was someone in russia responsible for the poisoning on an english street of a double—agent? and, after italians deliver the political mainstream another drubbing, are europe's leaders capable of fighting back? with me: yasmin alibhai brown, who came to the uk as a refugee from a hostile country and is now a political commentator. agnes poirier of the french news magazine marianne. stephanie baker, us journalist writing from here for bloomberg markets. ian birrell, columnist with the british newspaper the mail on sunday. a warm welcome to you all, good to have you with us again. the news that donald trump is to meet kimjong—un, the north korean leader, to discuss reducing the nuclear threat surprised many. only hours earlier he'd been posing as a warrior, at least in trade terms — signing into law tariffs aimed at repelling imports of steel and aluminium. "trade wars are good and easy to win", president trump tweeted. six months ago, the president warned he could unleash "fire, fury and, frankly, power" against pyongyang. perhaps the summit with kim suggest that's a war mr trump doesn't think he can win.

ian, is it evident that his combination of mockery and threats has delivered? no, ithink combination of mockery and threats has delivered? no, i think obviously the positive and optimistic hope of this is that two mavericks might make a deal. but i think it's highly unlikely. i think the truth is, trump has a habit of being boastful and bragging and and and e—fit very different things are happening. here he has gone out on a limb, we are seeing him grow back a bit in america, he has gone out on a limb and promised this, giving away with one of his cards, just like with recognition ofjerusalem. the truth is, they are talking about very different things. trump wants to see nuclear weapon is removed from pyongyang. qian yan will not do that, it is a vile state run by a very small elite and they depend on the nuclear weapons for safety. you have been to both north and south

korea? i spent a long time with dissidents, somebody in the special forces with north korea, he said that during the sunshine policy, which won a nobel prize, they were ramping up ideas of how to attack cities in the south, how to use nerve agents, building up stockpiles of nuclear and biological weapons. they are talking about very different things. north korea are talking about things such as demilitarisation, denuclearisation of the korean peninsular and a removal of the threat. what they are releasing, they don't want america and american weapons on the peninsula. it is a very different thing. people always talk, they want to hear talks, they want to see people getting around the table together. but nobody comes up with, where is the deal? there is no deal, because pyongyang will not remove its weaponry and can't be trusted. and the world can't give anything to help. is kim jong-un playing donald trump? i think that is the fear.

sceptics have trump? i think that is the fear. sce ptics have said trump? i think that is the fear. sceptics have said that he could be walking into a clap. and trump, because he is very confident, thinks that this is a sales job and he because he is very confident, thinks that this is a salesjob and he can market his way out of it. it is consistent with the reality tv show formats of the presidency. that, you know, he loves to surprise, he loves the unconventional, he loves to be first to do something. in this case, the first time a sitting us president meets with a north korean leader. there has been speculation in the us that this was an attempt to distract from a more damaging story, this alleged hush money paid to this pornography star, headlines about stormy daniels were dominating and this is a way to push those down. this is an actress who claims that she had a relationship with trump, but he has denied a. his lawyer paid her off before the us election. some people are saying, if he can't do an airtight deal with a

pornography star, how is he going to doa pornography star, how is he going to do a deal with north korea?! the white house has suffered unprecedented departures in turnover, the state department is not operating at full capacity, we don't have an ambassador to south korea or an assistant secretary of state for asia. the person on point for north korea stepped down in frustration. rex tillerson was blindsided by this and not consulted. if you are going to do a deal with north korea, you do need to prepare. of course, diplomacy is better than the sort of schoolyard taunts on twitter, but this is a high risk gamble that may not pay off. what about ian's point about mavericks, mavericks can we the rules" we have got these two gorillas, really, who are really shaping up fora gorillas, really, who are really shaping up for a fight or a victory. but i disagree with what he and has just said. we were thinking of how we might disagree exact but i do

