me knowing your story when you address the issue of fathers and sons, the balance between being guided authority figure but also the caring and loving figure. and it was obvious the sun in the end. you didn't have that because your father as i understand, he quit the family in istanbulfor a long understand, he quit the family in istanbul for a long period understand, he quit the family in istanbulfor a long period to find

his writer ‘s voice. istanbulfor a long period to find his writer 's voice. yes, he went to paris, following the footsteps of jean—paul sartre, going to hotels, reading his diaries. did you feel betrayed? know, and when you are a child you don't feel betrayed. and since my father was not a freudian father, a father that baudelaire would have hated opposing his son, he always said, i am your best friend and in fact, my freudian father, maybe my brother who taught me things he was stronger, my father a lwa ys me things he was stronger, my father always had fun with us and treated us as always had fun with us and treated us as if me and my brother were geniuses, never suppressed us. us as if me and my brother were geniuses, neversuppressed us. on the other hand, this other father was more attentive to the boy than my father. your book raises this fascinating question about the way in which individuals develop, the balance between being taught in being disciplined and finding your own path, you're an identity and

individual personality. —— your own identity. you seem to suggest that if the character in the book, cem, had had an active father, he might have been different and he might have been different and he might have struggled to find his own voice more. i wonder if you feel about this yourself. i am influenced by my father first because he had a good library and she was continuously reading books but never telling you have to read this, you have to read that, just being an example without doing anything and my father, this is more important, my father's heroes were not as in most of the time in turkey, soldiers, bullies, religious notables, political notables, statesman. his heroes were jean—paul sartre will —— jean—paul sartre or albert camus or other philosophical authors of that time andi philosophical authors of that time and i thought, i have to be like

that. you never said i did. and i thought, i have to be like that. you neversaid i did. in and i thought, i have to be like that. you never said i did. in the end, in those years, i was raised to bea end, in those years, i was raised to be a painter, the family, everyone around me, when i went to primary school, people said, he has so much talent, he will be a painter. i thought up until 202i would be a painter in the future but as i wrote in my book, istanbul, a screw was loose in my head and suddenly i switched to literature and was a tight? no, i prepared myself to the solitary life of a rate ——a writer. i was not prepared to give orders or ta ke i was not prepared to give orders or take orders for others during his 15 yea rs take orders for others during his 15 years and i was raised to be a painter and ready for the artistic world. it's a life you've chosen which is truly and ritualistic. solitary, even. i have come back to this thought —— individualistic. solitary, even. i come back to this

idea of novels being somewhat allegorical. it seems to me this relationship between the well digger and his apprentice who sees as a father figure and his apprentice who sees as a fatherfigure for and his apprentice who sees as a father figure for the absent father that he never really had, it is also an allegory, it seems, for turkey and a desire in turkey to look up to and a desire in turkey to look up to a figure of authority and the balance between individualism and authoritarianism in your country and today, you have president erdogan, who would like to see himself as the father of the nation, was that in your night —— your mind as you wrote this book? at the beginning, it was not in my mind. this story of fathers and sons stayed with me many, fathers and sons stayed with me any fathers and sons stayed with me many, many years, and then i thought about it, and i must confess, i have projects like that all around me. i did the interview. and i carried with me, even in my travels, thinking what to do with it. then, after a while, i decided to write a

book comparing sophocles oedipus rex, which is about killing the father without knowing it and the most distinguished persian classic, by ferdowsi, which influenced the ottoman empire, shahnameh, in which there is one particular story, rosta m there is one particular story, rostam and sohrab, which almost mirror reflects oedipus and his father. a western classic sort of myth it is the son killing the father by accident and then you have an eastern persian similar mythical story in which in the end, the father kills the sun. would it be right to say that what you portray is, a lot of allegory is involved, but you use these to mix, one that comes classically from the west, one that comes from persia and the east.

you show the way that both play out in the story of the characters in your book and in essence, what you seem your book and in essence, what you seem to be saving is that turkey remains pooled in these different directions. western tradition, eastern tradition, somehow finding a path between the two but is it you're feeling that right now, the eastern tradition which to you is the allegory, the father kills the sun, the authority figure is the survivor, is that you're feeling about turkey today, that authoritarianism is... to answer your previous question where you said is this an accident that you wrote this? no, the story stayed with me that i thought, my god, a socio to the father who kills his son, then i can also write this book in sucha son, then i can also write this book in such a way to allude to what is happening in turkey. yes, turkey is it creasing we getting authoritarian. though i had this story, the well digger and his

disciple, a desire to compare sophocles and ferdowsi but yes, in the last two years, when i was busy with this book, i was thinking also, iam alluding with this book, i was thinking also, i am alluding and writing almost a fictional enquiry into the roots of middle eastern asian was the authoritarianism. let's be honest, do you have to write in this form of allegory and almost code because if you wrote directly about what you see in happy —— happening in turkey today, you would run the risk of frankly censorship, repression and as with scene with some writers, even imprisonment. good question. i never had even in this horrible state that we are politically in, andi state that we are politically in, and i will explain why i'm calling it horrible, you know, everyone knows that some 15 months ago, there was a horrible attempt to do a military coup and after that came a purge and during the purge, 130,000

