catalonia's regional government says sunday's vote opens the door to independence — claiming 90% backing. but it follows a day of violent clashes where hundreds of people were injured, two seriously. at least twelve policemen were hurt. spain's prime minister, mariano rajoy, said that as far as he was concerned, there had been no referendum in catalonia. two women charged with killing the estranged half—brother of the north korean leader go on trial in malaysia. they are accused of smearing a chemical nerve agent on the face of kimjong—nam at kuala lumpur airport. and this story is trending on bbc.com: donald trumps tweets that his secretary of state should not bother trying to negotiate with north korea's leader. the president described kim jong—un as ‘little rocket man.‘ you're watching bbc news. it is just on half past midnight, so here is hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from paris. i am

stephen sackur. france is back. so says this country's new young president emmanuel macron. he has a ready outlined a grand vision for a reformed friends, leading europe on a much too greater integration. my guess today is his minister for europe, it nathalie loiseau. having big visions is one thing. but how does emmanuel macron deliver here in france and in europe? nathalie loiseau, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. good morning. your president, emmanuel macron, seems to think he can single—handedly revived the european

project. what did he make him feel that way? i think first, he feels a need. there are expectations for more europe, but also a different europe. the challenges —— the challenges that we face of the continent are bigger than what can be addressed by single member states, be it migrations or climate change, terrorism, trade competition... all these challenges you to be addressed at the european level. and there is a high expectation from the citizens to have a more efficient, more active, more dynamic europe. do you think there is a desire from the people of europe for, it too use your phrase, more europe? if you look at the polls, it shows more and more expectation about europe. which does not mean more trust about the way the european union functions at the time being. there is our lot of

expectations, but it is also demanding attitude to saving be more efficient and do more. never mind the polls, look at reality. you know what happened in britain. you know, friendly, looking at germany, that there is now a significant proportion of the population in germany who are prepared to vote for an extremely eurosceptic and far right party, the alternative for germany. across europe there are populist party is peddling messages about europe that are deeply sceptical and negative. about europe that are deeply sceptical and negativelj about europe that are deeply sceptical and negative. i also see them losing, for instance, at our presidential election. it was a clear choice. are you pro—european, like emmanuel macron, or are you eurosceptic like bruno then? —— marine le pen. i have never seen so

many pro—europeans in my country since brexit started. let's look at practicalities, then. the other day, emmanuel macron made a big speech saying that europe was too big, too slow, too inefficient, and they needed to be done about it. in specific terms, he seems to be calling for a profound change in the economic integration of europe. he was dizzy deeper integration in the eurozone, where they'd treasury at a finance minister, and a budget which will have tax raising revenues within it. this is an extraordinary expansion of economic integration. appointed to you, again, where is the evidence that he could persuade the evidence that he could persuade the rest of the eurozone, let alone all of the eu, that that should happen? because of our facts. we have been through a huge crisis in the eurozone. and were recovered. it is not for relief, but lessons learnt. what do we do well? and what

is not sufficient? so we can either wait until the next crisis and work in emergency, as we did pretty well, but not so well that, that is to say, it is not over. we have not fixed the european union yet. let me put this as politely as they can: france is not the predominant economic power in the european union, germany is. and given the results in germany the other day, there is no way that angela merkel will sign up to this grand, ambitious reform programme that your president has laid out. this is not what she said. she said the programme that was proposed, because it is only proposing a programme for debate by emmanuel macron, was full of interesting ideas, that we had to go through details. and she has already expressed herself in favour of more investment in the eurozone, recognising that even her own

country was lacking. let me give you some updates. since the election, from seniorfigures some updates. since the election, from senior figures inside the csu, sister party to angela merkel‘s party, we hear that the eurozone will be turned into an enamoured of trans union. the fear is that we would neutralise the mistakes of the pass. this is precisely not what we're proposing. by no way would we say that, while we... what is the point of having tax—raising powers oi’ point of having tax—raising powers ora point of having tax—raising powers or a budget ory treasury and a finance minister, unless, ultimately, you're to treat the eurozone as one economic and fiscal area, where those areas that need special investment, and financial help, will get it? otherwise, what is the point? that is the point. you can't make common currency without a

