tv Dateline London BBC News November 20, 2017 3:30am-4:01am GMT
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the zimbabwean president, robert mugabe, has defied widespread demands that he step down. in a highly—anticipated speech to the nation, mr mugabe announced his intention to lead next month's ruling zanu—pf party congress. the party has given him until midday on monday to resign orface impeachment. talks to form a coalition government in germany have collapsed throwing chancellor angela merkel‘s future into doubt. the leader of the liberal free democrats said his party was pulling out because it had not been possible to find a basis of trust with chancellor merkel‘s christian democrats. us planes carrying underwater rescue equipment have arrived in argentina to help hunt for a missing argentine submarine. the sanjuan disappeared four days ago in the south atlantic with 44 crew on board. britain, chile and brazil have also joined the rescue effort. now on bbc news, it's time for dateline london. hello and welcome to dateline
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london. this week we are discussing zimbabwe and it is future. and we look at another apparently difficult few days in the brexit talks. is there a stalemate between britain and the rest of the eu? plenty to discuss. he is janet daley, the american writer and broadcaster geoff mcallister, the africa specialist doctor vincent, and the irish times correspondence suzanne lynch. a warm welcome to all of you. when it is a coup not a clue? zimbabwe's when it is a coup not a clue? zimba bwe‘s military put
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when it is a coup not a clue? zimbabwe's military put 93 while robert mcgarvey under house arrest on wednesday. he has been in power for 37 years, but as we go to air, tens of thousands of people are out on the streets of curare demanding he stands down. he was briefly seen in public on friday at a university graduation ceremony or allowed to be seen, perhaps we should say. vincent, who is currently in charge? you mentioned the graduation. he actually slept through it. he was caught napping. i think what's happening is interesting but this is sometimes, in africa, in the midst of pain and struggle, it is a lot of fun that goes on. first of all, it is not occui’. goes on. first of all, it is not occur. it is a president that is not a president. in a more serious way, i think we can comfortably say that his political journey is i think we can comfortably say that his politicaljourney is at the end, is politically dead, sorry to use.
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you can't use that for a ioo—year—old man. iwish you can't use that for a ioo—year—old man. i wish in very good health, but let him respect. this is an african tradition, something that we say all people are supposed to be the wise ones. usually they have a lot of sense, the people sit around and they tell us the people sit around and they tell usa the people sit around and they tell us a lot of good things. let him do the right thing, let him respect his age. this goes for notjust mcgarvey, but this is very good for africa because in my own country, uganda, you have 70 something gears, there is a constitution which says limit 75. as we speak, the demonstrations, people are putting on the red to say, don't touch that because what are these old people doing for africa? they will liberate us, mcgarvey was a liberator. he got
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land for the people, even if he gave land for the people, even if he gave land to the wrong people. but he liberated zimbabwe from white rule. he has destroyed his credibility until he is 100. try to create a family dynasty. but i think try to create a family dynasty. but ithink in try to create a family dynasty. but i think in his own mind, there has been a suggestion that i would be given the biggest type of sendoff. i think he is not going to get that 110w. think he is not going to get that now. he could get it, because they are doing it in the right way. there is this thing of try to say we respect him, he is an elder, he is a liberator. but he has been very stubborn. that is to the point, isn't it. you make all those points, he, as we understand, is still refusing to stand down. in reality, what happens now? there are people out on the streets. i think today is the real showing of
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what might happen. where are these people, they have had to think the army is going to hand the power to them on a plate. they had to fight for it. we see the people on the streets. what i have had is they are trying to steal the space within that much. this is about mcgarvey going, but what they want to do is end, he rules, they have elections. they live in poverty or two. it has got to be a battle. it has to be fought by the democracy. the 93—year—old himself... they are adamant they want to hold onto power. how much of a revolution is
