guess is david miliband, head of the uk—based international rescue committee, and a former british foreign secretary. can this politician turned unitarian explain why governments worldwide are failing to meet the migration challenge? —— turns humanitarian. david miliband, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. to be back. how demoralising is it travelling the world trying to persuade governments that they should read doing many things they are not doing to address this global migration crisis? well, looking at the statistics, it is undoubtedly depressing. record numbers of people being displaced by conflict and persecution, as you

say. but actually, the human stories are of resilience and extraordinary courage and even renewal in the most difficult of circumstances. i think it was a filmmaker who went to the congo and said if you look at the statistics you are depressed but if you look at the people you have hope. as the head of an ngo, that is certainly the kind of philosophy or insight i get from the work we do around the world. i don't mean to diminish the importance of a one—on—one experience you have when you go to this conflict zones, but in the end, the statistics matter more, because it is the collective experience that really matters. if i plucked out of the air one crisis unfolding right now, that of the rohingya people, forced out of myanmar, now collected in appalling conditions in camps in bangladesh, 600,000 people at least... in the space of six or seven weeks. what on earth are you and all of the people who work on these sorts of crises able to do? the truth is, we are

there to staunch the dying and provide the basic modicum of dignity. but it takes politics to stop the killing. the humanitarian sector is inevitably dealing with the symptoms of political failure. my the symptoms of political failure. my argument is that we can do a much betterjob at dealing with those symptoms, even in the midst of the kind of political failure that leads to this massive exodus of people. so there is a job to renew the peace building, peacemaking mission that should be at the heart of foreign relations, but there is also a job to do to reform and improve the humanitarian aid sector, which is heroic, but could be more effective. that is why i come back to the opening question about dissolution. on both fronts it seems that failure is so much more common than success. on the political front, is so much more common than success. on the politicalfront, the is so much more common than success. on the political front, the myanmar government has not only not listen to the calls from around the world to the calls from around the world to stop earning those villages, it is actually still continuing in the face of condemnation. —— burning. and while you say we have to focus

on looking at these people in the short term, but then giving them hope of a better life in the long—term, governments around the world a re long—term, governments around the world are actually cutting their budgets for this sort of thing come in at expanding. some certainly are, not only in the western world, which not only in the western world, which not only in the western world, which not only wrote the laws on refugees after the second world war, and is the majorfunder of after the second world war, and is the major funder of aid. slashing budgets. donald trump has slashed the aid budget by a0%. budgets. donald trump has slashed the aid budget by 4096. his administration wants to. congress has defied the administration and rejected those budget cuts. of course, we would say that since the needs are rising, the budget should be rising. it is not true to say that the budgets have been slashed. that has been pushed back, in the us. it is important to recognise that there are some governments, unlike the governments, which actually show how to deal with this challenge effectively. the government of uganda, to take one example, the reason for mentioning it, and million refugees from south sudan have gone into you go and in the last year. what was the response of the ugandan government? not to

build walls. the response was, these people should be given land, every family given land, these people should be allowed to work, every aduu should be allowed to work, every adult about to work. these people should be given services, every kid allowed into school. and that is in allowed into school. and that is in a country with an average income of $962 per person per year. so there are examples of fear mongering and loading being developed amongst population is about the refugee crisis. -- population is about the refugee crisis. —— loathing. but there are also stories of heroism and determination to stand up. you are right to point the finger at governments that are not doing the right thing. you are also writes a point finger at relatively wealthy parts of the world. well, that was about to be my point. surely, if one is looking at those countries not prepared to countenance bearing part of the burden, the countries that are the most culpable are those who actually have the most resources, because they are in the best addition to offer long—term help. because they are in the best addition to offer long—term helplj agree. notjust in terms of keeping

people alive, but the other things you talk about, providing people withjobs, providing their you talk about, providing people with jobs, providing their children with jobs, providing their children with education, giving them a long—term chance to thrive. with education, giving them a long-term chance to thrive. and my argument is that it is notjust morally wrong to ignore those people, it is notjust the trashing of western history, if you like, to turn your back on the victims of war and persecution, the innocent victims of war and persecution. my argument is also that in a connected world it is actually a strategic mistake. i have just world it is actually a strategic mistake. i havejust come back from lebanon and jordan. those countries have put about 2 million refugees tween them, they have put them up. they have had insufficient help. they have had insufficient help. they have had insufficient help. they have been on a drip feed from the international community, geo— strategically shortsighted, as well as morally wrong. interestingly, you have introduced this word moral into the conversation. it is a word that appears time and again in this book you have written, called rescue. how come having been in politics for so

