tv HAR Dtalk BBC News December 6, 2017 12:30am-1:00am GMT
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olympics in south korea. it follows an investigation into state sponsored doping. but the international olympic committee says individual russian athletes who pass a vetting process will be allowed to compete. a number of middle east leaders have told president trump that any plan to move america's embassy in israel tojerusalem will have dangerous repercussions. mr trump will make an announcement later on wednesday. and this video is trending on bbc.com. astronauts on the international space station have been enjoying a pizza party. the ingredients were sent up into space by nasa after an italian astronaut told mission hq that he was missing his favourite food. that's all from me now. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. a significant shift
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is afoot in the world winnie byanyima, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen. we have talked to quite a number of top officials on this programme, big bosses of international ngos, you are different from most because of your back story. do you feel somewhat different from your peers in this world? a little bit. not completely. i feel different because there are few heads, maybe i am the first, head of a global organisation from africa, from the south and who is a woman. combining all those three. so yes, sometimes i feel a bit different, but generally feel the same with my peers.
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we are all passionate, we share the same values and we fight the same causes. i am interested you picked that word fight, your life compared to most of your peers has been defined by this notion of struggle and fight. sometimes in the most liberal sense, because you did spend a couple of years in the ugandan bush fighting against the dictatorship in uganda. so for you, this idea of struggle does seem to be very, very real. it is. i grew up in a crisis country under a brutal dictatorship, i saw repression, i fled, i became a refugee, ijoined a struggle against dictatorship. so yes, my life is shaped by struggle, by a passion that i developed for human rights, for equality, for women's rights and this is my natural home.
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working in socialjustice movements. do you feel yourself you are a radical almost to the point of being a revolutionary? revolution is something i was invovled in during my 20s, but i see myself as a practical, pragmatic champion of human rights and social justice and that is what oxfam is, it is a perfect home for me. it's interesting that you say that, because to many people and other things and they can be sold on to give you funds for your aid and humanitarian work. but charity perhaps isn't often associated with struggle, with radicalism, is it an easy marriage? it is, because behind that word charity is a very radical idea that humanity is one and that injustice
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must be challenged and fought. we trace our roots to very radical quakers, oxford professors who challenged winston churchill, the great prime minister, on the war that was going on and wanted to take food aid across to the people who are starving on the hitler side and they challenged and we have been challenging since. challenge power. interesting, because in recent times you have appeared to rail against the notion of charity given by the rich to the poor, you said this not so long ago, "we don't think charity is the way to solve these problems, you are not going to lift everybody out of poverty through the kindness of wealthy people."
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is charity outmoded to a certain extent? no, charity is never outmoded. the spirit of solidarity, kindness and sharing is what drives what we do. but what i was saying is that oxfam tackles the root causes of poverty and that lies in powerlessness. so we challenge political leaders, economic leaders, business leaders to do justice for the poor, not to give them handouts, but to do justice for the poor. your version ofjustice sometimes treads into very controversial political territory. if i look at some of the campaigns that you and oxfam have run, you've run campaigns forfair taxation, you have run campaigns on the minimum wage, you know, these in the british political context have certain political connotations which, it has to be said at times have got oxfam into trouble. for example, in december 2014,
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the charity commission decided that some of oxfam's tweeting had actually carried a political bias. yes, sometimes we are dragged, by authorities, told that we are crossing a line. but we are political, with a small p, not partisan. because we tackle where powerlessness starts and where power is abused. we tackle governments and we tackle companies. among the examples you gave, you should have mentioned that we faced off pharmaceutical companies to bring down the price of antiretrovirals to save the lives of millions of people who are dying. so this needs a challenge and we challenge. i am tempted to ask you if that is the perception that you bring to your work, why not actually be a politician? because in the end, sitting as you do at the end of oxfam international, you can have a powerful lobbying voice but you cannot pull
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the levers of power, whereas if you chose a political career, and goodness knows back home in uganda, there are many who would think that you have a very strong chance of political success, if you did, you could pull the levers of power yourself. let me tell you something, political leaders can only be as good as the people, the citizens are active. it is so important that we raise the voice of citizens, that we support citizens to hold their leaders accountable and to hold business accountable for good practice. so what i am doing now, today, is leading a global organisation that fuels, that powers movements on the grounds of citizens to push their governments to be just and to deliver to them. let's just focus on what you have said about your role, which is very much about political messages, about campaigning, about activism.
