this is bbc news. the headlines. the serbian president has urged his country to look to the future following the conviction of the former bosnian—serb military commander, ratko mladic. a un tribunal in the hague sentenced mladic to life in prison for genocide and crimes against humanity during the bosnian war of the 1990s. the new leader of zimbabwe has told a cheering crowd the country is witnessing the start of a new democracy. emmerson mnangagwa has returned to be sworn in as president on friday. he said his priority was rebuilding the economy and creating jobs for the large numbers of unemployed. an operation by papua new guinea police is under way at the australian refugee camp on manus island. officers say they intend to evict hundreds of refugees and asylum seekers, who are refusing to leave. detainees say they fear reprisals from local people if they transfer to other facilities. now on bbc news, it is time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalkam stephen

sackur. my guest today is one of the biggest selling fiction writers of all time, dan brown. is 2003 novel, the da vinci code, sparked outrage in the vatican. and now, another epic tale. a quest for the origins of life. is there still a public appetite for dan brown's high fibre blockbusters. dan brown, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you very much. usually the phrase that always follows your name is bestselling author. but actually, in reviews of the latest novel you have written, 0rigin, one critic came up with a new sort of monica or phrase for you, and that is not a list of ideas. —— moniker.” phrase for you, and that is not a list of ideas. -- moniker. i like that. i have heard many things, but i like that. i have never heard that about you. but it is sort of what you are about. i love to write about the grey area between right and wrong. moniker. one of the biggest questions of all is god. in some ways it is hard to package that into a genre that, perhaps you do not like this word, is a thriller.” love thrillers. i love to learn and i love to read. what i try to do is

create a book that is a lot of fun to read but you also learn something along the way. which is more important, entertainment or learning? they go hand in hand. they have to be intertwined or it does not work. i need something that tastes like ice cream but you get your vegetables. most children would say their mothers and fathers forced them to eat too many vegetables. do you ever think you are putting too much into it? are you trying to be too didactically? yes. sometimes i feel that. the substance. a very big idea at the heart of the latest book is the balance, when it comes to us human beings trying to explain where we have come from and what life is,

the balance between religious takes and explanations and scientific ones. you are struggling with this central idea that perhaps science has replaced god. historically, science has replaced god. the ancients had a whole pantheon of gods and ancients, everything they did not understand, rising tides and love. they used to say the tide was influenced by poseidon, his mood is shifting. then it was gravity and he fell as a guide. the question now is we naive to think this will not happen again? historically, gods do not survive. your background is interesting in that your family life involved a mother who was quite religious. she was involved in the church. you had a father who was a

rationalist and maths teacher. church. you had a father who was a rationalist and maths teacherli rationalist and maths teacher.” grew up with one foot in each world. exactly. i was comfortable with the paradox until i was nine years old and learned about adam and eve and genesis. i went to a museum in boston and found out about evolution. i went to my priest and said which story is true? he said nice boys don't ask about question. that was the moment for me that i realised i would ask many questions. —— that question. realised i would ask many questions. -- that question. is that what began your journey away from religion? absolutely. i moved to the solid foundations of science. i found the further i went away from religion, the stronger the ground became. but then you enter into the world of metaphysics and the ground gets soft again. are you against religion?

religion does a lot of good in the world. that moment with the priest is symbolic, perhaps. he made you feel uncomfortable. he said nice boys don't ask that sort of question. surely the extension of thatis question. surely the extension of that is that religion became something that made you feel uncomfortable. that is true. what i became uncomfortable with later is not religion. it is the banner of religion being waved as some kind of immunity from rational scrutiny. don't tell me i cannot ask a question. religion is doing no favours to young people by saying to participate you need to turn off that rational part of the brain that wa nts to that rational part of the brain that wants to ask questions. the story of adam and eve, i will add, wants to ask questions. the story of adam and eve, iwilladd, i can wants to ask questions. the story of adam and eve, i will add, i can read as the beautiful morality tale and a feeble. it helps us to understand where we came from. —— fable. but it

