monarch, has gone into administration. it's the uk's largest ever airline to enter administration. the news was announced by the civil aviation authority. there'd been concern about the company's finances. after a day of voting that descended into chaos and violence, regional leaders in catalonia say more than 2 million people, 90% of those who voted in a banned referendum, were in favour of independence from spain. the prime minister, mariano rajoy, has called the poll illegal. canadian police have arrested a somali refugee suspected of stabbing a police officer and injuring four pedestrians in edmonton, alberta. the police officer was controlling traffic at a canadian football league game, when he was struck by a car at high speed now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from paris.

i am stephen sackur. "france is back" — so says this country's new young president, emmanuel macron. he has a ready outlined a grand vision for a reformed friends, he has a ready outlined a grand vision for a reformed france, leading europe on a much too greater integration. leading europe on a march to greater integration. my guess today is his minister for europe, it nathalie loiseau. having big visions is one thing. but how does emmanuel macron deliver, both here in france and in europe? nathalie loiseau, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. good morning. your president, emmanuel macron, seems to think he can single—handedly revive the european project. what, do you think

makes him feel that way? i think first, he feels a need. there are expectations for more europe, but also a different europe. the challenges that we face on the continent are all bigger than what can be addressed by a single member state, be it migrations or climate change, terrorism, trade competition, all these challenges have to be addressed at the european level. and there is a very high expectation from the citizens to have a more efficient, more active, more dynamic europe. do you think there is a desire from the people of europe for, to use your phrase, "more europe"? if you look at the polls, eurobarometer, it shows more and more expectation about europe. which does not mean more trust about the way the european union functions at the time being.

there is a lot of expectations, but it's also a demanding attitude to, say, be more efficient, do more. but minister, never mind the polls, just look at reality. i mean, you know what happened in britain. you know, frankly, looking at germany, that there is now a significant proportion of the population in germany who are prepared to vote for an extremely eurosceptic and far—right party, the afd. you can look right across the continent, and you see political movements that are populist and peddling a message about europe which, frankly, is deeply sceptical and negative. yes, but i also see them losing, for instance, at our presidential election. it was a very clear choice: are you pro—european, like is emmanuel macron, or are you eurosceptic, like was marine le pen. and the people chose. and you mentioned brexit. i think i've never seen as many

pro—europeans in my country since brexit started. let's look at practicalities, then. you know, the other day, president macron made a big speech. he said europe is "too big, too slow, too inefficient, and and we need to do something about it. " now, in specific terms, he seems to be calling for a profound change in the sort of economic integration of europe. he was wants to see deeper integration within the eurozone, he wants a treasury, he wants a finance minister, he wants a budget which will have tax—raising revenues within it. this is an extraordinary expansion of economic integration, and i put it to you, again, where is the evidence that he could persuade the rest of the eurozone — let alone all of the eu — that that should happen? well, because they are facts. because we've been through a huge crisis in the eurozone. now we've recovered. and it is not time for relief. it's time for lessons learnt. what do we do well,

and what is not sufficient? so we can either wait until the next crisis and work in emergency, as we did, pretty well, but not so well that — that is to say, it is not over. we have not fixed the eurozone yet. no, but let me put this as politely as i can. france is not the pre—eminent power in the european union, today, germany is. and given the result in the german election just a few days ago. there is no way that angela merkel is going to sign up to this grand, ambitious reform programme that your president has laid out. this is not at all what she said. she said the programme that was proposed — because it's only proposing a programme for debate — by emmanuel macron, was full of interesting ideas, that we had to go through details. and she has already expressed herselves in favour of more investment in the eurozone, recognising that even her own

country was lacking. well, let me give you some updates. since the election, from senior figures inside the csu, sister party to the cdu, merkel‘s party, hans michelbach from the csu, said "macron‘s ideas will lead to a deeper split in the european union." "it promises to turn the eurozone into an unlimited transfer union." the fear is that we would neutralise the mistakes of the past. but this is precisely not what we are proposing. by no way would we say that, while we... but what's the point of having tax—raising powers or a budget or treasury and a finance minister, unless, ultimately, you're foing going to treat the eurozone as one economic and fiscal area, where those areas that need special investment, and financial help, will get it? otherwise, what's the point? but what's the point to have a common currency if you don't have common

economic perspective and budgetary perspective. that's a very good question, but the fact is we do have convergence in europe, and there's certainly no political convergence... but there is more and more. and we are working for having more economic, environmental, fiscal... it's fantasy politics, though. it's a grand vision. macron loves, i suppose, to pitch himself as the grand reformer of the european union. but the way it actually works, in europe, today — i come back to this point: there's no practical way he can deliver it. i am sorry. this is exactly the contrary. this is pure pragmatism. today, competition is global. you can't still believe that you will be one single member state, fighting on its own, and trying to compete seriously. it simply doesn't fly. we have to be much stronger. we have to be notjust a monetary zone but an economic power. and this is what we will be. but with respect, you are not really addressing my point about lack of convergence.