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yeah... but what you didn't say is that it is also about delivering very real and urgent humanitarian assistance on the ground. i wonder whether you sometimes worry that the money you spend as oxfam on the campaigning, the lobbying, the powerful political messages, that money is being taken, in essence, from the humanitarian funds that you have to help people in yemen, in bangladesh myanmar, all sorts of different urgent pressing crises today, that is a hugely difficult moral decision to take, isn't it? not really. it is not a difficult decision. because, like i said, take the case of conflict. conflict happens and we rush there and we save lives because we want to save lives. but we know that the solution to a conflict is to find a peaceful solution to the issues that are driving the conflict, so we must tackle the root causes as well.
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if you take the example of yemen now, it is the worst humanitarian disaster in the world today, seven million people on the verge of starvation. there's a cholera outbreak that has never happened to that scale. 700,000 suffering from cholera. we are there with water sanitation and food and everything that we can. but we also must speak up, we must campaign and push those governments to fight for a political solution of peace in yemen. we challenge the british government that is on the one hand giving aid, they say £138 million — the second—biggest donor, but which is also selling arms to saudi arabia which arms are being used to kill yemenis. so we speak forcefully and challenging the british government on that.
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stop selling arms and call for peace. there are many others delivering that message on arms sales to saudi arabia, not least the opposition parties in westminster parliament and many other political lobbying groups, my question is that why does 0xfam need to do that? given that you have the facility and the manpower and the know—how to actually use every pound that is given to you to help people on the ground, is it right that you spend some of that money on political campaigning that others would do in your place? absolutely. first of all because we come with the legitimacy and credibility to speak on those issues. we are on the ground. before i came here i was having a meeting with some of the people who are on the ground in bangladesh with the rohingya, inside the country and i know the picture, i know what is going on. in many spaces 0xfam is invited there to speak because we bring the voice, an authentic voice from where the problems are.
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so if i can share with you, this year i went to a roundtable at the united nations with the secretary general, with prime ministers, i was coming right out of nigeria where there is famine in that rich country. and i could talk about the creeping famines across south sudan, nigeria, somalia and yemen because i have been to those countries. that is because 0xfam is one of the very biggest and most respected of the international aid, humanitarian organisations. i wonder if there is time for a rethink... what we spend on our campaigning is like 10% of our total budget, what we spend on humanitarian crisis is almost half of our budget. but you, in the end, are one of the big fish, one of the multinationals in this world, maybe it is time for a rethink. maybe it is time for you to accept, that your day, if not done, perhaps not the future?
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because your own reporting on this, for example a report from 2015, titled turning the humanitarian system on its head, emphasised the need to get much more local. that localism was the best way of delivering real support to communities on the ground. absolutely. in fact, we are committed. 0xfam has committed that by 2020 we will be channelling 30% of the money we get for humanitarian crisis through local actors because they are the first responders, they know the context, they can deliver better. so we are out there, training our local partners to take more and more responsibility for preparedness and for response when it is needed. a powerful sentence from that 2015 report, "simply put", the report said, "we are not saving as many lives as we could".
