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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  February 8, 2018 12:30am-1:01am GMT

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i'm sharanjit leyl with bbc world news. our top story: north korea is preparing for a military parade in pyongyang. it comes a day before the opening ceremony of the winter olympics — dubbed by south korea's president as the "peace olympics" — is set to take place. the leaders of the republican and democratic parties in the us senate have reached an agreement on a budget deal. if passed by the house, it would increase government spending by billions of dollars. and remember this video on bbc.com? well, robert kelly was in the middle of a live interview when his children burst into the room. well, professor kelly is in london for the broadcast tv awards, and guess what? he's just won the best tv moment of the year. congratulations to him. that's all from me now. stay with bbc world news. and now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. with me zainab badawi, in nairobi.
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when it comes to politics, kenya has a history of violent and disputed elections. i'm at the home of the veteran opposition leader, raila odinga, for this exclusive interview. he's gone and had himself sworn in as the ‘people‘s president', in an act which the government says amounts to high treason. is he acting irresponsibly, illegally and stoking tensions? raila odinga, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, zainab. be honest with me, do you really believe you are president of kenya?
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don't i look presidential? you are wearing a smart suit. i really do believe i am the president. if you listen to what people are saying, for example, fm radio station, which obviously supports the government, they say things like your so—called swearing in ceremony is meaningless, where is raila odinga's state house, this was a farewell party for you. that is what kenyans are saying. there are a few kenyans who say that. of course, it's just a joke they are making. they know the occasion was a very serious occasion. it was aimed at ending the circus of elections last year, so that we can then move forward. you do notjust have to be in the state house as a president.
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as a people's president, we have a very important agenda that we want to put forward in order to bring this country back on track. there is no constitutional basis, raila odinga, for what you have done, declaring yourself people's president, saying you want to set up a parallel government. president uhuru kenyatta is very, very angry with you. his deputy, william ruto, has described your swearing—in as a comedy and a drama. he says, "those hell—bent on continuing to create drama should know that they are on their own." you are on your own. zainab, i think they are a comedy. what we did is based on the constitution. we made the constitution and ensure that when kenyans reach institutions like this, they have the power. article 1 of our constitution rests sovereignty in the people.
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—— vests. the people of kenya have sovereignty and can exercise it directly or donate it to their elected representatives. if that were the case and you had as much support as you claim you have, why do three of your four coalition partners in nasa — nothing to do with space — it's the national super alliance, the opposition grouping that you head, three of the four stayed away, including kalonzo, your running mate. they don't approve of what you're doing. you're on your own. they have explained. they did not have to take an oath. kalonzo says that he will take an oath at a later date. but he didn't turn up. he did not turn up and he explained why he did not turn up. i don't want to speak for him. but what i'm saying is that
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their not being there did not reduce the significance or the importance of the occasion. they fully stand behind it and they support it. is that the case? because when you talk to people in kenya, informed opinion suggests that they didn't support you because they are relatively young, you are in your early 70s now, they think we have a politicalfuture and they do not want to be involved in this act that the government has described as an act of high treason. zainab, they know very clearly that if we do not solve the dispute over the 2017 elections, there will be no 2022 elections, because if you get away with stealing and rigging the way they did the last time, there is no guarantee that 2022 will be different. what we're to do is bring an end to electoral fraud,
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imposing what you call and electoral coup on the people, basically a coup d'etat. when people voted one way and the government, because they have taken the electoral body hostage, they declare a different result and then they impose themselves on the people. i'lljust remind everybody that of course there were two elections last year. one on august eight, that result was declared null and void by the supreme court because you challenged it and said there was fraud and the government, president uhuru kenyatta, accepted that reluctantly. but he went ahead with it. october 26 there was a second election, which you decided not to run in. and then that went ahead and president uhuru kenyatta won that election. the result was upheld by the international community, former south african president thabo mbeki for the african union said the result is good.
