bannon is quoted in a new book describing a meeting during the election campaign, between mr trump's son donald junior and a group of russians, as treasonous and unpatriotic. surging winds across western europe have left thousands of homes without power and brought chaos to travellers and communities on the coast. in switzerland a train was blown off its tracks — injuring eight people. dutch authorities have, for the first time, shut all major sea barriers. iran has accused the us of meddling in its domestic affairs — a response to president trump's backing for anti—government protests. iran's ambassador to the un said donald trump had incited unrest with what he called absurd tweets. the head of iran's revolutionary guards has said the unrest is now over. now on bbc news it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur.

the beginning of the year is a time for reflecting on the past and plotting a betterfuture. in britain, the focus is on where brexit is taking the nation. how will leaving the eu will affect the uk's sense of itself and its international standing? my guest is a distinguished political veteran, lord david owen, a former labour foreign secretary who tried and failed to change the face of british politics by launching a new party on the centre—left. does the uk currently have a clue where it is going? lord owen, welcome to hardtalk.

nice to be here. let's begin with brexit. 2018 must be the year a deal is done. an agreement reached between britain and the eu 27 on the shape of brexit. if it is not done this year, there will be no time to ratify it before 2019. do you believe a deal will be done? it can be done and i think it will be done. i am more optimistic now that we have a transition period which many people called for and i think it is essential. alighted immediately, you have, upon the transition period. doesn't the idea of one mean that what we are looking at is a total fudge? in essence, the british government has agreed will still play by the eu's rules for two or three years, possibly more, after march 2019. by training i am a doctor of medicine. i am an evolutionist and when you look at the evidence, people needed more time to adjust.

if we had planned properly for it, if there had been a government evaluation of what leaving the eu meant done by david cameron's government and we had gotten plans in place, then it could have been done much quicker. once it was clear that the cupboard was completely bare and cameron would not even remain as prime minister, it was bound to take more time. i don't think we should expect to be anything other than basically out by december 2020. we will be out of the eu in march...in 2019 and completely from the arrangement. we will still be europeans. we will be traders in europe as we have been for centuries. the emphasis of our exporting effort will shift but that has already been shifting.

we have been moving away from europe and towards foreign markets for the last 20 years. we will talk about trade and the wider diplomatic field in which britain will play. only a united country will get a good dealfrom the eu." it is quite transparently obvious that the uk is not united. even the cabinet is not united over what represents a good dealfor britain. i think they are coming to a better position. it would be better if they were more united at various stages. this issue of europe has been splitting political parties ever since i first became a candidate for the labour party in 1962 when this issue was raised.

we have only had two referendums, quite exceptional, and that is because the labour party was split, massively, in 1975 and had a referendum and the conservative party was split massively and we have this recent referendum. mps show by the day how difficult it is for them to face reality. they voted for a referendum and put it through. you abdicate from the decision. you passed that over to the people of the country. they can get involved in negotiation strategy and some elements but even there you are constrained. it is an international negotiation between 27 countries and ourselves. it is not even really a negotiation. they will come forward with a framework and we have to agree. the referendum clearly was advisory, that was the nature of it. secondly, it is a snapshot of a moment. the argument today from many people in the conservative party

who are pro—remain and the labour party who are pro—remain as well as independent observers, is a feeling that if the public opinion would fundamentally shift during the course of 2018 then there would be legitimate grounds for a second vote. do you accept that? i don't believe there would be. i must say that when a government sent out a message, paid for by the taxpayer, to every individual and says this is your decision and we will abide by it, i think that the country must abide by it. as a democrat, doesn't worry you that yougov which has been tracking opinion ever since the referendum, has found recently a consistent feeling among the british public who say they would prefer britain to remain and not leave. there are many different polls on that but i am not going into them. i don't enter into the argument about the referendum. that decision has been taken by the people. there is a legitimate argument about how we negotiate

and what position we adopt but the decision is taken. it's the result of a long change. this has been dividing this country since 1962. a former labour party leader warned about a federal europe and i supported him. it's not so much about trade issues as it is the fundamental ones that this country should be a self—governing country. talking constitutionalism. you sit in the house of lords. the eu withdrawal bill is going through the commons and it looks as if theresa may has cobbled together a legislative deal which is acceptable to a majority in the commons. it will go to the lords and there is a strong possibility that there is not a majority in the house of lords and the tory party is said to be considering a slew of pro—brexit peers to ensure a majority in the lords. how would you feel about that? it has no legitimacy at all to block a referendum.