common perspective and budgetary perspective. we do have convergence in europe, and there is not necessarily political convergence... but there is more and more. and we are working to have more environment to learn fiscal at this this is a grand vision. emmanuel macron loves, i suppose, to pick himself as the grand reformer of the european union. the way it works, came back to the point, there is no way it it can happen. you still believe that you will be one single member state, fighting on its own, and trying to compete seriously. but it does not fly. we had to be much stronger. we had to be notjust a monetary zone but an economic power. and this is what we will be. but with respect, you are not addressing my point.

greece, after all these years of emergency bailouts, greece, portugal, some of the eastern european countries, even france itself. even france is not meet the rules at the moment on the deficit. it will at the end of this year. so you say, but we will have to wait and see, what we? no. we have taken strong commitments. that may quote we will. so we have discussed that. let us talk about migration. emmanuel macron, and his grand visionary speech, talked about a totally beefed up eu border force, a centralised asylum office, and the speeding up of pan—european asylum policy. again, my question is does he not look at what happens on does he not look at what happens on does he not look at what happens on does he not hear about what the hungarians are saying at the polls about their attitude to taking more

refugees and asylum seekers? they are talking about control of external borders. they talk about harmonising asylum policy. the question that... according to the eu, an agreement signed a couple of yea rs eu, an agreement signed a couple of years ago, they were supposed to ta ke years ago, they were supposed to take their share of 130,000 refugees, but poland and hungry have taken zero, and other countries have taken zero, and other countries have taken a taken zero, and other countries have ta ken a couple taken zero, and other countries have taken a couple of 100. and we disagree with them. -- hungary. my point is that they will not listen to the many akron. when he is talking to the polls and to the hungarians, to the checks on the slow barks, and do all these countries, it is talking to them on a really basis, and sell me. —— czechs and the slovaks. people are most recently cruised —— the polish promise originally accused emmanuel macron of being arrogant.

promise originally accused emmanuel macron of being arrogantlj promise originally accused emmanuel macron of being arrogant. i do know to listen to his speeches, but he has a personal style. i have been invited to poland in the coming days by the polish authorities. so we have a strong dialogue. on this broad point, about european refugees, you see europe ready to ta ke te ns refugees, you see europe ready to take tens of thousand is of more refugees. but you do just take support in welcoming more than 1 million refugees since 2015. and now, what we really want to do... but we saw with the germ public order that. we saw deep scepticism about that policy. —— we saw what the german public thought of that.” just saw angela merkel one. in terms of the military, going through emmanuel macron's vision, he is talking very specifically about a joint eu defence force, a shared budget, and a new military academy for all of the eu. —— merkel won.

whether that leave nato? there needs to bea whether that leave nato? there needs to be a strong european pillar in nato. —— wethers that led nato. the time being, europe has not invested enoughin time being, europe has not invested enough in its defence. it is to have stronger capacities. it has two improve its capabilities. —— where does that leave. we start with the european defence funds, and co—operation. what emmanuel macron describes is the perspective of what already started. what do you do with the very glaring differences are strategic, sort of, perspective differences, within the european union, for example, on the subject of russia. if one looks at what the greeks and bog areas think about russia, and compare it with what is said in maybe berlin or paris or london, there are profound strategic perspective differences. how do you

cope with that? not that much. firstly, we talk about it all the time drew the european council, during the councils of ministers of foreign affairs. and the threats are obvious. we have a common european policy regarding ukraine, and there are sanctions at that ukraine against russia. so this is a common diplomatic policy. i guess we cannot really talk about the vision for european defence and intelligent sharing and everything else without talking about brexit, because i think you would agree with me when i say that britain is one of the key players when it comes to this. 70 denies that. so how much we can do is that leave your‘s defence and security capability? we would only have a strong bilateral relationship between the european union and united kingdom on defence and security in the future. do you think? that is the expectation of the united kingdom. we hear that all