people were fired from theirjobs and these people cannot go back to their work and some of them cannot even work in private business. hundreds of journalists and even work in private business. hundreds ofjournalists and writers and academics locked up. 80,000 people are jailed and the government needs more prisons and around around 170 journalists are in jail, needs more prisons and around around 170 journalists are injail, this is the situation of the country and i'm writing my novel in this situation but even in this situation, i don't think i will ever have problem with any novel that i want. this never happened to me. in turkey, not to anyone. why is that? is it because you self censor? is it because you are so careful and selecting your subject matter, your characters and your words with the knowledge of how to sort of send messages without

upsetting the system ? to sort of send messages without upsetting the system? if i want to send messages like that, as we are going to do now, i am always in trouble with my interviews. i am a lwa ys trouble with my interviews. i am always outspoken in my interviews. and when we said 170 journalists are in jail, and when we said 170 journalists are injail, some of them my and when we said 170 journalists are in jail, some of them my friends, and they are also novelists, but they are not injailfor and they are also novelists, but they are not in jail for writing the novels. they are injailfor making political commentary. writing novels, say in stalin's time in russia, we had a lot of reparation, separation, people self censor, but c separation, people self censor, but c-— separation, people self censor, but c —— people self censor in interviews and political comments. you go fast to jail if you criticise the government too much, if you attack erdogan too much. and i never intend to write a novel attacking a president. i never wrote that, so to speak. in no sense to you fill

creatively paralysed by the current situation? no, buti creatively paralysed by the current situation? no, but i am paralysed, if the word is right, repressed, angry, confused sometimes, you feel guilty because i am out, ifeel angry that i have to do more. do you feel guilty that you are free when some of the your writer colleagues are in prison? sure. dostoevsky said we are responsible for everything andi we are responsible for everything and i think this is the moral thing. and what the other writers are doing, so, for example, they are going to court, and i also did, for example, there is this prominent intellectual who are respect, he had a case, so i went there, i am there, it makes a difference. but let me tell you this, the biggest turkish newspaper before the referendum in

march or april, asked to do an interview with me. i was very happy, this was the biggest turkish newspaper and i going to publish my views and i'm going to say no to the referendum, no to erdogan, we did a nice interview but just referendum, no to erdogan, we did a nice interview butjust before the interview, the editor—in—chief who is sort of a friend called me to say, iam is sort of a friend called me to say, i am sorry, we can't publish this and really, i cannot accuse the edited too much, they are pressured so much and in the end, they'll all my friends. we are in the same atmosphere and i couldn't address might turkish leaders. what fascinates me is this is so constraining, as a man who cares about your national life, and yet you are telling me that all of those constraints, the anger and guilt you feel, it does not affect you when you go to your writing room, wherever it is, istanbul, the building you have occupied for a

long time, and you can get rid of that frustration and anger and constraint and rights as free as a bird? not as free as a bird. -- write. but let me tell you about what the product of this, being more concerned about the beauty. you don't have to read newspapers until 2pm because it spoils your day, you get angry, and second, this kind of atmosphere makes me work harder, fear and repression. iwork atmosphere makes me work harder, fear and repression. i work as hard as my early years when my family did not want me to be a writer. i worked so hard in these years because i felt guilty about something. again in the last 15— 16 months, i am working a lot, and why is that, perhaps to avoid these problems. if you are living in a terrible age,

with an non— democratic age, you write better. could you teach at university? i teach there. there was a time, we did an interview ten yea rs a time, we did an interview ten years ago, i was almost exiled. we ran into some problems for a while because of things you said relevant to both the armenia and kurdish issues. the kurdish government wa nted issues. the kurdish government wanted to charge you and you had to leave the country. in the end, it seems to me you always go home for creative inspiration. not only that, i also did not want to go to america and criticise it from a distance. i don't want that. and there is the reality that it's my optimism, perhaps, that, don't forget that president erdogan‘s polls are going down and the opposition is up 49%.

and it may go up. they are 49% now. it is promising. you don't run out ofa it is promising. you don't run out of a sea of trouble, you don't run away, when the opposition is getting 49%. and i am optimistic about the situation, not because... there is so much repression, so much repression, also, in the last referendum, i think the referendum was unfair. there was unfair government propaganda. in a way they we re government propaganda. in a way they were taking our tax money and making propaganda for their party. and the results were objective. it was unfair, but the result was objective to be if they continue to work, i will be there and i will be part of it. that is what i think. let me get back to one aspect of this book, the red head woman, which strikes me as

releva nt to red head woman, which strikes me as relevant to your own place in turkey. there is the master welldigger and the student. he is from a westernised family and goes to egypt and becomes a property developer. you have the east and west juxtaposed. most people developer. you have the east and westjuxtaposed. most people would assume since you came from a middle—class family, who spent time in america, you are a modernist in turkey, most would assume you identify with the western part of turkey. the idea is that it draws from all of its history. what do you draw from tradition?” from all of its history. what do you draw from tradition? i identify and believe in western values? in the