disagree, over 60 years, the korean bird's hill has been in this situation. what was really moving was to see how the people on both sides came together. they wanted to come together over the winter olympic games. and i think one has to think of a way to demilitarise the entire zone. the us has no business being there anyway. and japan now has two rethink its own policies on defence. but i certainly think that this doesn't come out of anything sensible like that, it comes out of these two men, who are arguably the least rational and most macho men upon the planet. two meant yasmine is not going to invite around a0! yasmine is not going to invite around 40! i think, you know, you save a north korean leader is rational, i have the feeling he is pretty rational, he's ruthless —— jasmine is not going to invite them around 40. i don't think rocket

man...i around 40. i don't think rocket man... i don't think he is ridiculous at all. the idea actually comes from him. i like his father and grandfather, he's going to be treated as an equal. you know, his strange family has been ruling. and yea rs. strange family has been ruling. and years. and the korean —— for 70 yea rs. years. and the korean —— for 70 years. the war hasn't officially ended. i agree with you when you save or is room for massive misunderstanding. i think the sanctions are beginning to bite and this is the reason why came once you have some time. —— y kim jong—un wa nts to have some time. —— y kim jong—un wants to have some time. it happened by formerjimmy carter and madeleine albright, it's been going on for decades. each time north korea says, 0k, decades. each time north korea says, ok, we're not going to suspend... but i'm saying it's nothing to do with him or trump in that sense, they are playing games with each other. they want to be whatever they think they can be. you are right about the first, you know, i'm on

telly, and always the start of my owfi telly, and always the start of my own drama, what goes on. ian has done programmes on it, and other journalists do, what goes on in north korea isjust so shocking, and we don't know half of it, really. i'm not defending the country, but i do think the people of these two careers need a break. but we don't talk about china and japan. china doesn't want to see the us have more say than china. but china has been retreating. usually it was the choice, you know, the first choice for north korea. so this is really, you know, the asian countries, how they going to react? they have got something to play that. also, we must not fall for the pr of north korea. the reality is, it is such a tightly restricted country, you have to be part of the elite even to live in pyongyang, you need paperwork to go anywhere in the country. the only

people to come out are members of the elite. the elite are doing very well there. the rest of society is being crossed. at the core of it, it is the world's worst regime. it is notjust is the world's worst regime. it is not just hype and is the world's worst regime. it is notjust hype and propaganda. this isa notjust hype and propaganda. this is a country which runs death camps and have been accused by the un of breaking also also rules. but the people on both sides are desperate. divided countries help nobody in the end. long—term, 100 years from now, one wishes to see a united korea. i'm going to be ruthless now and we're going to move on. a week ago, perhaps as you were watching this programme, a man and his daughter collapsed onto a bench in an english cathedral city. sergei skripal was a russian former double agent, jailed by moscow and then freed in a spy swap. he's lived quietly in the uk ever since. the use of nerve agent prompted suspicion of state—sponsored poisoning, not exactly discouraged by the presenter on state television who warned russian traitors — "don't go to england, something is not right there".

yasmin, what's wrong? well, i think it is... this is not a surprise. we don't know. i keep hearing, we don't have the full facts. i don't even know if we ever will have the kind of evidence that people need to prove whether it came from, who did what. we still don't know what happened to litvinenko, we don't know what properly happened that. this man was killed in 2006 because of polonium, nobody can actually say for certain who killed him. the son of the man who's just been killed by in mysterious circumstances last yearin in mysterious circumstances last year in saint petersburg. we don't know. but what we do know is that putin asked for the law to be changed at one point so that traitors who had fled abroad could be cut down. so, i see connections between those kind of ambitions and what we see. and why did they move

to salisbury? this really is a question! laughter it is near porton down, the research establishment for chemical and biological weapons. britain establishment for chemical and biologicalweapons. britain is really a magnet for all spy stories. there is something in the british psyche that attracts that, but that's another programme. what is striking is that you could have thought that this man was safe. you know, he was a double agent, he admitted to his crime, he had been sentenced and officially pardoned and been the object of a swap, so everything is fine. so now they are digging up his wife's two —— grave and his son. people are wearing hazmat suit in case there is any contamination. whoever did it, i think the connections are pretty right, i mean, it's extremely frightening. you know, they say we can out strike whenever we want and