now look, greece, after all these years of emergency bailouts... is going out a deep procedure of excessive deficit. greece, portugal, some of the eastern european countries... greece has... ..even france itself. france doesn't meet the rules, at the moment, on the deficit. it will at the end of this year. so you say, but we'll have to wait and see, what we? no. i mean we have taken strong commitments. we are proposing a new budget for next year. and already, all the signals are here that we will meet the commitments of maastricht by the end of the year. so we've discussed that. let us talk about migration. again, mr macron, in his recent grand visionary speech, talked about a totally beefed up eu border force, a centralised asylum office, speeding up a pan—european asylum policy. again, my question is, does he not look at what happens on the ground? does he not hear about what the hungarians are saying and the poles are saying

about their attitude to taking more refugees and asylum seekers? they are talking about control of external borders. they are precisely talking about harmonising asylum policy. the question that... but poland has refused to take any refugees. according to the eu, an agreement signed a couple of years ago, they were supposed to take their share of 120,000 refugees. poland and hungary have taken zero, and other countries have taken a couple of hundred. and we disagree with them. but my point is they're not going to to mr macron lecturing them, telling them... they are — they are — he's not lecturing anyone when he's talking to the poles and to the hungarians, and to the czechs and the slovaks, and to all these countries, and he's talking to them on a regular basis, and so am i. and they are very interested to know the proposal that we are making in terms of migrations. well, i don't know if you saw it, but the polish prime minister recently accused him of being "arrogant and inexperienced". well, i don't know if you listen carefully to all the speeches of the polish prime minister —

he has a very personal style. i am been invited to poland in the coming days by the polish authorities. hmm. so we have a strong dialogue with this country. so on this broad point, about europe and refugees, you see europe ready to take tens of thousands of more refugees. but europe just did take its part, welcoming more thani million refugees since 2015. and now, what we really want to do... but we saw with the german public thought of that. but we saw what the german public thought of that. we saw deep scepticism about that policy. we saw chancellor merkel, who had this very generous policy, winning the election. we've just been through an election in france and in germany, and i'm just witnessing who won. in terms of the military, again — just going through emmanuel macron‘s vision — he is talking very specifically about a joint eu defence force, a shared budget, and a new military academy for all of the eu. no, an intelligence academy.

where does that leave nato? there is to be a strong european pillar in nato. and for the time being, europe has not invested enough in its defence. europe has to have stronger capacities. you have — europe has to mutualise its capabilities, and this is what we have started already with the europe defence fund, and with the permanent structure to co—operation. so what emmanuel macron describes is the perspective of what already started. what do you do with the very glaring differences are strategic, what do you do with the very glaring differences — strategic, sort of, perspective differences, within the european union. for example, on the subject of russia. if one looks at what the greeks and bulgarians think about russia, compare it with what is said in maybe berlin or paris or london, there are profound strategic perspective differences.

how do you cope with that? not that much. first, we talk about it all the time drew the european council, first, we talk about it all the time during the european council, during the councils of ministers of foreign affairs. and the threats are obvious. we have a common european policy regarding ukraine, and there are sanctions about ukraine against russia. so this is a common diplomatic policy. i guess we can't really talk about the vision for european defence and intelligent sharing and everything else without talking about brexit, because i think you would agree with me when i say that britain is one of the key players when it comes to this. no—one denies that. so how much weaker does brexit leave europe's defence and security capability? we'll probably have a strong bilateral relationship between the european union and united kingdom on defence and security in the future. do you think? that's the expectation of the united kingdom. and we hear that all the time from the british government.

well, i guess i'm interested in what your expectation is, and the message is often different from paris. not necessarily from paris. 27 states are united deal with the united kingdom. it is not a parisian and french message. we do regret that the united kingdom leaves the european union. but we respect a sovereign decision. we now need to accept the withdrawal of the united kingdom on conditions that have been agreed by the uk, and then we will talk about the future. and of course we want to have a specific strong relationship with the united kingdom. the only thing is, when you're outside a union, you cannot expect to have the same conditions on the same advantages to have the same conditions and the same advantages than when you're a member state.