long you have now become so, if i may say so, naive and unrealistic about the degree to which qualities like empathy and ultras can drive policy—making ? —— like empathy and ultras can drive policy—making? —— altruism. like empathy and ultras can drive policy-making? -- altruism. well, hope people will notjust read the title, rescue, but also the subtitle, refugees and the political crisis of our time. the refusal to live up to international humanitarian law, never mind higher moral standards, is a real one. humanitarian law, never mind higher moralstandards, is a real one. i don't mind to be fair to myself, i will take the hits that are coming, but when i was foreign minister i went to the jaffna peninsula, i met sri lankan women who had pieces of paperfrom a sri lankan women who had pieces of paper from a government with the names of their husbands who had been taken away, and they were asking me, when will i see my husband again? and of course i didn't have a good a nswer to and of course i didn't have a good answer to give them. i don't think it is made to call others humanitarian issues. one of the things i have learnt in this job humanitarian issues. one of the things i have learnt in thisjob is that while it is true political failure causes humanitarian crisis, my point is also that it is

humanitarian crisis which then leads to political instability. the real money that he is to think you can ignore humanitarian needs, whether it is in north—eastern algeria, nigeria, pakistan, the middle east, and not expect to have political repercussions. it seems you are out of touch with the popular mood and 70 countries. arguably native country, the uk, the country you live in, the united states, the continent that is your home, europe. let me make me if i am —— let me say, the ideal of treating strangers are brothers and sisters can and must be maintained. in part, you say that by welcoming refugees into our own countries and embracing them in our places of work and our centres of worship and around our own dinner tables, are you really in sync with the way people in the rich western world a re the way people in the rich western world are feeling? i think the truth isiam in world are feeling? i think the truth is i am in sync with some. people often ask me what it is like to lead

a humanitarian organisation when people help refugees and displaced april, at a time of backlash against refugees, which is basically what you are saying. it is. my answer is that every person who fears refugees or doesn't want to give humanitarian aid, because most of the will be to people who are far away rather than entering european countries, for every person like that who is fearful, there is somebody else saying, hang on, this is my family history. this is the history of my neighbour. this is something that i am proud my country does. you see that polarisation rather than a simple backlash. my argument is that actually, the refugee crisis is manageable not insoluble, that it is to succumb to the worst form of fatalism to believe it is insoluble, and whether you are in business or politics whether you are a private citizen, there is a role for you to play, and that is what the book explains. if you are still a -- still an explains. if you are still a -- stillan mp explains. if you are still a -- still an mp for south shields, an industrial seat in northern england, which voted overwhelmingly for brexit, and all the social surveys

that choose —— social attitudes surveys suggest that was driven by an anti—immigrant feeling, if you we re an anti—immigrant feeling, if you were still an mp, do you think you would have the same faith in the arguments around altruism? would have the same faith in the arguments around altruism ?|j would have the same faith in the arguments around altruism? i have lots of faith in the common sense of people in south shields. this is what i would say if i was there and p.i what i would say if i was there and p. i would say that at the moment, the uk takes six refugees her parliamentary constituency. then i would say to the people of south shields, no way are you going to persuade me that six people are going to overwhelm or "flood" a constituency of 50 5000. and actually, britain can do more on the refugee resettlement fund without ever falling into the fallacy that written is going to take the 1.5 million refugees lebanon has taken. have you pause to consider why sermon have you pause to consider why sermon is successful nationalist opposition ‘s, such as in the czech republic the united states, have succeeded, in large part by delivering a message which is about