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the european union, the united states, the entire world accepted the validity of that election result in october. zainab, the supreme court, in making a ruling, said there were illegalities and irregularities, that therefore made the elections of august anulled. they ordered that the commission should conduct elections in accordance with the law and constitution. that's the case, that's the case... so we asked the commission to sit down and address the illegalities and irregularities before a new election was held, so that we do not repeat what had happened on august 8. but clearly, if you had challenged the validity of that election in august and the supreme court had said let's rerun,
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if you were unhappy with the result, challenge it again in the court. what would you do in my situation? when the chairman of the electoral commission himself, eight days before the october elections, on live television says that he is unprepared, he is not ready. the commission cannot conduct a free and fair elections on 26 october. one of commissioners resigned, citing illegalities, pressure, saying that four of the seven commissioners take instructions from the state. so you do not believe the reforms were done, and that is why you did not stand. so now, based on the result of the august 8 election, you say you are the people's president. you went to the supreme court and said you do not agree with that election at all and now you are saying to us actually, i won that election. it sounds very contradictory,
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like you are just flip—flopping. no, no. it's not contradictory. what the supreme court nullified was the fraudulent declaration by the commission that uhuru kenyatta had won the election, they did not nullify the elections generally. because you remember during the hearing, i petitioned the court to command the commission to open a server for verification. the commission refused contemptuously to comply with that order. so contempt of court. what you have done is you have seized an opportunity to access the server and produces the authentic results of august 8. and you say that gave you 8.04 million votes and uhuru kenyatta got 7.75 million votes in that august election. all right, let's look
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at your people's president claim. the international community has said that this has no validity. moussa faki, the chair of the african union commission, has criticised your so—called swearing—in and says he rejects all action that undermines the constitution and the rule of law. the us state department has said that what you did was not correct. the american ambassador here in nairobi has also criticised your actions. nobody approves of what you're doing. well, the oau is seen in a very bad light on the continent. the african union. because the african union has been defending despots and dictators. in the past, they used to come in military uniform, military coups. these days, they carry electoral coup d'etats and impose themselves on power.
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so the african union, you refute what they say. how about the american ambassador? you say you want him recalled because you aren't happy with his statement. remember, i told you that eight days before october 26, the commission chairman said he was not ready. yet a day before that repeat elections, the supreme court was not able to get a quorum to hear a petition requesting for a postponement because of lack of proper preparation. the ambassador, two days before, brings the other western diplomats at a press conference to say that they are satisfied with preparations. where do you go from here? you said you are the people's president. you said that we will work
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like a government and appoint ministers, even if we have to run the government in exile. that is what you said on voice of america on january 18. those were your words. what we mean to say, we have said it clearly. we started first by forming assemblies in various regions and we have had, basically, meetings with various assemblies in the coast and central areas and so on, and they have passed resolutions. these resolutions will be taken to the people's convention, that will be held. when? shortly. we will release a timetable shortly. and who is in these assemblies?
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the elections in october were for the national assembly, for governorships and so on. many members of your coalition, nasa, are serving as mps and are serving as governors. they're not part of this parallel assembly and government that you want to set up. they are. what we are doing here is invoking the provisions of article i of our constitution. we are now setting up a people's convention. having then taken oath as the people's president, then this people's convention is going to deliberate on the resolutions that are coming from the regional assemblies on how they want matters to be handled. there are six critical issues coming up here. number one is electoral justice. number two if the independence of thejudiciary. three is police reform.