is amazing to me in 2017 we have congressman who will stand up and say the world is 2000 years old and the fossil record was put there to test our faith. it is inevitable that people, when they listen to this sort of conversation, they are mindful that you are the dan brown of the da vinci code. in 2003 after you wrote it, the catholic church in particular put onto you, accused you, of egregious falseness and undermining the key tenets of the faith which they said was purely false. now, has that, in the last 1a yea rs, false. now, has that, in the last 1a years, encouraged you to want to ta ke years, encouraged you to want to take on religion more? well, perhaps. it is interesting. and this will sound naive when the da vinci code came out, i had no idea it would be controversial. i was asking a hypothetical question... we will remind them. it is an extremely

complex story. at the heart of it was the notion that there was and is a conspiracy at the heart of christianity to hide the true story ofjesus christ. christianity to hide the true story of jesus christ. there was a mortal prophet, not literally the son of god. and you tell me you did not realise it would be controversial? it isa realise it would be controversial? it is a thriller! if you will faith is shaken to the core by a thriller, i think you need to look at your faith. and what happened with the book the reason it was so... so controversial, i guess, book the reason it was so... so controversial, iguess, is book the reason it was so... so controversial, i guess, is the only word, is that for a lot of people, the story i told him that novel made more rational sense than the story they heard it sunday school. —— at. it did for me. that is what is so dangerous. it sold hundreds of millions in the end and has been translated all over the world. one

of the problems that those defending the christian story had with the book is that they felt you mixed fa ct book is that they felt you mixed fact and fiction in a way that is unreasonable and lead readers to be deeply confused about where the line is. that is what i do. i do something in tension with these books. i try hard to take real documents and real art and history and interweave fictional characters so and interweave fictional characters so they have there own ideas and debate these topics. your authorial voice is telling us, i think, perhaps you can correct me, if i am wrong, in the da vinci code, you are telling me you believed in certain things like this secretive movement, the priory of scion in france, they are trying to deliver into power

descendants of jesus are trying to deliver into power descendants ofjesus christ in a secretive way. the feeling one gets in the book is you actually believe thatis in the book is you actually believe that is true. i personally do believe that is true. i have spent a long time researching it. you know that it has been thoroughly debunked. here is the thing, any time you write a book challenging historical... well, religion,... the issueis historical... well, religion,... the issue is history is not accurate. this is so germane to the times we live in today. you are suggesting what is true and what is not is not always, or perhaps even ever, truly decipherable. but it is beyond that, is it not, this idea of this secretive priory of scion, it was a hoax developed by a frenchman a long time ago. the research is in and you we re time ago. the research is in and you were hoax by it, but is it not time

to say you are wrong? how i decide to say you are wrong? how i decide to tell the story is, it is creative art. ican to tell the story is, it is creative art. i can pull what i want from history, some is real and some is not. i don't know enough about the priory of scion at this point to say if it is true or not. i have no idea. at the time i wrote it i believed it was true. have your ideas about it and further research changed your mind in any way since you wrote the da vinci code?” changed your mind in any way since you wrote the da vinci code? i have moved on from that story. it has not. i left it behind. it is important to remember these books... iam not important to remember these books... i am not try to convince anyone of an idea. i am trying to write an enjoyable book that gets people talking. if someone wants to believe it, great, if they say it is a thriller, that is fine to. it is just intended to get people thinking about why they believe what they believe. and this idea of faith news

110w believe. and this idea of faith news now is absolutely germane to the conversation. —— fake news. now is absolutely germane to the conversation. -- fake news. do you 01’ conversation. -- fake news. do you or not believe there is truth and falsehood and that we human beings have a duty to differentiate between the two? we do have a duty to differentiate as historians. as creative novelists, we have the duty to get people to go and ask questions and find the rain sources. hmm, see, that brings me back to the latest work, to 0rigin, because, at its heart is this figure who is perhaps analogous to some of the great tech gurus of our time, jeff bezos, whatever, this man, kirsch, he believes he has unlocked the secret to how life began in. it is sort of the essence of what we are. sure. and in the end, if i am

reading the book correctly, your conclusion seems to be there is a truly scientific explanation to life. it is out there. sure. somebody has got the secret. umm, so science wins, really, in your view. well, it is funny. every religion has a creation story that involves a supernatural power of some sort. so, to basically say, hey, what is life just happens, that has enormous implications for human. if we don't need god... if we don't need a creator. if we don't need a creator. what i am asking is what do you believe? are you able to tell me what you believe about, for example, where life begins? sure. going through the process of writing this book, talking to physicists and microbiologists, and listening to what has happened in the last two yea rs what has happened in the last two years in this field, i personally