whoever we want, and there's nothing much you can do. i have the feeling that if much you can do. i have the feeling thatifin much you can do. i have the feeling that if in 2006, almost 12 years ago, if the british government had reacted more forcefully, perhaps they wouldn't have considered it twice before doing what they did in salisbury. but it's going to take another ten years, you know, we're starting the major and long—lasting inquiry. we will know more in ten years' time. but we can just shut down their bank accounts. this is the point. london, the uk, has more power than many western countries because of the amount of russian money that flows through london. and so money that flows through london. and so if they want to make the russians pay, they've got the ability to. and the local mp who is a government minister and also happens to be in the british treasury, the british finance ministry, but something on social media to say, there are

financial measures, this is one of the weapons that could be used. they haven't implemented the legislation to make the litvinenko law take effect. to seize assets even before proof? this would allow them to blacklist russian individuals with ties to human rights abuses or russian government officials that they have traced to nefarious activities. so they could push ahead with that, and they really need to. and if they do, you know, narrow down the cause of this and who was responsible, there should be much stronger response, i agree with that. the response to litvinenko was not strong enough. they should consider a boycott of the world cup, which is an incredibly important... it is due to open this summer in russia. it is an incredibly important event for putin, is a his moment on the international stage. that is a way to make him pay. one of the government security ministers we re of the government security ministers were saying on saturday morning, someone

were saying on saturday morning, someone has were saying on saturday morning, someone has come onto our were saying on saturday morning, someone has come onto our soil who has recklessly and brazenly committed —— in nasty crime using a nerve agent, you have to act in those circumstances? there are three certainties. president putin wiggles away and finds cracks in western societies and is pushing his right—wing malevolent creed, in syria he is warming and killing thousands of people. he did the first annexation on european soil and shot down a civilian airliner, he kills lots of his enemies. the second certainty is that britain will continue to talk tough and do nothing. we did nothing over ukraine, really, few sanctions here and there. the third thing is very clear, britain is the capital of dirty money in the world. all of the money is washed here by british lawyers, estate agents and bankers and sanctioned by british politicians. if britain wants to ta ke politicians. if britain wants to take tough action instead of registering state—controlled mafia

is basically companies that are operating here instead of allowing all of this money to washed through here, britain will do nothing and carry on taking the money. and it is to our shame. all we are about is money now. italy's national election may not have delivered a government yet, but there was a clear winner — populism. between them, 69% of voters supported parties that have challenged the political mainstream. it isn't just italy. from germany to greece, from the netherlands to hungary, a consensus that held since the collapse of the eastern bloc 30 years appears to be breaking up. angela merkel, now that germany has a government again, albeit one from a shrunken political centre, says she'll roll up her sleeves to begin reform of the european union. france's emmanuel macron, a rare mainstream winner of the last year, even suggested post—brexit britain would soon be hammering on the eu's door, pleading to be let back in. is that a case of hubris? can i unpick that narrative of doom and gloom and populism in golfing europe

that you find mainly in the british media. i'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if you go back since brexit, since britain shot itself in the foot, there's this element of schadenfreude. they want, you know, some part of the british media, the conservative part, they want everybody else act as unreasonably. there was not a day passed without an article before the french presidential election saying marine le pen is going to win. we want her to win, probably. no, she didn't, and she was never going to be elected. then angela merkel can't form that coalition in september. then you have all of these articles, oh, germany is unstable, germany is unfinished, merkel is going to go. of course she wasn't going to go. it was going to be difficult, she did it as expected. as for the italian elections. i mean, iwouldn't say it as expected. as for the italian elections. i mean, i wouldn't say it is 70% that voted for popular ——