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it really if it's about putting in a new person who is not particularly young? that is why what we can have comforted is the movement has been going for a while now, even if the leadership has sometimes been fractured, but the people, the activists have been the turing and all my hope is they will now come out and keep coming out until they forced the army. the army is now in. if they do the right thing... pro—democracy forces are always united at this point. it is what happens after that they fracture. rememberthe arab happens after that they fracture. remember the arab spring. there is a terrible lesson there. you get rid of the grey old man, the sentimental attachment of the liberator, and you end up with chaos or maybe you end up end up with chaos or maybe you end up with democracy. maybe this is very good news. but we won't know for a while whether it is terrible all good news. if we see the pro—democracy movement, refusing to
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go off the streets until the right... and the right thing is... the essence has to be democratic elections. are they going to call democratic elections? how long will the transitional government remain? will it become a kind of continuity? this is one now being removed, all the power structure around him continues. all the intelligence, all the corruption, all tight leathers on powers. it's like getting real stalin. and now it is right, the long—term fundamental direction has to be in favour of democracy. the democracy movement have been crushed before. it is not entirely crushed. we have been through this and a lot of people have been killed and they have to be reticent about putting their necks on the line. there is so
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much jockeying their necks on the line. there is so muchjockeying internally. it is interesting that it is a coup that is not a coup. so all the forces are still going to try to hold on as much as they can. the point of hope is we have already been there. it shows that mugabe himself, at one point or another, started realising you cannot just point or another, started realising you cannotjust do it your own way. they have managed to terminate his full power. they are manipulating them. that is the danger. who are they manipulating in the name of? china is a big player in this and china's interests, china is becoming an economic superpower china's interests, china is becoming an economic superpower in the developing world. it is like russia in the cold war, but this is economic. this is a deal and it means that if a confrontation potentially with the west for influence over this region. so this
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isn't being conducted in a vacuum. also, the role of the other countries around, and to see zululand speak, south africa being hailed as a mediator force zululand speak, south africa being hailed as a mediatorforce in zululand speak, south africa being hailed as a mediator force in these discussions is quite interesting considering the issues happening internally. the power struggles within the anc and him being such a problematic figure his cell. i don't trust african union. they are divided, ruptured within its own format. for example, we have bought lama, the president of botswana that has said categorically that mugabe must go immediately. in a very interesting things because it forces go there you have mainly angolan soldiers but also south african soldiers. we have a very interesting involvement. since they are all dictators, they went away, we have
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this new president who seems to be trying to say, look, we shouldn't move intojust trying to say, look, we shouldn't move into just support. trying to say, look, we shouldn't move intojust support. he is trying, just days ago he started attacking the family, he fired the daughter who has been running the oil. there is no anonymity to save we just want to impose zanuck pf. but all the... me in we just want to impose zanuck pf. but allthe... me in uganda, in africa, in zimbabwe, is the activists, pro—democracy movement that will define whether anything goes out that will define whether anything goes our way or that will define whether anything goes our way or not. that will define whether anything goes our way or not. to your point, in terms of the next few weeks, you are in terms of the next few weeks, you a re clearly in terms of the next few weeks, you are clearly saying that the pro—democracy forces have to be united here and that actually we are they really pivotal few days. but i knew i was coming to this programme, there wasn't an issue of demonstrations. i was going to call
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the demonstrations. now it has come, but we're also seeing some fractures within the movement on the street, we see that the tactics, the vetera ns we see that the tactics, the veterans and others to grab that space. . the movement to demonstrate just a year ago, there were thousands and thousands. we were seeing the army, the police. let them come out and it should be, they have organised themselves, . .. them come out and it should be, they have organised themselves,... but the egyptians, when people come together, they make little change. here we have so many fractures, i think the luck is on their side. mugabe is going, that was the main block. now we have the other which is in two minds. we want to change. if the army is under a lot of pressure, i believe they will want to do the right thing because otherwise, the army will continue