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is that still true today? of course we would like to save all lives. we always struggle at 0xfam and always striving for higher and higher impact. when you say that, that talks to really our dna. we are impatient for a world where there is no poverty and suffering. the implication then was that your systems and your approach wasn't quite right? of course, we are looking for improvements and in the last five years i have headed 0xfam, after we reformed our humanitarian system to make it more effective and efficient at the truth is, the humanitarian crisis around the world. the speed at which and the frequency and intensity of disasters, the protractedness of conflicts, we cannot meet the need. we really must find solutions to prevent, we must do more preventative work. and is one way that you can be more quicker on the ground, more flexible, moving
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the international hq to nairobi to place it in the global south? yes, that is part of the change that is making us more rooted in the work that we do. itjust can't be right that we save lives and we solve problems of poverty from 4000 miles away, stephen, by locating... what, you mean there's something sort of neocolonialists about the attitude that you see in some of the western—based international aid organisations? well, i can say that there is a danger of becoming less and less relevant if organisations that were born in the north and became global continue to make the decisions to do their work from the north. we are moving our headquarters — not 0xfam great britain
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but the 0xfam international part, that brings the family of 20 0xfams together — to the south so that we are rooted there, so that we speak with the legitimacy from where the struggles are. have you been stung by the degree to which certain african leaders — and i am thinking of paul kagame, the president of rwanda, but also, actually interestingly, your host now, the president of kenya, uhuru kenyatta — they have expressed openly their doubts that international aid is really doing an effective job helping the poorer african nations. just to quote uhuru kenyatta, he tweeted this, he said, "dependence on giving which only appears to be charitable must end. foreign aid, which so often carries terms and conditions that preclude progress, is not an acceptable basis for a prosperity and freedom. it is time to give it up." there are two things there — one, the big picture. development financing, aid is only a small part of it. today, the developing countries, the domestic investments, together with government revenues, is 7.5 times more than the total externalflows, which include aid,
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foreign direct investment, remittances, loans, all that, so domestic revenues are very important and they are growing and it is important though to understand that aid, even though it is one part, has a very important part to play. take the 47 fragile countries — 47 of them, fragile, poor countries — for those, aid is the largest aid flow externally. they need that aid but increasingly... but what about those economists who say that aid given to those very poorest countries, often props up governments whose record on governance and striving for economic efficiency and delivering real economic benefits to their people is horrible and that aid sustains them. there is a point in what you say because aid should be used for purposes of strengthening
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the institutions of government and strengthening the capacity of citizens to hold governments accountable. so the purpose of aid is important, that it is channelled to the poorest who are not reached by markets, who are not reached by private capital, that it is used to strengthen tax collections so that countries get on their feet and raise enough resources, that it is used to support the strengthening of civil society voices to hold governments accountable. we have to use aid for those purposes, for it to deliver the autonomy, the financial autonomy, that governments want. there is one specific thing i want to put to you which has come out in recent days as a result, bizarrely, of a scandal in the united states concerning harvey weinstein, and allegations of very serious sexual abuse. it has since transpired that a lot of female workers in the aid and development business have,
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it seems, experienced abuse themselves from other members of staff, male members of staff, over the years, and including staff at 0xfam. it seems you have had, in the last year, a very significant rise in the number of allegations made against your own male staff. i'm tempted to ask, with a degree of surprise, what on earth is going on that seems to make this sort of abuse systemic even in the humanitarian aid business? you know, that is a matter that's very close to my heart, stephen. throughout my career, i have been working to defend women's rights. it's true, 0xfam should be doing more to protect women who work for 0xfam. it can't be right that anyone... yourformer director in nigeria, going back to 2010, made allegations
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of abuse against another senior member of oxfam staff. she said those allegations were never addressed and, not long afterwards, she was fired. it does seem there is a problem, even in your own organisation. well, as i said, we should be doing better. we should be doing better but let me be clear that, one, a norm has changed in the world — american women have stood up and have raised the question about safety for women in the workplace. we've been working at it for a long time. we're not where we should be but we have something in place that has been working and some of this reporting, stephen, is a result of the transparency that we put in place, starting five years ago, when we boosted our system and started a system of reporting transparently the cases. i want to end by bringing you back to uganda, which is where we begin, when we talked about the roots
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of your commitment to the struggle. you, for 11 years, were a ugandan parliamentarian working quite closely with president museveni. he is now seeking constitutional change which would allow him to run for another presidential term, even though, according to the current constitution, he would be too old in 2021 to run again, and you have chosen to speak out against any change in the constitution, why? well, first of all, i must correct you that i wasn't working closely with him as a parliamentarian. i was a critical parliamentarian... well, you were at the beginning because, if i may say so, you've had a long personal relationship with him... sure. you were close to him and indeed so was your husband many years. that is true.