the united kingdom. we hear that all the time from the united kingdom.” guess i am interested in what you're vacationers. we have seen the expectations from the theresa may government in terms of what they will get from the deal. the message is often different from paris. not necessarily from paris. 27 states are united deal with the united kingdom. it is not a breezy and french message. we do regret that the united kingdom leaves the european union. —— parisian or french. but it was a sobering decision. we now need to accept the withdrawal of the united kingdom on conditions that have been agreed by the uk, and now we talk about the future. and of course we want to have a specific strong relationship with the united kingdom. the only thing is when you are outside the european union, you cannot expect to have the same conditions on the same relationships is when you are united with the states. it is a polite way of saying, you know what, britain,

you will suffer. nobody wants to punish the uk. it sounded a little bit like that. it was a choice was made, and there needs to be a coherent result of this choice. you cannot be in and out at the same time. well, let's to be specific. theresa may made her big speech in florence. i assure you all watching carefully. she had a warmer tone to the eu, it must be said, as talks continue. she talked about a two—year transition where the uk would continue to pay into the eu budget, and would, as she put it, except all the obligations in terms of membership. and enjoy all the opportunities to still be taking pa rt opportunities to still be taking part of the single market, for instance. so is that, few, a breaking of the longueuil? wesley michel barnier, leading the negotiations for the commission, said that he has not been hearing

enough to move the talks. it was a constructive speech, and we welcome the tone and the signals of goodwill. but now we are waiting for more precision on issues that have been discussed for months. full what your view. have you heard enough to believe that this autumn, taught him to address from the divorce issues involving the money and status of european citizens, the irish border, can the talks move beyond those, because the british government says some clear progress has been made, and get into the future relationship? essentially, the trading relationship. i would love to say yes, but for the time being on the three issues you mentioned, there has been no progress. no progress at all? very little. and that's sufficient. there

is no detailed position of the united kingdom on either of the three issues. they issued a whole bunch of papers on the... on the future. some of these are the issues of. ask the irish government what they think of the current position of the british government. we are in full solidarity with the irish government. your ministers, to people like me in the media and say, we have made enormous progress. look at these policy positions we have outlined. we have made constructive proposals on the three opening issues that eu wanted us to talk about. let us talk about the future relationship. what do you think they are playing out? i think that there is sincerely a day by day discovery of the extent of work that have to be done to be able to separate from

the eu properly. this is extraordinarily complex. i think it isa extraordinarily complex. i think it is a huge amount of work for the british administration. do you think that they have not been, by far, properly prepared?” that they have not been, by far, properly prepared? i am not commenting on domestic politics of the united kingdom. i am witnessing the united kingdom. i am witnessing the enormous amount of work which remains to be done, compared to what had been stated during the referendum campaign, there is a huge difference about what had been said to british voters and the reality that they face today. i am not sure that they face today. i am not sure that they face today. i am not sure that the debate on the referendum went in depth on the consequences of brexit. and in your view, the british people didn't get a sense of the real pain they were going to feel? this is a lesson that have to

be learned for all of us. we have the same sort of experience, what was less dramatic consequences in 2005 when we discussed the programme of the european institution. it was explained to our fellow citizens, this is precisely what we should not do in the future, have people deciding behind closed doors and then go back to the voters and say, there is a very complex issue, but there is a very complex issue, but the answer is very simple, yes or no. you can never expect an interesting answer. it have to be such a caricature of the original debate. maybe i am wrong, buti heard a hint from president emmanuel macron about how it was going to be a multitiered europe. he seemed to be saying, britain, in two or three yea rs be saying, britain, in two or three years when we have delivered the reforms and have a multitiered system, you will want to come back in. do you believe that? he doesn't

say you will probably want to come back in, but it is something you may wa nt to back in, but it is something you may want to consider. it happens. you could change your mind. it is our a nswer to could change your mind. it is our answer to leave doors open and say, maybe, if you are interested one day, we would be happy to have you back. let's talk a little bit about the domestic scene. one of the ministers that emmanuel macron handpicked for the government, eu work, you with the director of one of paris' most elite training establishments for public servants. you do not have a track record in politics, yet you are in government. do you see yourself as a symbol of a new approach to france? have already done that in the past. what i have witnessed is that a number of people, the vast majority of people