that's obvious. that is a polite way of saying, you know what, britain, you will suffer. nobody wants to punish the uk. well, it sounded a little bit like that. it was a choice was made, and there needs to be a coherent result of this choice. you cannot be in and out at the same time. well, let's be specific. theresa may made her big speech in florence. i'm sure you were watching it carefully. she had a warmer tone to the eu, it must be said, as talks continue. she talked about a two—year transition, where the uk would continue to pay into the eu budget, and would, as she put it, would accept all the obligations in terms of membership. even though it would be outside of the eu. and enjoy all the opportunities to be still taking a part of the single market, for instance. so is that, for you, a breaking of the logjam? you know, we've seen michel barnier, who's leading the negotiations for the commission, suggest that he's not hearing enough to move the talks.

well, it was a constructive speech, and we welcome the tone and the signals of goodwill. but now we are waiting for more precisions on issues that we have been discussing for months about the conditions of the withdrawal. have you heard enough to believe that this autumn, the talks can progress from those very detailed, sort of, quote unquote, "divorce issues" involving the money and status of european citizens, the irish border. can the talks move beyond those, because the british government says some clear progress has been made, and get into the future relationship? essentially, the trading relationship. i would love to say yes, but for the time being on the three issues you mentioned, there has been no progress. no progress at all? very little.

and that's sufficient. there is no detailed position of the united kingdom on either of the three issues. they issued a whole bunch of papers on the... 0n the future. some of these are the issues of... ask the irish government what they think of the current position of the british government. we are in full solidarity with the irish government. your ministers, to people like me in the media, say, "we have made enormous progress. look at these policy positions we have outlined. we have made constructive proposals on the three opening issues that eu wanted us to talk about." let us talk about the future relationship. what do you think they are playing at? i think that there is sincerely a day—by—day discovery of the extent of work that has to be done to be able to separate from the eu properly.

this is extraordinarily complex. i think it is a huge amount of work for the british administration. do you think that they have not been, by far, properly prepared? i am not commenting on domestic politics of the united kingdom. i am witnessing the enormous amount of work which remains to be done. compared to what had been stated during the referendum campaign, there is a huge difference about what had been said to british voters and the reality that they face today. i am not sure that the debate on the referendum went in depth on the consequences of brexit. and in your view, the british people didn't get a sense of the real pain they were going to feel?

this is a lesson that has to be learned for all of us. we have the same sort of experience, but with less dramatic consequences, in 2005 when we discussed the programme of the european institution. it was explained to our fellow citizens "this is precisely what we should not do in the future" — have people deciding behind closed doors and then go back to the voters and say "there is a very complex issue, but the answer is very simple, yes or no." you can never expect an interesting answer. it has to be such a caricature of the original debate. maybe i am wrong, but i heard a hint from president emmanuel macron about how it was going to be a multi—tiered europe. he seemed to be saying, "britain, in two or three years when we have delivered the reforms and have a multi—tiered system, you will want to come back in." does he really believe that? he doesn't say "you will probably want to come back in"

but it is something you may want to consider. it happens. you could change your mind. it is our answer to leave doors open and say, "maybe, if you are interested one day, we would be happy to have you back." let's talk a little bit about the domestic scene. you are one of the ministers that emmanuel macron hand—picked for the government, you worked with the director of one of paris‘ most elite training establishments for public servants. you do not have a track record in politics, yet you are in government. do you see yourself as a symbol of a new approach to france? we have already done that in the past. what i have witnessed is that a number of people, the vast majority of people in the government right now, first, they did not apply for that.

they were asked to come. and they were asked because of their commitment to a very specific sector of activity. you have a health minister who was a doctor. you have a culture minister who was a publisher. you have people who do believe that they have an opportunity to try and make this government succeed. they are citizens with expectations and they have not been in politics before. this is not party political, it is not partisan in the old way. it is true that the emmanuel macron movement is deeply representative of the private sector and public sector elite. if you look at it, 70% of national assembly members are from the upper middle classes. in that way, you are not really... you are reaffirming

the establishment, not challenging it. there are many new things. the members of parliament, for instance. we jumped in the ratings for any gender balance in the political life from being behind sudan to being about the first country in terms of women in parliament. we have a much younger parliament than we had before. there is a huge change. when you mentioned that you have people coming from the private sector, this is brand—new in french politics. we had very few of them before. the reform programme's priorities, labour reforms supposedly offering more flexibility to employers, and theoretically to employees, although a lot of people see it as a means of making it easier for companies to fire people. we also have corporation tax, some property tax is going to be cut, increased tax on pensioners, cuts to housing allowances that many french people have relied upon.