building walls, closing borders and telling immigrants they are not welcome? —— so many successful nationalist politicians. yes, and one of the reasons for writing this book was the complacency among people who think that well—managed refugee systems are agreed across partisan lines. we need to puncture that complacency. we need to make the argument about why it is not just a question about having a big pa rt just a question about having a big part but also a sound head, to say that managing the refugee crisis is not just the right thing to that managing the refugee crisis is notjust the right thing to do, it is the smart thing to do. notjust the right thing to do, it is the smart thing to dolj notjust the right thing to do, it is the smart thing to do. i keep coming back to this point. it is much easierfor you to coming back to this point. it is much easier for you to say this now, as the head of an ngo, than it ever was for you as foreign secretary or an mp representing an industrial zonein an mp representing an industrial zone in britain. the allegation against the government i was part of is not that it did too little to those people. it did too much. the allegation is that when the european union expanded to include eight countries in 2004, the argument, and it isa countries in 2004, the argument, and it is a correct argument, if that we re it is a correct argument, if that were should have had a transitional

plan for the arrival of those immigrants, not simply allow the free movement of labour. let me pause you there. that is interesting, what you havejust said. it is indeed true that tony blair's government, which you are pa rt blair's government, which you are part of, said open borders to the accession countries, all the those workers who came from countries that make you are arguing i would not have done that in government. actually, we did do that in government. we did have open access for the eight accession countries. the whole argument is about refugees. desperate migrants. these are not desperate migrants. they we re are not desperate migrants. they were people who, according to the rules of the eu, could come. i am a lwa ys rules of the eu, could come. i am always interested when a former politician confesses to the stakes. you think it was a fun mistake? absolutely. we didn't anticipate the number that would come in. you are right, though, to make the point that a refugee as distinct from an economic immigrant oran that a refugee as distinct from an economic immigrant or an economic migrant. a refugee as someone with a well founded fear of this fusion. the six 5 million figure that you quoted at the beginning of the

programme, 25 million refugees, 40 million internally displaced, are people who fled their homes because they are not safe in their own homes. those people have greater rights in international law, and their responsibilities greater, the states have a great responsibility towards them, and i would argue for good reason. it is not that refugees are good and immigrants are bad, it is that they are different. if you are not safe in your home it is right that you should have rights under international law. we need to defend them for reasons of morality, to use your word, but also for reasons of common sense. that's talk about security. you slipped in a reference to it in one of your a nswe rs reference to it in one of your answers and suggested it was wrong for politicians in the west to pose immigration as a security challenge. but actually, if you look at the fa cts o n but actually, if you look at the facts on the ground, a holy book politicians —— whole heap of politicians, starting with donald trump but one can look at france and the netherlands and elsewhere, have realised that if they connect

immigration to security of our mining and incredibly fertile area. two points i would make on that. one, and your question, if i may say so, did this, when the issues of immigration become mixed up with the issues of refugees, that is a recipe for trouble. because there are very large numbers of people who want to emigrate, and relatively speaking, smaller, a quarter or even one fifth the number, who are refugees. so the first thing is, the refugee regime is different from the immigration regime. the second point, that is really important, is that refugees in the us, and i think you have the quota there, donald trump called syrian refugees the trojan horse that was coming to america. now, it is harder to get to america as a refugee than any other route. it ta kes refugee than any other route. it takes 18 months of vetting, 12— 15 government agencies, you are put through the mill to make sure you are not going to be a threat to the united states when you come as a resettled refugee. the truth is they have become a

tragic americans because they know the value of freedom. and don't they do it when they get the chance. let us do it when they get the chance. let us switch from the refugee crisis to, perhaps a computing, a personal journey you have been making in recent yea rs, journey you have been making in recent years, or way from britain and politics dashmac clunky. your decision to go to new york, to take thejob at the decision to go to new york, to take the job at the head of international rescue, was it part of dealing with a grievously painful process, you needed to get out, you needed a safe haven of your own. i was a backbench mp in britain who had previously been foreign minister. i would not wa nt to been foreign minister. i would not want to claim safe haven. you know what i am saying. coming out of my mouth that might seem like i am trying to claim a degree of high ground that i don't deserve. i was clear that they faced, by 2012, 2013, i was in the situation where

either i was silent about the position of my party, or i was accused of dividing my party. for those who do but, you ran for the leadership of the party, were favourite to win it, you ultimately beaten by your younger brother, ed miliband. it was in a sense, rejection, and fady in the face of your own family member, but a rejection from your own wider family, the labour party, of which it had been a member all of your aduu it had been a member all of your adult life. it must have been extraordinarily difficult to deal with. yes, yes. but part of being an aduu with. yes, yes. but part of being an adult rather than a child is that you learn to deal with these things. many adults find it very difficult to do with rejection. i always say whether you are running three double go for the leadership of a party, if you feel like you cannot consecrate —— at the consulate is a project you should do it. you need to think about what you would do if you win but also what you do if you don't. i was in the position where we lost the general election in 2010, i lost the general election in 2010, i lost the leadership election. i wanted to