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facing a lot of pressure. that economy will continue collapsing. facing pressure in the streets. demonstrations in the streets always eventually dissipate. unless you can turnit eventually dissipate. unless you can turn it into institutional change, systematic political change and reform, it goes nowhere and it ends very often in violence and really bloodcurdling scenes, tanks in the streets. demonstrations in the streets. demonstrations in the streets are a sign of really serious disillusion and dissatisfaction. but they don't and themselves. in the next few days, if we have a transition government, then it will tell us where the government, where this movement is going. do we know where grace mugabe is? does it matter? she is in the toilet. i'm just joking. matter? she is in the toilet. i'm justjoking. she was the target of the army officers. each is in the barber, she is really hiding. i
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think it doesn't matter where she is right now. she cannot take power. the fact that she was the target of this not a coup means it was a personal thing, it was about particular personalities. it is not about institutional change. so you get rid of the person you don't like and you put in the person you do like and that is the end of that. that could be the way it goes. just like we are doing in uganda, the zimbabweans have to do that. let's see whether that turns out in the coming days and weeks. in other news, the world stalemate has been heard an awful lot of going this week, not for the first time or in relation to the brexit talks. the prime was a charm offensive at a summit sweden. the secretary of state was being a function in interviews in berlin. reminding eve ryo ne interviews in berlin. reminding everyone the clock is ticking. meanwhile, the chancellor delivers his budget to westminster this coming wednesday. will the contents
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of the ministerial red box be enough to get things on track, perhaps save theresa may's premiership. and not to chew over. you're laughing. if that a nervous laugh? they are not negotiate —— negotiations any more. it is eight hostage crisis. you had to remember that for the eu, it is eight hostage crisis. you had to rememberthat forthe eu, it it is eight hostage crisis. you had to remember that for the eu, it is terribly important that this all looks as bloody as possible and as difficult as possible in order to discourage anybody else who might get this idea, don't try this at home. they could rake grease on the wheel because it was a tiny failing economy, a basket case and the population didn't want to leave the eu, that is not the case with britain. britain is the second largest contributor to the budget. it is understandable that they should be getting worried about the money but the idea that they are creating now the smokescreen, you may disagree with me, about their border on ireland. nobody wants a
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ha rd border on ireland. nobody wants a hard border with ireland. nobody in britain, nobody in northern ireland or southern ireland wants a hard border with ireland. if they were left to negotiate this themselves with goodwill, this could be resolved quite easily, but the eu is stoking this up so that it doesn't look as if it's all about money. they have admitted progress has been made on the business of the rights of eu citizens living in britain. that seems to be one area there has been something. and it would have been something. and it would have beena been something. and it would have been a good idea if written had said right from the off all eu citizens living in britain will continue to have the same rights. that would have the same rights. that would have been the right thing to do, the unilateral gesture, but it would have wrongfooted the eu response. we couldn't have been accused of using them as pawns and all that but we are where we are on the progress on that seems to be going quite well. it isa that seems to be going quite well. it is a money that is the issue and it is also the fact that the eu is determined to make this look as difficult and with the cooperation
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of people within britain who don't wa nt of people within britain who don't want to see this happen, it is trying to create as much of a sense of doom and despair as is politically possible. it is working, isn't it? it is and it isn't. the people who write to me say so. that everytime jean—claude juncker opened his mouth, 1 million britons rome why they voted the way they did. —— remember. if we had a second vote now, it would prove the 60- 40. let's not debate a second referendum today. we can debate money, because we hear that in the coming days, theresa may will perhaps talk about — of course, it is denied by number ten, as you
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know, everyone— what is to come. this is a blip in terms of the european budget and economy. nobody ca res european budget and economy. nobody cares about the money. i think this is... no, really. the britsjabba the money, but nobody else does. we are the second largest contributor! it is still big deal. —— care about the money. if britain wants to leave, it has 2— levy continue. to me, this reminds me of my wife, she was there and all the students asked if god can make a square circle. and the nun said that go to make