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the restructuring and strengthening of the revolution. number five is the restructuring of power, and finally, inclusion, ethnic inclusion in government in this country. what are you going to do then? you set up this convention. what will you do? march on state house, the national assembly and say we demand these changes? what is your plan? we won't remove kenyatta... you don't want to remove uhuru kenyatta from the state house? so you accept him as president? do you accept his presidency? no, we do not recognise his presidency. because we say it lacks legitimacy. and he says that you have committed high treason. do you accept you have committed a treasonous act? no. i have not committed treason. we are saying that uhuru kenyatta does not have legitimacy
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because october 26 less than 20% of the voters... you have explained that. do you want a third election? we want another election. when do you want that third election? by august this year. why did your colleague say the state has declared war and we will not relent until justice is achieved? the state has declared war on you? you can see the way the state is acting, it's acting completely contradictory to the constitution. it has actually set aside the constitution. you see, they are not being court orders, they are arresting people, holding people hostage, in spite of the court orders. these are your supporters, around a dozen, just around a dozen or so, including miguna miguna, your lawyer, and so on. but these are people who the government are questioning because they believe they were complicit in a treasonous act. no government would accept a parallel government. but they must act within the law. even if they committed
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any kind of a crime, they are still free until proven guilty through due process. the government has to follow the constitution and produce them before a court of law within 2a hours of your arrest. the government has no authority to close all media houses. they have reopened two of the three, mostly, after a week. not all of them. yeah, well, citizentv is pending. that was illegal. but what happens now, is my point. you say the state has declared war on you. what happens if your supporters don't get what they want? you see, we are envoking article one. our people and our supporters will not relent untiljustice is served. civil disobedience? we will.
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everything is going to be peaceful, but it is going to be a peaceful protest untiljustice is served. a breakaway republic. i mean, you told the financial times in october in western kenya, in nyanza, your stronghold, where your tribe, the luo, are based, you said "the debate about self—determination is gaining currency." that is true, zeinab. today, if you go to a public rally in most parts of the country, people will tell you they want self—determination, number one. people will tell you we don't want to be killed like rats by the police, uh, then, if you talk ill of the president. these are not good signs of a country. these are signs of a country in conflict that need to be resolved. precisely. it needs to be resolved. we all remember what happened
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in 2007 at the elections there. 1,300 people were killed, 600,000, displaced. and there is an accusation against you, i tell you what the mp, moses kuria, said, he said this back injune, you want to set this country on "a final inferno." are you instigating violence, as he suggests? i have at all times resisted in attempts to use violent means to bring about change. in 2007, as you saw, the country was actually aflame. i was one of the people came forward and said, "no, let us sit down and negotiate." i even offered and agreed to take the position of a prime minister and allow the man i defeated in elections to go on with my backing. are you not acting irresponsibly? you have a background of tensions. you have a former chiefjustice,
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willy mutunga, saying on the fourth of february "i keep on having nightmares about the possibility of civil war." so when you throw your "people's president" and " pa rallel assemblies," and so on, are you not fanning the flames of these tensions? we are trying to use peaceful means to bring about the change that we want. the accusation against you by people like uhuru kenyatta is that many people are trying to take ethnicity and tribalism out of kenyan politics, but he says you behave like a tribal king and that you do play the tribal card. is that a valid criticism? that is preposterous. uhuru kenyatta knows that, for example, my political base is nairobi, which is fairly cosmopolitan. where you are sitting is my constituency. but your stronghold, with the luo people,
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who you have a visceral attachment to, and they have a visceral attachment to you, as a former vice president, michael wamalwa has said of you, you are a fairly divisive figure because people who love you, he says, are indulging in raila—mania. and then there is the raila—phobia, your critics. put it this way, i beat uhuru kenyatta on the coast by far. i beat him in the eastern region. i beat him in the north—eastern region. i beat him in the western region. i beat him in the nyanza region. i beat him also in nairobi. he only beat me in the river valley and in his hometown. who is more cosmopolitan? who is more accepted by the people? it is me, not uhuru kenyatta.
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people are now saying where do you go from here? people who care about this issue, like nikki haley, they are calling for a full dialogue between politicians, religious and business leaders and civil society groups, to help create unity. and they add that political conflicts and differences have destabilised the country. why don't you pursue that kind of strategy, and say "let's come together," as uhuru kenyatta said in his inauguration in november, "let us muster the courage to embrace the future and free ourselves from the baggage of past grievances." go down that path. that is the path i suggested. we have been talking about dialogue in order to resolve this impasse, in order to resolve these contentious issues?