believe the laws of physics are enough to create life. there is no god? i did not say that. i said the laws of physics alone are enough to create life. i do not know if there is no god. i no longer believe in the god of my childhood, a deity who sends his son down to crucify for my sins. ifeel like there is sends his son down to crucify for my sins. i feel like there is something a lot bigger than us. i don't know what it is. i don't have a word for it. i will not presume to describe it. i will not presume to describe it. it is ineffable. it is very hard for me to take that step into atheism. i certainly am moving in that direction, but for me, in my life, it is still hard to say there is nothing. is it not hard for you partly because you live in a society in the united states of america where it is quite difficult to be a very public figure who says i am an atheist. you are correct, but it is

getting easier to step out and say that. in america today? ok, today, we have strange things going on in america. i considered writing the trump code, but it is too unbelievable, even for me so but it is easy to smile, but it is also easy perhaps for an american to be alarmed at the state of your country. of course. 0ne alarmed at the state of your country. of course. one of the challenges with religion is reading metaphor as fact. that is one of the big dangers of religion, to take metaphors, a story like adam and eve, for example, and say that is absolute fact. not only are you not allowed to ridicule it, you have to teach your children. that is the danger. and other element of the public debate i am thinking of, people have questioned the validity of quote unquote expert opinion. —— another. climate change might be an example. andean donald trump's america, the heart and top of

government has people sceptical about climate change. —— to one do you see that is a trend that could ta ke you see that is a trend that could take us human beings to a dangerous place? it has more to do with politics that be if politics david global warming taking place, suddenly it would be. —— favoured. it isa suddenly it would be. —— favoured. it is a major issue for all of humanity. it is astonishing there is a question mark next to it. another theme in this book, artificial intelligence. in some ways you appear to be close to believing that the next phase of evolution will involve human beings somehow transforming with the help of

machines. i am not close to believing it, i believe it. we all carry little computers with us. it went be long before they are part of us. we can't function without our little machines. hearing aids will be implanted. scientists really disagree as to whether this is a good or bad team. some believe the power of ai will solve global issues of scarcity and over population. 0thers believe it will kill us, that we as a species have never created a weapon, rather, a technology that we haven't weaponised — fire that cooked our food eventually went on and burnt villages. nuclear power was turned into weapons. we would be naive to believe they won't be a dark side. i am an optimist and i think there is more love and hate and more creativity than destructive power

and that we will learn to use a! for good. let me ask you about the way you write. you, unlike some extraordinary successful thriller writers, do not churn out novel after novel after novel. we know some writers have assistants who helped them develop and the novel and then the master craftsman polishes it up and every year there is a new one. you are not like that at all. no. between 4—6 years, there is a pause. there is no pause, i'm working the whole time. i went researching into tokyo about1.5 years ago, read everything i could about al, creationism, darwinism, spain, modern art. enough that i could then go to this

areas and have intelligent conversations and educate myself enough so i knew what i could ask. these books are intricate and i want to make sure they are done right. i write scenes from many points of view and figure out how the scene is affecting each character. it is a pretty lonely life. it is. we were joking that i spend four years alone in the dark and then suddenly you are out and there is a spotlight in your face and they say, "go, be fascinating!" this is your moment in the daylight. exactly. in a funny sort of way, that makes you public property and a very public figure but someone who is hardly ever around. even in this conversation, you have said really fascinating things about science, about your concerns about your own country, about your concerns about where humanity is taking itself, and yet, for years on end, you are entirely silent.

i am putting it all into a novel to share. that's the only way i can write. i don't want to be influenced to formulate my ideas in public before they are really formed. i am not assuming anything about your politics but given what we see in american politics today, don't you ever feel like playing a more prominent role in being a public voice? maybe some sort of conscience. using your platform to talk openly about what you see in front of you? you know, ifeel like i do that through these books which reach an enormous population. i don't presume i have the answers. if i have created even dinnertime conversations about important topics, i have done myjob.