the house of lords. it is the house of commons who sent it to the upper house. we are an advisory chamber who can make sensible changes on legal issues and there are complicated legal questions about this bill which are inevitable. but they should be weighed and considered. at the end of the day, the house of commons has to determine the issue. they have to be very aware, more than they are at the moment, of the will of the people. this issue has been with us for a very long time. in 1975 there was a decisive vote and it was accepted. basically for four years, then people came back to it. this time i think it has surprised the people who are passionate. i supported europe for many years. you've made a complete u—turn.

and i did not make a u—turn. i did not even change my position. i oppose the eurozone. i don't believe you can run a currency from 27 countries. i did not believe in a federal europe and never did. as foreign secretary i put to cabinet a paper that was designed to show you could be in europe without it becoming a federal europe. now with the french president, president macron, very determined for a federal europe, good luck to him. if he and germany put their acts together, it is possible to see at least the eurozone countries, maybe a reduced number, effectively being a united states of europe and we will have good relations with them. talking about how that will work, you wrote a book about the foreign policy after brexit. i wrote it with someone 25 years younger than me who voted remain and i should think this shows you can bridge the gap. let's unpicked the thoughts behind the book.

you said... this is not in the book but something you said before the referendum itself that stuck in my mind. "we will rediscover the skills of blue water diplomacy and rise to the challenge of global markets. it would be the spark we need to re—energise britain. a challenge and an opportunity." it's stirring stuff. what on earth is this blue water diplomacy you speak of? we did it before, we used to have a worldwide navy. this is not the times of lord palmerston any longer... of course not. it's not gunboat diplomacy it is a modest navy but is capable. in my view, i don't see them playing up and down the south china sea taking on china but i do think we have wanted and needed for the un a naval rapid reaction force for many years and i think this could be a lead role for britain but with commonwealth partners. but not to begin with this notion of britain rising to the challenge

of global markets with a focus on the military because it seems much more important to focus on trade. i agree. we have a history of merchant trade. we have gone and opened markets in the past. you make it sound like a rudyard kipling novel. the reality is quite different. perhaps your viewers don't realise that i was in business. i have never taken a penny—piece from the government. when i left the house of commons, i left it. i was in business in the uk in textiles. in russia with steel and oil, and in america with pharmaceutical industries. i am not talking completely with no knowledge of what it takes to export. and a fair point. but i wonder if you are reading what those outside britain looking

in are saying — especially key trading partners which the british government says they will reach out to extract deals with. this is what they say. china, beijing's state—run global times... when philip hammond went there just before christmas, they said that "uncertainty over the future position of the uk in global trade in financial markets will inevitably have affected the investment and cooperation plans of chinese companies in the uk." india, the high commissioner, no less of india in the uk has said that britain will have to accept higher levels of immigration from india if it is to have any hope of signing a free—trade deal with india after brexit. this is the reality. if they are skilled people coming in to filljobs in high—quality areas of expertise, india does have great knowledge in terms of computers and modern science, we should welcome them. but you know that most people...

i wouldn't presume to know what they really felt, but many people it seems who voted brexit, voted on the grounds that it would reduce immigration, period. what they did not want was unlimited immigration from 27 eu countries that they had no capacity to limit or control. we will have to have immigration laws now answerable to parliament but this is not a closed door. we are not closing ourselves to people who can help our economy or help our national health service, help science. and also to students. we need to be very much aware of the balance and immigration has provided great strengths for this country. and i don't know of any serious brexiteer who believes we will suddenly stop all immigration. we need to moderate it. it grew out of control, particularly where it was concentrated in parts of the country where there was not enough in the health service nor education. and if you could address my point about china?

in the word of a china expert here in london he says the britain has diminished and isolated itself in the eyes of the chinese as a result of brexit. i don't agree with that. i know it is sometimes said by these experts but i have watched little articles about it. just recently i think in the telegraph, a small company in hastings deciding to move from 90% european trade to move into china. they took an area of high electronic lighting equipment and they now sell into chain hotels and do extremely well in china. but we could have done that in the eu. germany's trade relationship with china outstripped sales because they do very good exporting stuff. i don't see how brexit will improve that. why do you take on yourself to say we are not? what do you know of this issue? i'm just saying, relative to germany...