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uhuru kenyatta is pretending that there is no contention, that there is no crisis. he wants to talk about his development agenda, what they call the four point agenda. we have more serious issues to talk about before we talk about development. we have the issues of electoral justice, which will not die away. the point is, the people in kenya, one businessman says "we are more concerned about the country progressing and not stagnating because of the presidential election. you know, "we want the country to stabilise." the world bank said the legal and political uncertainty could further undermine business confidence and undermine a robust recovery. you are relatively well—off by kenyan standards, but many people, you know, want to see growth in this country. they do not want to see it held up by this political uncertainty. and that is what you are doing, you are prolonging the uncertainty. we are not prolonging it.
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if it is resolved properly then kenya will move forward. the last four and a half years under uhuru's presidency were wasted years. we gave him the opportunity after the court ruled in 2013 against us. we gave him the opportunity, but it was all wasted. look at the kind of corruption in the country, the wastage in the country, the kind of debt burden that he has imposed on the people. the cost of living here has soared so much most people cannot even afford the basics that they require like maize flour, the stable food of the country. prices are so high. unemployment, 40% of the youth are unemployed in the country. the situation is very bad... and surely all of that needs to be addressed and not have this comedy in drama as vice president william ruto has said of your parallel presidency, the so—called "people's presidency." i put it to you as uhuru kenyatta has said, "in an election, there has to be a winner,
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there has to be a loser," and he says "you are a sore loser." that is really hogwash. how can i be a sore loser when i won in 2007? i left the loser to proceed as president. i lost in 1997 and accepted. in 2002, i accepted the president. in 2013, i accepted the ruling of the supreme court. so you are not a sore loser? i am not a sore loser. i am a gentleman. most people understand that. uhuru kenyatta is a bitter person, a person subject to his emotions, that is why he does not want any serious dialogue in order to resolve what is a very, very serious conflict in this country. raila odinga, thank you so much for coming on hardtalk. thank you so much, zeinab. hello there. for many places, the day ahead will bring a slightly different feel
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to the weather. something just a little bit milder. many starting the day under cold air. but this wedge of mild air in the atlantic beginning to show its hand. this is tied up with a weather system in the atlantic. you can see the cloud here is going to bring some outbreaks of rain as we go on through the day. a split in temperatures in the morning. as much as —5, —6, in the south—east. temperatures generally above freezing for northern ireland and northern scotland. this is 8am. the coldest weather in east anglia and the south—east, but the brightest weather. a lot of sunshine to come. the south—west, wales, northern england, thick clouds, outbreaks of mostly light and patchy rain at this stage. a lot of cloud into southern scotland. but for northern ireland, northern scotland, something more bright. sunny spells returning. a rash of showers to the north—west. because of the slightly milder air, most showers falling as rain rather than anything more wintry.
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now, as we go on through the day, we take this band of cloud and rain further south and east. do you see the deep blue colours? that indicates the rain will turn more heavy for wales and northern england during the afternoon. clouding over in the south—east after the bright start. remaining chilly here. scotland, northern ireland, sunshine and a few showers. temperatures getting up to 7—8 degrees. thursday night, we push this band of at this stage quite heavy rain eastwards. wintry showers. as we get into friday, the air will be turning more cold. temperatures dipping away. seven in cardiff. some rain, sleet, and snow perhaps in the south—east for a time. some wintry showers elsewhere. generally speaking, high pressure with us for the very start of the weekend. a cold and frosty start to saturday.
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another frontal system. perhaps a spell of snow in the north. then some rain. then the second half of the weekend, you guessed it, back in the cold air. things are very much up and down through the coming days. this is the weekend. often it will be windy. rain at times on saturday. something more bright and cold for most on sunday. there could be double—digit temperatures in places. but with some outbreaks of rain, on sunday, it will feel colder, but it should be brighter. this is newsday on the bbc. i'm rico hizon in singapore. the headlines... seen from space. preparations for north korea's massive military parade — just in time for the olympics. as kim jong—un sends his own sister to represent him at the games, japan warns the world not to be taken in by the north's charm offensive. and i'm sharanjit leyl in london. also on the programme: china shows off its latest surveillance fashion accessory — facial recognition glasses at the service of the security forces.
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and, remember this moment? well, we catch up with the man behind the viral video that put his family in the media spotlight.
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