make sure i could put into practice what i had learned. what i have had the privilege to do for the last four years is to lead a humanitarian organisation that has not has grown in size, helping 26 million people, not just in size, helping 26 million people, notjust in budget, we are a now $750 billion organisation, but is also charting a new course for the way in which humanitarian aid can be adapted to the demands of the modern world. we have talked about your ideas on that already. i now want to stick with what you left behind, thatis stick with what you left behind, that is the labour party, your career, and the personal issues. why do you think you lost?|j career, and the personal issues. why do you think you lost? i think that people wanted more of a change. they decided that they wanted more of a shift from the governing philosophy, i say shift from the governing philosophy, isay in shift from the governing philosophy, i say in the book, that i made the transition from governing to campaigning to slowly. you mean you we re campaigning to slowly. you mean you were not a good enough retail politician? maybe. you can say that.

i think it was a time shortly after the financial crisis, the beginnings of the tumult in politics, and although i have tried not to spend all my time reflecting on the past, it isa all my time reflecting on the past, it is a perfectly legitimate question to ask, but i think there's two factors eyesight are probably the right ones. is notjust personal, it is also political. —— it is not disposal. your brother did not win either. the labour party now chosen leader, jeremy corbyn, who was avowedly socialist and avowedly of the real left, not the ce ntre—left, of the real left, not the centre—left, the blairite left. of the real left, not the centre-left, the blairite left. we are the centre—left. centre-left, the blairite left. we are the centre-left. you would never call yourself a socialist stop—go ha pless fa n of call yourself a socialist stop—go hapless fan of socialist values. there is a social democratic tradition. i always vote labour and encourage people to vote labour. the truth is, politics is open. he did

better in the last election and many of us thought, but there are no civil -- of us thought, but there are no civil —— silver medals and politics. the question now is where does britain go. i think that is notjust a question about labour versus conservative, the truth is britain faces an even bigger question before it faces a labour versus tory election. what is its future as an economic, social, and political power in the world? that is wrapped up power in the world? that is wrapped up in this brexit issue, which goes beyond the party politics. your old boss, tony blair, has very much and the fray on the brexit issue. he speaks about it a lot. he says there is no question in his mind that this is no question in his mind that this is not settled, that the british public has a right to change its mind and he still believes there is a serious possibility that britain ultimately won't leave the european union. do you feel the same and are you prepared to fight the fight in the way that tony blair is? we don't

know how this is going to play out, this brexit phenomenon. this brexit decision. we also know that democracy cannot be allowed to die the day of a referendum. the referendum on june 23, the day of a referendum. the referendum onjune 23,2016 the day of a referendum. the referendum onjune 23, 2016 cannot be the end of debate, scrutiny, questioning about whether this brexit decision is in the interests of the people. it is a decision. we know we are leaving. article 50 was triggered a long time ago. know we are leaving. article 50 was triggered a long time agom know we are leaving. article 50 was triggered a long time ago. it is a very british thing to think that because you have ordered a milk you have to eat it, even if it comes to your table in have to eat it, even if it comes to yourtable ina have to eat it, even if it comes to your table in a very different form from what look like on the menu. what do you think the chances are then... ?i what do you think the chances are then... ? iwill what do you think the chances are then... ? i will not what do you think the chances are then... ? iwill not give what do you think the chances are then... ? i will not give you a percentage. written is on a course to leave. but that does not mean it is certain that is going to happen —— britain. every week there are new fa cts —— britain. every week there are new facts that come before the british people. that's about the fact that

we will have two create our own repertory structures. facts about the political implications. i have described this is an act of unilateral political disarmament. our withdrawal from the european union. let me quote the words of william hay, a former foreign secretary. he said this reflecting on the notion that there might be some change of heart in britain, a new referendum will study said, "there is no alternative to making brexit work will. millions of people would be enraged by an elite tried to overturn their opinion." mindful of how the people of your old constituency voted, can you not see that he is right and it would be damaging and corrosive to the uk to reopen this? the question is whether it would be more damaging than proceeding to drive off the cliff. that is what we are being asked. wiliam hague, having voted to remain, he says he would vote to leave in the interest of consistency. i think in the interests of the health of the