to many in this country, this looks like a policy programme of reform that favours the well—to—do. there are many measures that you have not described in favour of the weaker spot of the population. we are increasing the minimum pension for the elderly. we are increasing the activity premium that we are giving to people who are entering jobs. there are a number of measures which are targeting and giving more... listen to the words of an economist at the french economic 0bservatory. he said, "this budget" — the one which has just been announced — "it benefits the most affluent most. the taxation and capital is reduced from year one,

but measures to help the disadvantaged are going to be spread over the five—year term." it is an old—school trickle—down theory. this is his point, and i don't share it. he is not wrong. i disagree. —— he has been criticised for many yea rs —— he has been criticised for many years for too many taxes. these are the most, the richest in the population. half of the population doesn't pay the income tax in france. we need targets downsizing taxes, it benefits the people who pay taxes. there have already been union demonstrations... not so many. we sanean—luc melenchon. .. he called it a social coup d'etat. you might say that the numbers on the streets aren't so great... i am just witnessing.

i presume you have witnessed the latest poll — 69% of people polled think that the emmanuel macron reforms are unclear. 69% think they are not going to revitalise the economy or is the situation in the country. and 49% say it is too early to have any sort of judgement. we just started. we are starting with tough measures. it was, we found, that our country had huge problems. we had to take tough decisions. if to take them now, they are not at all. you don't think emmanuel macron cares that his approval rating has slumped from 60% to 40%? we don't expect good polls every day, but we are expecting and trying to take good decisions. this change is real and it is going to be maybe brutal? it is not brutal, it is dynamic. we have to end there,

but thank you for being on hardtalk. my pleasure, thank you. hello there. we had some warmer air for a while on sunday, 20.5 degrees in herefordshire. but we're not going to see those sort of temperatures for a while, because there is air coming down as the wind changes direction to a north—westerly. wind's a feature of the weather already. they have been strengthening around the base of the deep area of low pressure that is close to scotland. not only are we seeing the winds picking up, but blowing a whole host of heavy, squally showers, too. wind gusts could be an issue in the morning. possibly some travel disruption, 50 mph gusts around the pennines and perhaps even 60

mph up into scotland. some quite windy weather in the morning in particular. this is probably the peak of the winds across these areas. lots of showers as well. winds easing, showers slowly ease as well. further south, some sunshine before clouding over in the afternoon. we may see some rain in the southwest. here is the picture on monday afternoon. by then, the strongest winds in the far north—east and scotland, a speckling of showers, not as bad as early in the day. drier to the east of the pennines, some gusty winds. more high clouds building in further south. the thickness of the cloud in the south—west, not far from south wales, rain. this really is from ex—hurricane maria, not having a big impact. mostly scooping out into the english channel. pressure building overnight, skies were clear. as we head into tuesday, north—westerly wind. not as windy as monday. not as many showers.

lighter and probably starting to blow in a bit more cloud. temperatures a degree or two lower than on monday. we had high hopes for this area of high pressure, hoping it would build across the uk. getting squished by these more active weather systems racing in from the atlantic. finding high pressure in the south, lower pressure across the north. gusty winds to the east of higher ground. wettest weather over the hills in western scotland. some rain for northern ireland, most of england and wales should be dry with some sunshine. that rain in the north pushing south for a while. heavy rain close to that area of low pressure on the front itself, but then the weather front moves its way south. as it does so, it weakens. the rain gets stretched out and very much lighter in southern areas through the day. behind it, north—westerly winds, again chilly, but it should be drier with some sunshine.

this is bbc news. i'm tim willcox. our top stories: 110,000 holidaymakers 110 , 000 holidaymakers stranded across europe as monarch goes into administration. catalan leaders say 90% of voters backed separation from spain. but the government in madrid says the referendum was illegal. police in canada arrest a somali refugee suspected of stabbing a police officer and injuring four pedestrians in edmonton, alberta. two women charged with killing the estranged half—brother of the north korean leader, plead not guilty at their trial in malaysia. the catalonian conundrum — when a massive majority of a minority votes for independence, what happens to the driver of spain's economic recovery?