i am not looking to influence the way people think but at least get them to start thinking. the real danger is where people believe something without really asking themselves why they believe it. the second we ask, "why do we believe this?" and you have to qualify and quantify. when you really articulate it, you realise you don't believe it at all and that is the process that is most gratifying for me. do you have a lot of strong release? —— core beliefs. it is hard to read these books and know where you stand. i try to be fair and argue both sides of the question. i feel like i have thrown off the shackles and the character, the main character, he was able to say, we are at a dangerous time in human evolution. and religion is playing a dangerous role. a positive role also, but a dangerous role. this idea of having to shut down

rational thought in order to be religious is extremely dangerous and i was able to just come out and articulate that. interesting that you are so fascinated by the role of religion and you can see its dangers and yet you always, one has say in the books, from da vinci code to 0rigin, you focus on christianity. given the way the world works today and some of the other dangers we see a rising out of some forms of religious belief, why are you not addressing other religions? they share a gospel, islam, judaism and christianity. i wonder if you lent the same i, that you wouldn't. .. it hasn't occurred to me because it is something that i wouldn't do. christianity is my...

i write these books to ask myself these questions. christianity is my experience, it is the world that affects me most because these are my core values so i really write these books for myself, in many ways, to explore these ideas. that is why i continually choose christianity. you mentioned robert langdon and how he is cutting loose, to some extent. would it be right to say that professor robert langdon with his learning and his love of travel and his brilliant code breaking and everything else, is the guy you would love to be? that's the best way to say it. here's more daring, he is a lot more intelligent. somebody said to me, how can he be more intelligent because everything he says you have to think about. i pointed out that when robert langdon sees a painting, he says it takes in three days. people around the world want to know.

langdon is still out there cracking codes and travelling the world. how long can he go on? e have some pretty bad situations. he has tough luck and has ended up in some pretty bad situations. i think you need a vacation. ——i think he needs a vacation. you are now so known for this series. —— can you see yourself as still a young writer, going into a different genre, writing something so left—field that your staple audience would be surprised by it? i have ideas i can't possibly put out there in public. between you, me and them. i have books that would shock everyone. it is so far out of the realm. it would be fun to write.

fiction? non-fiction. you will come back. hopefully we will sit in a room this is spectacular and talk about it. dan brown, thank you for being on hardtalk. hello. a significant change on the way in our weather for the next few days. it will turn considerably colder, especially through the weekend. that said, the cold air is already moving into scotland and this morning there is a risk of some disruption, particular conditions on the road thanks to snow. radio scotland is a great place to keep up with conditions local to where you are. 25 centimetres of snow likely to lower levels this morning, 2—5 centimetres of snow likely to lower levels this morning, up to ten centimetres across highlands and the grampians.

by windy start to the day and it goes without saying, a pretty chilly one as well. for northern ireland, early showers for the north—west england as well. further south, a quieter picture. still quite windy but some early morning sunshine was a bit of cloud and rain through east anglia in the south east quite quickly. a few more isolated showers for the south—west and wales. in the more organised area of rain and snow will pull away from the north—east of scotland through the morning and be followed on by plenty of showers coming into the north and west to showers, northern ireland and northern england as well and many of these could turn wintry at times, especially when they get heavier. further south, more in the way of sunshine but a high of 1a in london and that colder air is sinking its way south across the british isles. by the time we reach friday, the cold air will make way and you can see on saturday and sunday it heads into europe and there's no chance of us getting warm in a hurry this weekend. this is the way

friday is shaping up. a frosty start across the northern half, a light wind on friday, the cloud and showers across the south for a time through the day. not such a bright day at today. definitely lower temperatures, still a risk of wintry showers. particularly for northern and western scotland. looking ahead to the weekend, there should be some lovely sunshine around but it will be tempered by a chilly wind and we are looking at a couple of frosty nights. a chilly north—western wind. more showers to the north and west. some of them could be wintry. and temperatures, on the face of it we are looking at highs of perhaps seven or eight degrees but it will feel cold in the wind. the same can be said for sunday, there will be a lot of sunshine around. if anything, perhaps sunday is the slightly quieter day of the two, slightly fewer winds and showers are still sitting in that cold air so it will be a chilly start. highs ofjust eight or nine at best.

this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top stories: after former military commander, ratko mladic, is convicted of genocide and crimes against humanity, serbian leaders urge the nation to look to the future. papua new guinea police move into the manus detention centre to evict hundreds of refugees and asylum seekers. emmerson mnangagwa, the man set to take over as zimbabwe's president on friday, says his priority is rebuilding the country's economy. switzerland and the eu square up over cash and immigration. are there lessons to learn for post—brexit britain? and the morning after the budget we assess the reaction to the chancellors sober forecast uk economy.