country. the truth is, it would be wrong, i think i says an elite to cut under decision of millions of voters. my point is, millions of voters, first of all, parliament should be able to compare life within the european union and light outside. and they never had what life outside will be presented to them. it is essential that it is. the fact that brexit are becoming clear. europe is changing under the leadership of mr macron and mrs merkel. there is a new dynamic. final thought. wearout of time. phil collins, it someone you know well, he said "imagine a third force in british politics now, david miliband comes back from new york to lead it, it would be attracting new people into politics. could that not too well? i believe it could. i doubt it is just well? i believe it could. i doubt it isjust me. it well? i believe it could. i doubt it is just me. it would well? i believe it could. i doubt it isjust me. it would be well? i believe it could. i doubt it is just me. it would be exciting to find out." so how about it? the real

lesson of emmanuel macron is different... never mind the lesson of macron. i want to know if you will listen to phil collins, come back, and because labour doesn't put you any more, think about a third party? i am not spending my time thinking about a third party, for a couple of reasons. the british parliament system is very different from the french presidential system. the two mean british political parties got more votes between them that any election since bettoni five. the third issue is the brexit issue which goes beyond the question of new parties. it is about existing parties and existing mps coming to grips with their responsibilities. is that a categorical no casilla i did not city part in which, there is already a central particle the liberal. the real issue is for progressive centre—left thinking to renew and are a vital as itself —— ce ntre—left renew and are a vital as itself —— centre—left party. it is the

pressures that face industrialised western countries. we have to enter. david miliband. they being on talk. —— thanks for being on hardtalk. a cold night out there and frost on the way. first thing on friday morning you might even have to scrape your car windows. the good news is that the weather is looking good. lots of sunshine around. lots of clear, crisp autumn weather on the way. on thursday we saw a cold front moving across the uk and behind the cold front we have colder air and that cold air is in place right across the country right now. through the course of the night the skies have cleared the cold front out on the continent there.

temperatures in towns and cities around 2—3 degrees. in rural spots it could be as low as minus four celsius just before sunrise. really chilly nights out there. the cold nights won't last for very long. we have some slightly milder weather on the way. more on that in just a second. this is what it looks like around eight o'clock in the morning on friday. a slightly different story in scotland. not quite the sunny skies. plenty of showers around in the western isles and the north of scotland. quite strong winds. across northern ireland, wales, and much of england it is a crisp start to the day. you can see the city centre temperatures around 2—3 degrees. even three degrees in the centre of london, which is pretty nippy and for exeter at eight o'clock in the morning. beautiful morning on the way right across the uk. quite a wind blowing across scotland and particularly the far north, even touching gale force at times. showers moving in. some of the showers will be wintry, particularly across the hills. a polar air mass from the northern climes. temperatures will get up to only

about eight degrees for most of us. that is briefly. earlier in the day it will be lower than that. it looks like we are in for another clear and cold friday night. that will not last for very long. there is some cloud and light rain heading our way. saturday morning looks like it will be cloudy across many parts of england and wales, particularly in the south. by the time we get to about lunchtime those clouds will start to break up and there will be some sunshine on the way. saturday, admittedly, is looking a little bit mixed. sunday we are between weather systems. one weather system in the baltic and one in the atlantic. we are in a weak area of high pressure. there will be some sunshine around, particularly in eastern areas. there is a low in the atlantic heading our way and the anticipation is that there will be cloud and rain spinning into some western and south—western areas a little bit later on on sunday. as i said, the cold air will not last for very long, by the time we get to sunday night and into monday the colder air is swept away and the milder atlantic air returns. goodbye. this is the briefing.

i'm ben bland. our top story: with president mugabe still under house arrest, a senior us official says washington is hoping for a "new era" for zimbabwe, after the military takeover. desperation for millions living on the brink of famine in yemen. saudi arabia's foreign minister says his country is not to blame. we have said these measures are temporary in order to make sure we have mechanisms to prevent the smuggling of weapons and missiles that can be launched at saudi arabia from yemen. the elderly ukrainians crossing the front—line, from rebel controlled areas every dayjust to get their pensions. in order to get their money, basically the pensioners have to lie and cheat the system. tesla unleashes the beast.