have told president trump of their pain and anguish, appealing to him directly to bring in new gun controls. mr trump said he was considering arming teachers and banning gun—free zones around schools. with concern growing over the syrian government's bombardment of the rebel—held area eastern ghouta, on the outskirts of damascus, diplomats at the un are considering a new attempt at a 30—day ceasefire. it's not clear whether russia — a major supporter of the assad government — will veto. a new study from the university of oxford has found that anti—depressa nts are effective. researchers analysed more than 500 clinical trials and included previously unpublished data held by drug companies. the findings refute recent suggestions that some treatments don't work. now on bbc news stephen sackur is here with hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk.

i'm stephen sackur. this hardtalk programme, like so many others in the churn of 24/7 news tends to focus on people and places facing problems and challenges. more often than not we hold the powerful to account for things that went wrong, not right. are we missing the bigger picture about the world we live in? my about the world we live in? my guest psychologist and writer steven pinker thinks so. his new book, enlightenment now, isa his new book, enlightenment now, is a paean to human progress driven by reason and science. how convincing are his reasons to be cheerful? theme music plays. steven pinker welcome to hardtalk.

thank you. this idea of the enlightenment is very dear to your heart. can you briefly, if you will, catch for me what you mean by enlightenment enlightenment the. the first of the intellectual movement of the second half of the 18th century that put a premium of reason as opposed to authority, tradition, doctors, on science, on the attempt to explain the world by testing hypotheses and on humanism, the individual humans as the ultimate good as opposed to the triumph of a

nation and faith. is it your proposition that it captures universal values? european and american. although every idea has to come from somewhere, so it is european in that sense, but it is based on reason and universal human interests. everyone wants a long life, to be healthy, almost everyone wa nts life, to be healthy, almost everyone wants knowledge and education. people would prefer to live in safety rather than danger, all things being equal. science and reason have underpinned so much of human thought and scientific and technological developments in recent centuries but is it you're feeling that this enlightenment is under threat? it absolutely is and has

been since it was formulated. the counter enlightenment of the 90s century roseberry quickly. —— 19th century roseberry quickly. —— 19th century rose very quickly. the idea that the individual is merely a cell in the super organism, consisting of race and groups. and also authoritarian populism with trump in the us, and populous movement in eastern europe. you are suggesting that donald trump in the us, as far as you are concerned, and utterly illogical and counter—productive political movement. indeed. talking about the intellectual roots of trumpeter sounds like an oxymoron but he was advised by people like stephen bannon and steve miller and

michael anton who consider themselves intellectuals and are influenced by a counter enlightenment tradition and you can see some of the themes of trumpism trumpism wet the soul is embodied in a strong leader. these are things that run through trumpism. a strong leader. these are things that run through trumpismm a strong leader. these are things that run through trumpism. it seems to me his politics is driven by emotions, by an appeal to a person's cup in sticks rather than their rational brain. —— instincts. the skill of donald trump is that, unlike many of his political rivals, he found and continues to find a way to connect with a significant part of the american population. indeed

and emotional impulses such as tribalism, authoritarianism, besting power in a charismatic leader, reasoning by an act don't rather than by fax and data —— anecdote, the story of the american who is mowed down by an illegal immigrant breaking traffic law, is an appeal to our not so rational side... if trump is an aberration, he is not a bleep, he is part of a long line of politicians that you would say the last few centuries have been a triumph of science and reason, many would say that last few centuries have absolutely shown is that the human species is often driven by gut instinct and emotion and by feelings that are not anything to do with science or reason. indeed. one of

the misconceptions about enlightenment thinkers is that we assume we are all rational. like mr spock from star trek. but david hume, spinoza, there were avid stu d e nts of hume, spinoza, there were avid students of human nature and they proposed norms and institutions that would work around for our dhaka impulses so those impulses are over with us. —— dark. impulses so those impulses are over with us. -- dark. you are saying that we need to understand that as human beings have never had it so good and that in terms of statistics on world hunger, on poverty, on loss of life to warfare, that things are rather wonderful on our planet today and that is not the way many people in both the developed and developing