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we were in the revolution against dictatorship together but, increasingly, as i became a member of parliament, i disagreed and eventually broke away. why i am racing my voice now on this issue is that this issue of changing the constitution in order to extend the possibility of a president who has been in power 35 years, to stay longer... and we should remind people he'll be 77 at the next election. it is not a partisan issue. this is a citizens issue. this is where 0xfam's voice i think is important, to energise citizens to speak up in defence of their constitution. we made this constitution — i was one of the constitution makers — it was the most consultative, participatory way and we put in these checks in the constitution so that presidents do not use incumbency to entrench themselves in power. now, he did remove one constitutional check of time limits and now he wants to remove the one in age limits so it is important that i speak so that ugandans also rise and speak and defend their constitution. but you speak as the head of oxfam international but the truth is, you do have a major vested
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interest because your husband happens to be the leading political opponent, who has long fought president museveni and has sought to beat him in various presidential elections so, you know, for you, this is deeply personal. are you sure you should be mixing the professional and the personal in the way that you have chosen to? look, i am a citizen of my country. i cannot be credible in my own country when i do not speak on an issue that is so important for the future of our young people, for our economy. i have to make my statement and then leave it for ugandans to go ahead and fight it out. i do not express myself on the side of the opposition or on the side of the government, as i said. this is a strictly citizen issue and people across both sides are speaking in the same way... there are members would like you to go back and be the main
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opposition candidate in the 2021 election. are you considering doing that? look, it would be an honour to be asked to lead my country but, right now, i am enjoying an even bigger honour to support the voices of citizens around the world, to stand up forjustice, economicjustice. 2021 is a little while away. are you telling me that you are categorically ruling it out or is it a possibility? there are many people in your country who would like clear answer to this. look, as i said, it would be an honour to be asked to lead my country but right now, i'm happy to tell you that i have just signed my second contract at 0xfam, to serve my organisation for the next five years so my plans... i'm not looking at the ugandan
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context, i'm looking at serving 0xfam right now. we will have to end there. winnie byanyima thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you so much. enjoyed it. hello. this is the point where this week's weather begins to get considerably more dramatic. and this is the driver of the change, this curl of cloud on the satellite picture, a deep area of low pressure which has been named by the met office, storm caroline. nothing will happen much on wednesday morning. feeding in a lot of cloud and some mild air.
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temperatures as we start the day, eight, nine, ten across the south—west. expect cloud. the odd patchy rain and drizzle that the 11 degrees for plymouth. cardiff, similar. across west wales, starting to turn quite breezy by this stage. the wind picking up in northern ireland and this area of wet weather will slide in from the west. rain settling in across western scotland. persistent rain in the high ground. eastern scotland, starting the day dry. and it will be eastern areas that will have the best chance brightness through the day. further west, a lot of cloud and strengthening south—westerly winds. gales in exposed spots in the west in the afternoon. northern ireland and western scotland in particular, outbreaks of rain. a mild day wherever you are. that will not last. wednesday night, the wind is strengthening in the west. outbreaks of rain pushing in from the west as well,
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as storm caroline swings across the north of the british isles. notice many isobars tight together. strong winds with us for thursday. across scotland, winds of 80 miles per hour, perhaps even stronger. very strong winds elsewhere as well. rain clearing away from the south—east. then brighter skies. and then some showers, which will begin to turn wintry over high ground in the north. that's because things will be turning colder. as we move out of thursday into friday, this is a really wintry looking weather chart. the winds are whistling down from the arctic bringing cold air which will plunge across the country. there will be some dry weather and sunshine at times. there will also be showers. most of the showers will be snow showers. they could crop up just about anywhere. most likely in the west, but also in the far north. and that snow will be right down to low levels.
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when you add on the strength of the wind, it will feel sub—zero across many parts of the country. so, wet and windy weather with storm caroline. then turning colder. and then we will see some snow showers and some ice. this is newsday on the bbc. i'm rico hizon in singapore. the headlines: russia is banned from next year's winter olympics in south korea after allegations of state—sponsored doping. the terrorist threat in britain. an official report asks whether the manchester bombing could have been prevented. also in the programme: president trump tells israeli and arab leaders he plans to move america's embassy in israel tojerusalem. decades after japan's kamikaze pilots attacked warships in the pacific, we hearfrom a rare survivor of those suicidal missions. live from our studios
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