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anything. —— manager. the brexiteers believe we can be happy and have our ca ke believe we can be happy and have our cake and eat it. like with the irish border. you can either have ireland inside the eu and the customs union, or you can have it not. you cannot keep things otherwise. the irish premier has said it is not the europeans are manipulating anything. yes it is, yes. this has suddenly become a huge again.|j yes it is, yes. this has suddenly become a huge again. i think this is a serious issue over the last few months. just to recap, there are three issues that have to be resolved before europe says that we can move on to phase two of the brexit negotiations, which is the trade relationship between britain and europe. the really hard stuff! but one of the things that has come out is the borders. that is the other important issue. dhody was to return to a hard border. there seems
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to be no plan about how to avoid that. now ireland has basically up the nt in the last few days and really wa nt the nt in the last few days and really want is a written commitment. “ manager. really want is a written commitment. —— manager. they worried now that it is not agreed, it will get lost in everything else. it would have put too much on the table. ireland is caught in the middle. there is an eu summit in fourweeks caught in the middle. there is an eu summit in four weeks time, which is crucial. are we looking at a situation where ireland will veto moving onto the next eight? island has tried to keep england happy, brussels happy, but there are hundreds of people working on this. the second issue, to pick up again, what you said, this idea of your playing hardball, what you said, this idea of your playing hard ball, causes what you said, this idea of your playing hardball, causes will be tough. the date britain voted to leave, i was in brussels at the
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time, and donald tusk said they have gone. they have left. 0urjob is to look after the 27 other countries that are here. of course there will be tough and try to maintain — yes, they want a relationship with britain, but it is 27 countries against one. yes, it is one important country with a big contribution to the budget, but they'd don't think there should be any surprise that 27 countries to work together against the uk. sure. your smile, work together against the uk. sure. yoursmile, iam work together against the uk. sure. your smile, i am curious to hear what you think about that. your smile, i am curious to hear what you think about thatm your smile, i am curious to hear what you think about that. it is interesting to me as it from africa all this. they are really squabbling ina way all this. they are really squabbling in a way that british people do. just because the brexit, i think if the referendum had come up, britain would still be leading. but what i suspect is i would be surprised if
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britain crashes out without a deal. but you know why? because our friends, the brexiteers, as i suspect from a long time since that whole referendum started, these are types of people who don't mind having britain with lots of problems. life will do various things. aj scales, industry, everything. so there are people, these brexiteers, i would say, who don't mind that. for them, what matters is that we are running the show. and people like me go home, whether wanted here. that is true! parliamentary sovereignty and the immigration question are two different things. note that the referendum was at the heart of the referendum. —— the issue was at the
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heart of the referendum. i would assert that uganda, you have your brexit. african migrants were not in the question at all. this is about the question at all. this is about the eu migration. yes, but this is about us being unspoken victors. your point about europeans, europeans, europeans, that is ok. but you cannot send us away anybody knowing. and what immigration actually suffered because we had to let in an unlimited number... brexit wa nts to let in an unlimited number... brexit wants to stop that. i'm sorry, that is not true. on those two issues, i think what was interesting in parliament in britain is the debate thatis parliament in britain is the debate that is going on about how much they the mps will have over the shape of brexit. a lot of it was then people are not accepting the referendum result. but there is a deep irony that one of the reasons people to
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get out of the european union was to restore sovereignty of parliament. the people who suddenly this week have this absurdly mad sentimental attachment to the idea that parliament should have the sake of these are the people who have been giving it away for 40 years. these are the people who accepted the committees act of 1972, which meant that european law that president over british law. —— european law took precedent. as you pointed out, suzanne, we have a coming up. but next week we have philip hammond and the budget. we read plenty about crisis in theresa may's leadership, how she is holding on, and there is another side to that, of course, but jelena jankovic your thoughts on the budget, what it might achieve, where it takes us in terms of all of this? —— macgowan. it takes us in terms of all of this?