world actually sit and experience of the world? that is right. as long as tragedy and problems have not been reduced to zero, there will always be enough of them to feel the news and since we are driven by anecdotes and since we are driven by anecdotes and narratives rather than data, u nless we and narratives rather than data, unless we see the data, we can miss the fantastic progress. not uniformly... we cannot dismiss half of all syrians, i2 uniformly... we cannot dismiss half of all syrians, 12 million people, being displaced on their homes, many hundreds of thousands killed. we cannot dismiss that as an unimportant bleep in the data. absolutely not but because of our rising moral standards, we care more about people than out ancestors did so things can look worse than... how

can you measure compassion?” so things can look worse than... how can you measure compassion? i do not have data on compassion but, if you look at the way events are described and categorise, people forget that there were greater number of displacement during the partition of india, the korean war had far more casualties than the war in syria. this is not to minimise the horrific suffering of the people in syria but the imperative to recognise the people in earlier eras and to realise that not stuck with the amount of suffering. just as earlier generations reduced the number so do we. the realisation that these are not utopian aspirations, that

displaced people and walls and refugees can be reduced. come back to the point that most people on this earth do not think the way that you do, partly because they are not trained in the way that you have, but you are driven by bigger data, meta data and you crunch the numbers and you take a very high overview of the way the world works. most folks do not do that. they relate to their own experience and their own perception. how much value is there only telling us we should be more cheerful and positive and optimistic when it does not match reality for most of us? that is why we have education, persuasion, discourse, debate. in order to counter our intuitions and impulses which are often misleading. a lot about intuitions are systematically biased. something that can be

amplified... but you have abayas also. we all do. you are the product of your nurture just as high. when people today expressed doubt about expertise and they sometimes say, you know what, you can prove almost anything with statistics, they have anything with statistics, they have a point, don't they? you cannot prove everything with statistics, not if you are honest but you make choices about the data you put into your numbercrunching computers, you decide what particular facet of the human condition to profile, it is all subjective. then you challenge me and observers get to hear the various sides and see who

has the most persuasive case. the fa ct has the most persuasive case. the fact that science has progressed shows that, despite human disagreement and the fact that we are blinded by our buyer says, over the long run, with free speech, open debate, the ability to challenge people and the onus to provide data to support your ideas, over the longer run, we can approach and understanding of truth. no question that everybody would agree that the data on global hunger and poverty suggests that most people in the world, in that material sense, things are better at today for most people but, if you take the most advanced society, the us, your radio progress and runs into real trouble because the generations the middle class has seen the living standards stag nate class has seen the living standards stagnate and in some years declined. when you look at the polls,

americans and said, the years that they have felt the country is on the wrong track. your theory of the eternal march to progress has been thwarted. forget about the eternal march to progress. problems are inevitable. we sold them as they arise. 0n inevitable. we sold them as they arise. on average we make progress. the us is a peculiar case because although people think of it as the prototypical advanced democracy, it is a laggard among western democracies... you cannot have an outlay of which is the most important economy in the world. it sets a standard and it is in many ways a country the rest of the world looks to stop if the message from the united states is that the values, the science, the humanism can take you so but then things

start to go wrong, that is a message important to the entire world. start to go wrong, that is a message important to the entire worldm start to go wrong, that is a message important to the entire world. it is an unfortunate message and in many ways it is a backward country compared to it's west stand peers. it has high incidences of crime, lower lifes pa ns, it has high incidences of crime, lower lifespans, more abortions, high drug use. any measure of social pathology. it is ahead of most countries of the world. but behind other... white? the us is an ambivalent enlightenment country because its constitution was perhaps the most famous product of the enlightenment. jefferson, adams, we re enlightenment. jefferson, adams, were men of the enlightenment but in many ways the country itself has been divided. there is an enlightenment country but also a more traditional culture of honour,

more traditional culture of honour, more heavily represented in the south than the west, the ethics that instead you have this interest institutions, that meet outjustice and secure social welfare, it is up to the individual defending himself and his family by the justifiable use of violence if necessary and a lot of american politics has always struggle between the culture of honour and the culture of the enlightenment. and so it is a peculiar example of a western democracy. the time when those values, weather it be from russia, china all elsewhere, are being challenged in a concerted and important and considerable way. they are being challenged, that's why i would not allude to an inexorable march of progress. the end of history was a brilliant bit of marketing. it's now a millstone that hangs around