in the government right now, first, they did not apply for that. they we re they did not apply for that. they were asked to come. and they were asked because of their commitment to asked because of their commitment to a very specific sector of activity. you have a health minister who was a doctor. you have a culture minister who was a publisher. you have people who was a publisher. you have people who do believe that they have an opportunity to try and make this government succeed. they are citizens with expectations, and they have not been in politics before. this is not party political, it is not part is on in the old way. it is true that the emmanuel macron movement is deeply representative of the private sector and public sector elite. if you look at it, 70% of national assembly members are from the upper middle classes. in that

way, you not really... you are reaffirming the establishment, not challenging it. there are many new things. the members of parliament, for instance. we jumped things. the members of parliament, for instance. wejumped in the ratings for any gender balance in the political life from being behind sudan to being about the first country in terms of women in parliament. we have a much younger parliament. we have a much younger parliament than we had before. there isa parliament than we had before. there is a huge change. when you mentioned that you have people coming from the private sector, this is brand—new in french politics. we had very few of them before. the reform programme's priorities. labour reforms supposedly offering more flexibility to employers and the radically to employees, although a lot of people see it as a means of making it

easierfor companies see it as a means of making it easier for companies to fire people. we also have corporation tax, some property tax is going to be cut, increased tax on pensioners, cuts to housing allowances that many french people have relied upon. too many in this country, this looks like a policy programme of reform that favours the well to do. there are many measures that you have not described, in favour of the weaker spot of the population. we are increasing the minimum pension for the elderly. we are increasing the act liberty premium that we are giving to people who are entering jobs. there are a number of measures which are targeting and giving morte... which are targeting and giving morte. .. listen which are targeting and giving morte... listen to which are targeting and giving morte. .. listen to the words of an economist at the french economic observatory. he said, this budget, the won has just been announced, its

benefits the most affluent most. the taxation and capital is reduced from year1, taxation and capital is reduced from year 1, but measures to help the disadvantaged are going to be spread over the five—year term. it is old school trickle down theory. this is his point, and i don't share it., —— he is not wrong. i disagree. with taxes, you are giving advantage to people who pay taxes. these are the richest in the population. half of the population doesn't pay the income taxed in france. we need targets downsizing taxes, it benefits the people who pay taxes. they have already been union demonstrations... not so many. we sawjean—luc melenchon. .. he

demonstrations... not so many. we sawjean—luc melenchon... he called ita sawjean—luc melenchon... he called it a social coup d'etat. you might say that the numbers on the streets aren't so great... i am just witnessing. i presume you have witnessed the latest poll, 69% of people polled think that the emmanuel macron reforms are unclear. if you 9% think they are not going to revive the lies the economy or is the situation in the country. and 49% say it is too early to have any sort ofjudgement. we just started. we are starting with tough measures it was we found that our country had huge problems. we had to take tough decisions. it to take them now they are not at all. you don't think emmanuel macron cares that his approval rating has slumped from 60% to 40%? approval rating has slumped from 60% to 4096? we don't expect good polls every day, but we are expecting in trying to take a good decisions. this change is real and it is going to be maybe brittle? it is not brutal, it is dynamic. we have to ——

we have to end there, but thank you for being on hardtalk my pleasure, thank you. hello there. we had some warmer air for a while on sunday, 20.5 degrees. but we're not going to see those sort of temperatures for a while, because there is air coming down as the wind changes direction to a north—westerly. winds a feature of the weather already. strengthening around the base of the deep area of low pressure that is close to scotland. not only are we seeing winds picking up, but blowing a whole host of heavy, squally showers. wind gusts could be an issue in the morning. possibly some travel disruption, 50 mph gusts

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the rain getsstretchedrgt in southern areas through the day. behind it, north—westerly winds, again chilly, but it should be drier with some sunshine.