people in new york city on tuesday, mowing them down with a pick—up truck. sayfullo saipov, who was shot by police, satin a wheelchair. he was charged with the killings and with providing material support to the extremist group, the so—called islamic state. president trump has called for harsher and quicker punishments for those who carry out such attacks. he criticised the american justice system for terrorism suspects, calling it "a joke and a laughing stock." he said he would repeal the visa system the suspect used to enter the us. the british defence secretary, michael fallon, has resigned over his personal conduct. his decision comes amid a wave of allegations of sexual harassment and abuse against members of parliament. mr fallon admitted that his behaviour in the past may have fallen short of the standards expected. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen

sackur. far from settling anything, the catalan regional government's recent decoration of independence has deepened the uncertainty and confusion in catalonia. madrid has placed the region under direct rule. the leaders of the ousted administration in barcelona face charges in trial. new elections are to be held in december. my guess is alfred bosch, a seniorfigure in the republican left party which was part of the coalition. have the secessionists scored a massive own goal? alfred bosch, welcome to

hardtalk. hello. how are you? very well, and wondering how you are feeling. would you agree that things have not exactly gone to plan since that unilateral declaration of cata la n that unilateral declaration of catalan independencejust that unilateral declaration of catalan independence just a few days ago was a “— catalan independence just a few days ago was a —— ago? catalan independence just a few days ago was a -- ago? the declaration happened and the plans have worked. now we are trying to do something which deserves some respect which is trying to cope with a wave of oppression that the spanish government is deploying in catalonia against us. well, respect, obviously, has to be earned. i am just wondering whether the people of

catalonia respect leaders of their regional government who don't appear to have had any coherent strategy for the day after the big declaration. i think everybody here in catalonia understands, and i am sure the world will understand, once it is explained that we needed to have pa rt of it is explained that we needed to have part of the government in catalonia not abandoning their own people. and part of the government in brussels to initiate this international strategy. and to tell the whole world that we are live, that we proclaim the republic and we wa nt that we proclaim the republic and we want freedom and to pursue it through democratic means to be now there is a huge wave of oppression falling on top of us. otherwise, people will be saying why are you addressing the international audience, why are you staying at home? we spoke and we did the right thing, i think. i must

home? we spoke and we did the right thing, ithink. i must say, home? we spoke and we did the right thing, i think. i must say, you are putting a very positive spin on things and we will get to accusations of oppression from madrid ina accusations of oppression from madrid in a moment. just to stick with what the catalan leadership has been up to of late, this is what you said on monday the 30th of october, just a couple of days ago, you said that ca rles just a couple of days ago, you said that carles puigdemont, who, of course, was the leader of the cata la n course, was the leader of the catalan regional government, would not abandon this duties. you said that he has been chosen to lead this country and that is what he is going to do. it is his duty. he will not abandon his duty. well, as you were saying that, we now know he was getting on a flight and going to brussels and is now in effect is living in exile. well, of course, he is still fulfilling his duties and his obligations because, i am sure you can realise that carles puigdemont would like to write now be with his family, his beloved

wife, his two children, girls, eight and 10, and wants to be with them. but he is fulfilling his obligations because he is in brussels explaining to the world what is going on in catalonia, what are the hopes of us and what are the plans for the spanish government. be honest, when you said that, you did not know that he was fleeing to brussels. let's face it, your own leader of your own republican left party, he made a different choice. he could have stayed in barcelona. it was a collective decision. we decided the president of catalonia is the best icon we have so we will not surrender it. like the dalai lama, did he surrender? no, he didn't. we

have to stick by him. he needs to be in the capital of europe for the time being. that might change. sorry to interrupt, but let's go through this bit by bit. i am serious. isn't it true he has gone to brussels as nobody of any significance in the institutions or leadership of member states, they don't want to talk to him, they will not touch him with a barge pole. first thing, i think it is not something to be laughed at. our people were butchered by the police for voting. elderly ladies, grandmothers, grandfathers, they we re grandmothers, grandfathers, they were beaten up, whole families were beaten up for voting, just for going to the voting stations. that is something that deserves attention from europe, from everybody in the world. and what carles puigdemont, the catalan president, is doing right now, is pursuing that international agenda. that does not