why do we spend our whole time doing ourselves down? why do we have, day after day, newspaper stories aimed at demoralising, aimed at sharpening against it? who are these people, who can't take defeat in a referendum, who spend their whole time on this issue? there is a positive story. we are a great country still. we have a great deal of courage, enterprise, energy in our young people. i know a lot of them who would wish to stay. but what i would like to say about those younger people — they are much more, in my view, turning their hand to the challenge in front of us. what would you call the imf and the cbi, and the bank of england — are these all part of this sort of doom—mongering conspiracy? all three of the people you have mentioned... well, they are institutions. they were prophets of doom before the referendum result. those exact predictions have not been fulfilled. and we're joint—bottom of the g7 in growth league. we've had a devaluation

in part as a result of brexit, but in part, in my view, because we were at an unrealistic exchange rate. our exporters are moving up. i don't really understand why one should spend our whole time questioning the veryjudgement of the british people who decided that they wanted to leave the eu. is that the role of the elite? is this the role of some mps who were not able to win? or are we prepared to live with a result, and make a success of it? and i really do believe this requires... i think it is important that the future be considered very carefully, notjust from the point of view of the politics of brexit, but from what those outside the uk are actually saying and thinking about britain's future relationship with their own countries. to finish... what i would say is no doubt it's a challenge, and i don't deny it's a challenge. but what do you think the americans are going to make of a uk, post—brexit? just to quote you a couple of important voices, senior democrat senator ben cardin said recently germany —

post—britain leaving the eu, germany will become even more dominant in the eu. and he's looking to the eu first, not to an independent uk. well, germany is already the dominant partner in the eu, it's the strongest country. but i believe that britain will become a very important, major contributor to nato, which will be welcomed by many americans. after all, it wasn't just president trump, it was president obama who told us we were freeloading, we, in europe, on nato. you speak with a perspective full of fascinating experience. a former labour party foreign secretary, who decided to leave labour, you found it too left—wing, too socialist. you wanted to create a new centre—ground political movement, the social democratic party, for a while. it was extraordinary popular, but, ultimately, it was a failed attempt to break the mould of british politics. here we sit today with a really avowedly socialist, leftist labour leader, jeremy corbyn,

who says that he now represents the new centre ground in british politics. he says he is on the cusp of a historic victory for socialism and the left in the united kingdom. first of all, do you think that is true? i don't think we can tell. i think that labour got many votes, many, many votes, in the north of england, from people who wanted to leave the european union. and i think that labour should focus itself on getting a good result, leaving the european union. and i think all of us should. it seems to be labour's policy is to say, yes, we are going to leave, we want to leave. but we want to stay, if possible, inside the customs union, maybe inside the single market, as well. and if that isn't possible, we want the closest relationship possible, and the softest brexit possible. well, i want the closest relations possible, but it's not possible to have control over the immigration from eu countries into this country and stay in the single market and in the customs union. this has been made crystal—apparent.

and you've only got to see what president macron onlyjust recently criticised the eu for giving as much to david cameron in his deal, he called it blackmail. now, he definitely wouldn't give us a better deal than was offered to david cameron, and that wasn't sufficient. so i think... you have couched your view of corbyn in terms of brexit, and it is very important. but let's just leave brexit aside for a moment. well, let me — i didn't answer your question on corbyn, and i will answer your question on corbyn. i think that he's got quite a lot running for himself and his party, and good luck to him. i think it's a very remarkable achievement... sorry to interrupt, it is rude of me. but if you were in labour today, a seniorfigure in the labour party, would you feel able to serve underjeremy corbyn, or would you walk away? i gave money to the labour party at the last election. i am a supporter, but not a member. i am not a member because i don't agree with quite a lot of its economic policy.

but i do think that they have shown greater strength. i personally think labour is more right than not on the health service, and i believe this government has literally destroyed the health service in england — fortunately not yet in scotland, wales, or in northern ireland. so i am still a social democrat. i've never made any secret of this. i've never been a tory, and i will never be a tory. but on this issue at the moment, let me focus. i do believe the issue for this country over 2018 — and i agree with you, this is the moment where the toughest decisions are going to be taken over brexit — that we should rally as a country, we should spend our time on getting the best deal, that party politics should slip away into its normal place, and not elevate. there'll be time of an election. it might be 2019, it might be 2020, it might even go to 2021. by that time, labour has the opportunity to present itself even more successfully than it did at the last election, which it didn't win.

i hope they will. i am not one who is going to spend my whole time, telling you that mr corbyn will never be prime minister. i think he might well be. well, with respect, i did look at your past prognoses ofjeremy corbyn. you said you didn't even think he would lead labour into the last election. you said he is a decent person, but he will have to stand down before the last election, which you said before that election. i did, but i also say don't create a new party. the sdp was a great attempt. it's a truth thatjeremy corbyn has shown more sensitivity to his critics from the right than michael foot ever showed in 1981. but i associate you so much with the fight within labour against so—called militant and left—leaning groups within the party in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s. you walked away, you were described as a traitor by so many in the labour party. and now, corbyn, who has an agenda of nationalisation, of out—and—out socialism,