end it is liberte, fraternity, egalite. in turkey we lack egalite. some people are saying our democracy is not european. we have turkish democracy. it seems they are trying to invent democracy without free speech. i don't think it will work but i am there. i am at least saying this to you, to otherjournalists, in turkey, outside of turkey. they listen somehow. me talk to you about istanbul. it is almost like it is a character in the book because he described evocatively how istanbul changes over a0 years. —— you describe. it is just a small village when they are building the well, but by the end it is sucked up by the

city with industrial zones and high rises. has the change in istanbul changed the people and the character of the city? 0k, first, the change, and this is the success of erdogan, it has changed more in the last year thanit it has changed more in the last year than it has in the last 15 years of my life. it is key to his success as much as religion is. but on the other hand, this party is saying they are conservative. these are just buildings and mosques. the city turned out huge. they say you should

co nse rve turned out huge. they say you should conserve not just turned out huge. they say you should conserve notjust the religious buildings, but the city. this book goes into money and politics combined in construction business and the leading party, the ruling party, people close around this benefiting from this. doesn't feel like a city still? it is. it is changing. the hills overlooking the bosporus, you can see that. behind that, all the high rises are changing, but i cannot say it is not my city. it is also self—imposed, my mission, i don't want to be a nostalgic middle—class westernised secular person. they say you are destroying it. just like in germany, they don't see why they need labour and they look down upon them. i do

wa nt to and they look down upon them. i do want to belong to my class, from the beginning. i betrayed my class because i want to see the totality. only someone of your class could say that kind of thing. that is the irony of being so full of self—awareness and education, that you can talk about not wanting to be of your class, you are quintessentially of your class. no matter how hard you try, you cannot be anything other than what you are, one of the elite. it started small in that book. 65% of the population is not political in turkey. they where it headgear, a scarf, for example. in the early 2000 they did not allow these people to university. they told secular parties they would get votes from the people. they paved the way for the people. they paved the way for the success of president erdogan‘s party, the cruel authoritarian

attitudes. and now he is even more authoritarian. sometimes, ithink when will these two sides clash? i will find a space in between to talk. if they are happy together, i am afraid to put are you happy in turkey today? i am a happy novelist. but i can never be happy in life. when i am too happy i become sleepy. i need to run around and fight people. i am! i need to run around and fight people. iam! i i need to run around and fight people. i am! i will be even unhappier, that is the right answer, that i may not be happy, but i will be unhappier outside of turkey. if they had a decent democracy i would be very happy. unfortunately, seems that we are not having it, and we are not going to have it for some time, because i cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel. but i

persist in staying in my country and being part of what is happening there now. that is a great thoughts to end on. thank you so much for being on hardtalk. it is a pleasure to have you on the programme again. thank you so much. thank you. hello. the very same weather system that produced a very wet wednesday in northern ireland is gradually pushing further east across the uk during thursday. here it is. at least to begin today, there will be heavy rain bursts in western areas. we are looking at things at eight o'clock in the morning. you can see it in the west of wales into south—west scotland. all points east of that should be fine and dry. a mild morning compared to wednesday. but the overnight rain is pushing

away from northern ireland. something sunny not far away. it is a bit lighter the further north you are. some of us in eastern scotland will start the day dry. it is very slowly going east. even by the end of the afternoon it won't be into eastern england. ahead of this weather system, in some sunshine, feeling quite cooler. but the sun will come out. northern ireland, scattered heavy showers. some pushing in the western parts of scotland through the day, especially into the western isles. that weather system is just creeping into western parts of eastern england that stayed dry on thursday. thursday night, a chilly night into friday morning. widely into single figures, low single figures in some spots, a few patches of mist and fog. northern ireland, another system of weather coming in with rain. a gale in the irish sea. that rain is gradually edging into other western and northern parts of the uk into friday. again, leaving much of central and eastern england dry. pulling away from northern ireland, with sunny spells coming back. the weekend starts with a frightening area of low pressure, but most of the energy is pushing

away to the north. a weaker weather front heading our way slowly as the weekend goes on. a gale in places. a mild breeze blowing elsewhere across the uk. sunny spells developing from the south. the odd spot of rain shifting northwards through the day. a weather front weakening in the west of the uk. ahead of that, we'll see

the higher temperatures. some spots are into the low 20s perhaps. hurricane maria is out of mexico and is moving close to the north—east coast of the dominican republic. it could be a major hurricane cloe to the turks and caicos islands by friday. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. i'm reged ahmad. our top stories: the search for survivors intensifies in mexico city after an earthquake kills over 200 people. hurricane maria knocks out power to the whole of puerto rico, isolating more than 3 million people. a day after president trump called iran a corrupt dictatorship, president rouhani tells the un his country will not be intimidated. and human life and how it all starts — for the first time in the uk, scientists use gene editing on an embryo.