mean we will have instant success because european leaders see what's happening in catalonia as a threat. i think they are wrong. they should see it as an opportunity. because europe was founded on democracy. and in the aftermath of a second world war, it was the ballot box, and not the bullet, which prevailed. and thatis the bullet, which prevailed. and that is how we think things should prevail in europe. and that is what we are doing. who could be against... i mean, could claude monet the against the people who defended the ballot box with their bodies? is that not an example for europe? i promise you we will come back to the european response on what the catalans and your regional government have done in a moment just as we will get to your allegations madrid. but i want to stick to what the decisions have been sent unilateral declaration of independence from your own site, from leadership of the secessionists party. let's face it, i mean, right

now, it is clear that there is deep confusion inside the various parties that make up the yes to independence coalition, will you at least accept that? well, what kind of confusion? could you expand on that? indeed, i can. for example, i have had different messages from different politicians about whether your boss in the republican left party and ca rles in the republican left party and carles puigdemont, and others, indeed should go to madrid to face the charges and the trial that is now demanded of them by the authorities in spain. what do you say to that? well, it is very clear, andi say to that? well, it is very clear, and i have stated very clearly. the vice president of the catalan government, he was chosen in the polls, in voting sessions. he was chosen by the votes, so it is to get

it. he will go to court to face the charges, charges against sedition, for example, rebellion, ancient offences like that which don't really sta nd offences like that which don't really stand probably in the modern western world and europe right now. will western world and europe right now. wi ll ca rles western world and europe right now. will carles puigdemont... will ca rles will carles puigdemont... will carles puigdemont be one of those individuals charged who agrees to go to madrid? i talk of confusion, for example, whether he is prepared to go. let's not get overexcited about this. we can deal with this with a very calm attitude. carles puigdemont, like i said at the beginning, he made a decision which was actively taken collectively. and we decided that he was too valuable to go and hand him over to the madrid authorities. now, the rest

will go there, and most of the councillors and the vice president will be in madrid to face whatever charges they encounter in court. ca rles charges they encounter in court. carles puigdemont has to be preserved as an international icon for the time being. that is our decision, and we will stick to it. we said that yesterday. we are quite firm in that. by your own account, then, he will be essentially a absconding from justice. the others are prepared to go and face justice. ca rles are prepared to go and face justice. carles puigdemont is not. let's look at this in a subtle way. will use call it justice, would at this in a subtle way. will use call itjustice, would you call it fair, people who organised a vote on october the first, a vote which was actually defended by the people physically with their bodies. is defending freedom is an offence in zist defending freedom is an offence in 21st century europe, we are in a

really bad situation, i must say. still, they are brave people, they will face whatever charges they have, because they don't want to let the people down. here is another... i used that word confusion and you questioned me about itis another area in which i see confusion of the era you in the republican left party and in the party of carles puigdemont as well prepared to fight the elections in december 31 and put up the elections in december 31 and put up as candidates all of those people who were in the last parliament? —— confusion? are you now able to accept that de facto madrid rule is the order of the day and you will play by the rules of madrid going forward ? play by the rules of madrid going forward? to answer your first question, yes that be the answer to the second question, no. but the two are interlinked, because if you are prepared to fight that election, you are doing it on the terms of madrid.

your parliament, the one you say is legitimate, has been dissolved. the order of the election is coming from madrid. you are recognising direct role by taking their request to fight the election. that is the madrid line that is the argument of the spanish government. i am sure the spanish government. i am sure the bbc, which takes a neutral sta nce the bbc, which takes a neutral stance on this and professionals like you will actually like to hear oui’ like you will actually like to hear our opinion on that. we don't see it interlinked. in fact, we see that madrid and mr rajoy specifically had to call the election not out of strength, but out of weakness. he did not want to do it. he announced there would be no elections in six months, maybe one year, then he does it in the legal minimum, a month and

a half. someone forced him, convince them, to call them that it was a concession. that is a sign of weakness. he is strong enough to call it, obviously, but not enough to delay them. because his intention, and he said it quite clearly, it was a statement by mr rajoy on television. he said he would suspend article 155, putting direct rule on catalonia, putting the police under the orders of the ministry of the interior in madrid. his inability to do that is what led to the election. we are entering the madrid line... it is interesting, there's talk of where the weakness in the strength lies. i mean, again, looking at the facts, as i try to do, you and others in the independence movement said there would be mass civil disobedience if madrid imposed direct rule under article 155 of the constitution.