because he is very proud to be a socialist — you are saying i can sign up to that, i can even give money to it. well, i think the last act of the labour government under gordon brown, which was a sensible one, was in fact to nationalise part of the railways, when it had collapsed. that is the second david owen u—turn. you don't like the phrase, but you've changed position on europe, from being pro being in the eu to being very much for being out of it. and in terms of socialism, and a pure left—wing ideology, you rebelled against it, and now you are for it. i neverjoined the liberal party. i stayed a social democrat all this time. i told you, i don't think currently the labour party is a social democratic party. that's why i have notjoined it. but i am of the left. i am a passionate believer in the national health service. i believe that the creation of that in 19118 was a great thing. he rejoiced in the fact that he didn't have

to ask his patients to pay. so, on social policy, i've always been on the left. but i was, when i was leader of the sdp, and even before — i believe that we did have to change trade union laws. i believe that we did have to change the economy. and above all, i wanted strong defence. all of those were challenged by michael foot in 1981 to 1983. and it took ‘81 — from the time we left till 1997 before labour won. corbyn is getting closer to it, and as i said to you, he's attracted young people. he's got an increased membership. you can't take this away from him. if you had your time over again, would you now think differently about leaving the labour party? would you have stayed in? well, you've studied these things. you know perfectly well i was totally opposed to the new sdp linking up with the liberal party within weeks and months ofjoining. i thought that was a great mistake. we were a new party and we should have stood on oui’ own ground. and i did not expect, when ijoined the sdp and helped to make it a success,

that i would spend a lot of time arguing, are you or are you not a liberal? i was not a liberal. i remain a social democrat, and that means i have to give the labour party my help where i can, my criticism where i think it'sjust. but overall, i'm on the left in british politics, and i have never shifted that position. we have to end there, but thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. storm eleanor brought some damage, disruption to ireland and the uk. it has continued to move away in towards the baltic states, as you can see here,

beginning to weaken now. but we're looking out to the west, to this next area of low pressure, which is showing signs of deepening, strengthening all the while as it's reaching our shores, and could bring us a spell of gales or severe gales during the course of this afternoon. initially, it's going to send a weather front out ahead of it. some of the rain will be fairly heavy, quite persistent during the overnight period and to start this morning. but further north and east, a dry, chilly start to the day, with a little bit of frost and fog potentially in central and northern scotland. so, for today, there's going to be that early—morning rain, and then into the afternoon, those winds are going to pick up, particularly across the south. so we start off on a very wet note this morning in the south—east, east anglia, pushing in towards east midlands and northern england. those winds behind the rain band begin to pick up, reaching gale—force around in the south—west, particularly around coastal areas and in towards wales. the rain will be persistent, fairly heavy across northern england, pushing in towards central, southern scotland and into northern ireland.

and with a little bit of elevation, with that cold air around, we could be looking at some snow over the higher ground here. but a dry, cold start for much of northern scotland, with a bit of mist and fog around too. a few showers across the northern isles, mind you. that rain band will continue to move northwards and then grind to a halt in the far north of england, central and southern scotland, and northern ireland. behind it, though, for much of england and wales, a brighter afternoon, some sunshine, showers. but those gusty winds touching 60mph, maybe even more in exposure across wales, the south—west, and into the south—east. a very mild 12—13 degrees here, a little bit cooler further north. that area of low pressure clears away, and on friday, we're looking at another feature running in off the atlantic. it's going to bring another spell of wet and fairly windy weather to our shores. a little bit of snow to start across some of the northern hills first thing on friday, and then those winds picking up. again, initially south—west england, wales, then across the south coast and in towards the south—east. some sunshine around too. much more cold air begins to push into scotland with an increasing chance of wintry showers.

that cold air down from the arctic spreads right across the uk for the weekend, so it's going to feel distinctly cold. much, much colder out on that strong north—north—east wind. it's going to feel bitterly cold, in fact. there will be some sunshine around. som wintry showers, as well, across eastern areas, and temperatures 6—7 degrees at best. the winds maybe a bit lighter across the board on sunday. still quite breezy across the south—east, but it's going to feel even colder, despite there being plenty of sunshine. this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top story... a deadly winter storm batters northern europe — cutting power and causing widespread travel chaos. president trump unleashes a tirade against his former chief strategist steve bannon, for accusing donald trump jr of treason. investigators raise the seaplane which crashed near sydney on new year — we'll have the latest from the scene. revenue stream.

music giant spotify cues up a new york stock market listing — that could see it valued at 20 billion dollars. also in business briefing, the hard economic realities behind the unrest in iran — i'll be speaking an iranian economist.