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-- macgowan. she is weak. she has a minority government. but on the other hand, germany has no government at all. it is conceivable that she had to call actions by the end of the year. we go on about the weakness of the present british government, we need to remember that we are spoilt by stable majority government. in europe, where they had to have confessors and coalition governments, the holding is on a much more delicate balance. —— have consensus. and the delicate balance of this, the ideas of a emmanuel macron and his napoleonic ideas of a united europe, the power on the other side of this is the influx, as well. in terms of, you know, hammond, he might be the chancellor must lot to make longer. —— much
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longer. there is not a lot of running room. there is not a lot of extra money that anyone can find, given austerity, and given his commitment to continuing things. there may be some changes in young people and housing, on student loans and that sort of thing... people and housing, on student loans and that sort of thing. .. a lot of theseissues and that sort of thing. .. a lot of these issues will be raised. i'm sure will be clever, but i don't you can bea sure will be clever, but i don't you can be a game changer under the circumstances. the problem with this budget is that it is trying to say theresa may. and therefore i agree with lots of the labour politicians who are saying look, the budget to be about the people. you know who the people are? that the students and so on. the intergenerational war thatis and so on. the intergenerational war that is being stoked up is potentially dangerous politically and socially. it is quite difficult. the people are not disparaging about the lack of property and the lack of housing for young people at all. they worried about their children
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and their grandchildren. i figured asa and their grandchildren. i figured as a very and their grandchildren. i figured as a very unhealthy and perverse thing to soak up and intergenerational conflict. thing to soak up and intergenerational conflictlj thing to soak up and intergenerational conflict. i then think it is stoking up. or they are saying is do the right thing. the houses. 0r whatever. infrastructure. help the country to grow. just to come back to the germany issue. you're right about the negotiations going on in the letter going on berliner former government, but these happen all the time it in germany. this happened four years ago. the only thing is angela merkel as we can at the last election. but from the brexiteers point of view, they would rather than angela merkel was there. she is very pragmatic. what i'd bet that what i have learned is that jimmy will really decide how this goes. but all the talk of barnier it will be angela merkel and the manual macron. ——
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emannuel macron. that is of the night. see you next week. —— that is all for tonight. hello. it's safe to say there is a lot of weather to come in the week ahead. low pressure after low pressure will be coming in from the atlantic. this is how we are starting the week. still cold enough for a bit of snow into the scottish hills for monday morning. but milder air will be pushing in across much of the uk for a time this week, because it looks like this will be pushed away by colder air, again from the north, by the end of the week. but this is how we start off on monday — some snow on the hills in northern scotland, so some slushy roads for higher—level routes here. a lot of rain elsewhere in scotland to begin with, and a lot of cloud across the uk.
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still chilly, then, in northern scotland. we'll see the rain and the snow tending to fizzle out as we go through the morning in scotland, and some outbreaks of rain to begin with for northern ireland and northern england. come further south, yes, there's plenty of cloud. there isn't a huge amount of rain. damp and drizzly in places but what we will notice the most is how mild it is compared with recent mornings. starting the day across much of wales, the midlands, south—west england, the temperatures into double figures. so the milder air moving in, but it's doing so with plenty of cloud. so we're hard—pressed to find much in the way of sunshine at all on monday. just a few brighter breaks to the east of high ground. outbreaks of rain fizzling out, but there will be patchy, mostly light rain still around into the afternoon in some spots. double—figure temperatures maybe even into southernmost parts of scotland, but elsewhere in scotland, still single figures for another day. so still a chilly feel, especially the further north you are. 0n through monday night and into tuesday morning, we'll take another spell of rain through northern england, through northern ireland, and into scotland. but any snow on the hills turning back to rain as we turn ten things milder here eventually,
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as we go on into tuesday. a very mild night elsewhere, but again with plenty of cloud. it looks pretty wet on tuesday, especially in northern scotland. though to the east of it, before any of it gets in, given any brighter breaks, again temperatures very mild, and a few spots reaching into the mid teens for a while midweek in the uk, with stronger winds for a time. you can see low pressure systems are queueing up some wetter, windier weather for a time mid—week, but we are expecting things to turn cold again by the end of the week. so the milderfeel may just be brief. rain at times, and a bit of snow, especially on the hills in scotland. 0ften windy at times this week, as well, and a colder wind by the end of the week. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers
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in north america and around the globe. my name is lewis vaughanjones. our top stories: robert mugabe defies his own party and refuses to resign as president of zimbabwe. in a speech to the nation, mr mugabe says he'll lead next month's party congress despite mounting calls for him to stand down. talks to form a coalition government in germany collapse, threatening angela merkel‘s position as chancellor. the us navy sends special tracking equipment to help in the hunt for an argentine submarine. and portugal's worst drought in decades affects thousands of honeybees, damaging honey production across the country.
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