francis fu kuyama's neck. a millstone that hangs around francis fukuyama's neck. in defence of fu kuyama, the francis fukuyama's neck. in defence of fukuyama, the number of democracies has increased since the end of democracy was published. democracies has increased since the end of democracy was publishedm the last 12 years more countries have seen a regression in diplomatic values. it's one of the more pessimistic measures of democracy. it's also an activist organisation and they are always biased towards our crime crisis. 0ther and they are always biased towards our crime crisis. other indicators of democracies. there's certainly been a deceleration. but freedom house has somewhat an alarmist picture and when you think about it, in our youth we both had 31 democracies in the early 19705, half of europe was behind the iron curtain. there was barely a democracy in latin america. taiwan and the philippines, indonesia, greece was a military dictatorship,

spain and portugal were under the control of fascism. it's true that there has been a push bike in countries like russia, turkey and venezuela. but still the overall trend continuing through the end of history has been towards democratisation. in your world view, i5 religion nothing more than an aberration when it enters the realm of public policy and governance? aberration when it enters the realm of public policy and governance ?m i5 of public policy and governance ?m is certainly... thei5tic belief, belief in a god who can work miracles, that's something that should be kept out of politics, yes. in the united states we have the separation of church and state, and i think this is an excellent principle, yes, we should not base policy on miracles. do you think you have too ro5y a view of human nature? i'm well-equipped to deny that charge. probably the strongest

case is that human nature is saddled with flaw5 5uch case is that human nature is saddled with flaw5 such as dominance, egocentrism, revenge, magical thinking and so on. i'm the last person that can be accused of having too ro5y a view of human nature. i think human nature is a complex system and together with our policies, there are, and i stole the phrase from abraham lincoln, but better angels of our nature, 5ides of human nature such as reason, empathy, self—control, moral norms that are in constant tension with our darker 5ides that are in constant tension with our darker sides and it's up to our institutions and our norms to empower our better angels, the parts of human nature that over the long run can read to institutions that tame our inner demons. your academic discipline is psychology rather than history for example. i want to quote to you something that perhaps put5 an historical sense of perspective onto your thinking about the

enlightenment, it comes from a commentator in the uk responding to your book, jenni ru55ell, 5he commentator in the uk responding to your book, jenni ru55ell, she says every civili5ation has believed in its in vulnerability until it falls, from the greeks, the romans, the mongols, the ming dynasty, it couldn't recognise the threats to it before it is too late and your blind spot is believing the appeal of liberal democracies and the light and values that underpin them are so powerful that they need only to be spelt out to be accepted. -- in lightand. spelt out to be accepted. -- in light and. no. i would spelt out to be accepted. -- in light and. no. iwould identify spelt out to be accepted. -- in light and. no. i would identify the blind spot among people who confuse the existence of progress with some forced inevitability or indestructibility a5h enlightenment. people are so unused to even conceiving of progress that they can't distinguish a factual claim like things are better than they we re like things are better than they were several decades ago, or several centuries ago, with these mystical

notions of vulnerability or inexorable march is. they're not the 5ame inexorable march is. they're not the same thing. you can acknowledge we live longer without saying that we live longer without saying that we live in a utopia all we are going to live in a utopia all we are going to live forever. what about science, you are a scientist they sought, but if one looks your claims for technology and science and the degree to which they continue to deliver us to a better place, one can quite quickly counter with obviously climate change being a ma55ive global problem which 5cience for the moment seems incapable of coming up with a clear 5olution, for the moment seems incapable of coming up with a clear solution, one could look at the degradation of our environments, particularly the ocea n5 environments, particularly the oceans and microplastic5 right now. 0ne oceans and microplastic5 right now. one could say your faith in science look5 misplaced. one could say your faith in science looks misplaced. all of the facts you mention of course our scientific discoveries, and so without science... their discoveries of the harm science is doing. that's what technology has done. the way to deal with them is to understand what caused them and what camera burst them. that's where you have to marry

human ingenuity in science and human motivation and science —— what can reverse them. we don't have the motivation to undertake the massive cooperative effort to solve these problems. we do, not enough, but we do. the paris climate accord and certainly shows the world, again with one conspicuous exception, can come to an agreement. the exception is pretty darned important. although remember that the pushing back on our president, and we can't withdraw from the accord for another three yea rs from the accord for another three years anyway, by which time it is possible president trump will be a lame duck and his successor will reinstate the american participation, but individual states, individual corporations, the rest of the world and the rest of the world of course can push back against the united states when it violates the paris agreement by