look at the last couple of days. there has not been mass civil disobedience. public sector workers, teachers, police, firefighters, they have worked as normal. senior police officer is dismissed from posts advised junior officer is to continue. people in barcelona and other towns and cities look pretty normal to be in fact, the biggest rally we have seen since this crisis reached the point of udi was actually a pro—union rally where up toa actually a pro—union rally where up to a million people went onto the streets expressing support for the continued union of catalonia inside spain! yeah. there were some scenes of violence in the aftermath of all those demonstrations by pro— fascist groups, but we can also say... with respect, alfred bosch, where was the mass civil disobedience that you predicted? carles puigdemont referred to that in his press

conference in brussels. the issue is whether we would like to see violence, whether we would like to see bloodshed, because the threat was there. we saw with the madrid government, the spanish government, we saw what they were capable of doing, sending police against ordinary unarmed defenceless civilians, and we saw that on october one, and you broadcast that all over the world. so we know what they are kept ball of doing. there we re very they are kept ball of doing. there were very serious threats on catalan society, and catalan petitions, like ca rles society, and catalan petitions, like carles puigdemont, received those threats, and they have decided to stop people mobilising. —— politicians. that would have led to a massive confrontation. does anyone wa nt a massive confrontation. does anyone want that? note. we are a peaceful and civilised people. we will carry on in and civilised people. we will carry onina and civilised people. we will carry on in a civic and very peaceful manner like we have always done. is

thatis manner like we have always done. is that is why we are standing for the selections. we want to turn them into a plebiscite. we have that opportunity. let's turn it around and try to win the elections. let's do it again. what will he do? that is a very interesting point and an interesting challenge to rajoy did you have just made. an interesting challenge to rajoy did you havejust made. you clearly have expressed your confidence that the pro— independence parties will emerge victorious on december 20 one. but that if around to europe. the indication of what you are saying is that there is a recognition that if you do not win a clear majority — that is the pro— independence parties do not emerge victorious on december 21. your declaration of independence will be null and void and your dream of independence is shattered. would you accept that? i would accept that we

had to pursue our goals through democracy and through the vote. and through free, peaceful methods. we have been doing that for seven yea rs, have been doing that for seven years, at least, actively. we have one popular consultation. we have one popular consultation. we have one unofficial binding referendum... no, no, no,... unofficial binding referendum is not straitly true, what you said. it was not an official binding referendum. the constitutional court dismissed it, the spanish courts do not recognise it, nor any other members of the european union, and you in your party is regarded that as binding, but it was not persuasive to those authorities that matter. no, sorry. sorry. i must argue on that. you are obviously following the line of the spanish governed. no, no, i am not following any lines. i am looking at the facts. the catalan referendum

was approved in parliament. and it was approved in parliament. and it was enacted by law. and it was binding because the law said it was biting. and the spanish constitutional court decreed that that particular law and the calling of that referendum by the catalonian regional government and parliament was not constitutional.” regional government and parliament was not constitutional. i might grant something: if you only, if you only argue according to spanish law, obviously, we should concede that. if you argue with fundamental rights and democratic rights, obviously people have the right to vote. they had it in scotland. they had it in quebec. they have added all over the world. with the agreement that the national sovereign governments releva nt to national sovereign governments relevant to those particular cases — you never had the agreement of madrid, and that is the point. but if you don't mind, let's address whether right now you truly believe

you have a majority of catalans on yourfor you have a majority of catalans on your for the consistent push toward full, practical independence. let me quote you the words of a highly respected figure in catalonia, that is the mayor of barcelona, who you know very well. she says this: " what i see is a headlong dash at kamikaze pace which has been concentrated with this declaration of independence in the name of catalonia, but does not have the support of a majority of t t’ t 5 ’ fi