putting tariffs on american goods based on their carbon emissions. so the act of one president unnecessarily undo the progress, although they might. when you talk like that i'm just reminded that the historian mall ferguson said at times he is reminded of doctor pangalos when he listens to use. doctor pangalos, that's a mistake, pangalos is a pessimist, he said we live in one, the best of all possible worlds. —— listens to you. you're much more optimistic than doctor pangalos? pangalos was a a defender of the belief that god was incapable of making the world any better than the way we find it today. just go back to climate change, we are not on track to solving the problem of climate change, there's no doubt. i'm not an optimist in the sense that everything will all workout. we're almost out of time but in essence you always are. here's my invitation

to you at the end of this programme, some people today look at where we are with climate change, for example, or indeed with nuclear proliferation, and in particular the nuclear stand—off right now with donald trump's united states administration and north korea, and they think to themselves, we've probably never been closer to seeing existential threats to humanity come to reality, but your worldview would suggest we have it within us always to avert those accidental threats?|j to avert those accidental threats?” think there is an imperative to see our way through to avoiding the ex— essential threats, to treating these as problems to be solved, not to declare that we're doomed so we may as well enjoy life while we can, but to put the pressure where it has to be placed for the changes of policies, changes of administration, so we mitigate the severest threats. and your life, your experience suggests to you that there is every

good reason to continue to believe that human beings will get to where they need to be? not that there is every reason but there is a reason, not that it's inevitable, who knows what the probabilities are, but it is possible and therefore there is the imperative to take the steps that have the greatest chance of solving the problems. we have to end there but steven pinker, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thanks for having me. thank you very much. a very cold spell of weather is on the way, it's just a little too early to say whether it's going to be particularly exceptional for the end of february and early march but one thing is for sure,

it looks like temperatures could struggle to get above freezing, some time next week and there is snow on the way as well, just uncertain exactly how deep and where. so the forecast so far is going according to plan. those easterly winds are starting to strengthen and they will keep strengthening as we go over the next few days. by the end of the night, early on thursday morning, not too cold, not at this stage. temperatures in towns and cities will be around about zero, maybe a little below. outside of town a good frost on the way. in these situations when we get an area of high pressure, there is always a bit of cloud floating around so not everybody is going to get the sunny skies but on balance it is going to be a bright day for most of us and it is starting to feel a little bit colder now. those temperatures will be struggling in the east. four degrees in norwich, briefly during the day. most of the day it will be lower than that.

still relatively mild in belfast, around 8 degrees. this is thursday's forecast across europe. these are the daytime highs. minus 10 in moscow — the big freeze has hit that place. minus 2 in warsaw. not quite across western parts of europe. still in a relatively mild air but the wind will start to feel stronger and colder as we go towards the weekend. just a hint briefly of a southerly, maybe just around ireland and the western isles but that is pretty much it. so the temperatures will keep on dropping away by day, by around a degree or so. as we go through the weekend, that high—pressure continues to strengthen and build from russia, and when high—pressure strengthens, the winds around it strengthen as well and they keep pushing in the colder air, straight out of russia. so the temperatures will keep on dropping away during the course of the weekend. i suspect even those values here are too high, it could be even as low as a couple of degrees above freezing, by sunday, in some major towns and cities. then the high—pressure gets even more intense and, yes, there are snow showers developing. you can see those blobs of white effecting almost any part of the country. so the big freeze is on the way,

it is just too early to say where the coldest of the air is going to go. it could actually sink towards more southern parts of europe and into france, or it could go straight over us, or, as we have been talking in the last two days, it could engulf the whole of europe. so for now, we do know that it is going to be cold next week with widespread frost, possibly by day as well, a bitter wind and snow for sure. this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top stories: a white house meeting for survivors of school shootings — president trump hears the anger of family members. psychiatrists welcome a new review of scientific evidence that says anti—depressant drugs do work after all. venezuela was once the richest country in south america, now children like these are growing up hungry and malnourished. judgement day — europe's car industry is on tenterhooks

as a court is set to decide whether diesel vehicles can be banned from german cities. we'll be live in germany to find out what this could mean for the rest