populism. if they voted for 5-star and the northern league coalition. they were pro—european and very and -- until they were pro—european and very and —— until very recently. look at the electoral system in italy, it's been like this since the second world war. i'm not surprised at all by what's happening there, and it's not going to make much difference. forget about matteo renzi, once elected with 40% only a few back. things change in italy, and that's not going to change. merkel is there, macron was elected, yes, macron is very pro—european and 40 and like most young europeans and british young people, they offer more integration. and it's going to happen. it doesn't mean that, you know, the complacency and lack of

democracy in the european institutions shouldn't be addressed. and i think there's a recognition of that. and brexit was a shock. and i think there's a recognition of that. and brexit was a shocklj think there's a real question mark over this, you know, franco german plan for closer integration now as a result of this election. you know, more than 50% of italian voters voted for anti—eu parties. you know, italy is now dominated by politicians who have promised deep tax cuts, lavish spending programmes, and who while anti—eu. you know, look at for instance the plan for a banking union in europe. do you really think that german banks are going to sign up to a banking union to stop italian banks when italy is dominated by politicians that have decided to just below budget spending open? you know, i think that is... you are taking a longer view, talking about

50 yea rs' taking a longer view, talking about 50 years' time. right, in the broader context you have seen the collapse of the centre—left across europe, which is really down to the fa ct europe, which is really down to the fact that the social democratic parties have not defended the welfare state as they had previously, and they squeezed it as a way of paying for, you know, the outcome of the 2008 financial crisis. and this is the price. they've allowed these populist parties to come up with a similar type of, you know, platform off, you know, we're going to give you, we're going to give you a social spending programmes that, you know, harks back to a decade ago, even though we can't afford it. i mean, look at italy now. it's got the second highest debt to gdp ratio in the eurozone. 130% to gdp. so the idea that they can put shared with those spending programmes is very unrealistic. they have to have another election, it's not clear. i'm so pleased you said what you did,i i'm so pleased you said what you

did, i really needed somebody to say that, because i'm sick and tired of...i that, because i'm sick and tired of... i mean, ukip, including this institution. big up ukip in the most shameful way. whereas you could debate? but if you are talking about those continental results and —— where is ukip today. we saw the colla pse where is ukip today. we saw the collapse of the greek left. a lot of people thought that was down to corruption and denying true statistics. dutch labour has fallen too, less than 6%, used to be the main party of the left. the french socialists, 7.5%. and the extreme right as well. the german sdp, worst result in some two years, something is going on, isn't it? the brexit thing has kicked up a dust storm and there is a crisis. but in the end, good sense will prevail. i think the european commission and european parliaments need more power. ithink to have a kind of, you know, a parliament which doesn't have any power, that has been part of the

problem. reform is absolutely needed. i think the european project is much bigger than these individual kind of rather spoiled people reactions. the narrative we needed to change, when this crash happened, we needed people to say, it's these bankers, these capitalists, the worst kind of capitalists, who brought us here. instead the populist people bring —— lane three immigrants and the eu, we didn't capture the narrative. i'm really pleased you've captured that narrative. i think you are both been very complacent. i agree on the narrative, i think all the wrong people were blamed and i don't disagree on that at all. but let's look at europe and eastern europe as well, look at poland, hungary, italy, spain. you say that france was fine because the far right didn't win, but the far right where the second choice in the election. but marine le pen is on the way out. ukip has disappeared, but of course it has, it has achieved its aims and the tory party has switched hard to

the tory party has switched hard to the right. the idea is that populism has disappeared, we are living in interesting times. i know it is breaking the rule, but none of us really have a clue where it's going. it could be going in any direction. the idea that we can just... it could be going in any direction. the idea that we can just. .. week and be fatalistic. i'm not fatalistic. i'd just fighting for what i believe in, tolerance and borders which are fluid. the idea that populism isn't a threat is... the truth is that we are in very turbulent times which could go anywhere, there is such distrust of institutions, politicians, banks, the church, everything. so many illusions have been shattered. that's why this is both an interesting and a scary time. we need to fight back. we can'tjust say... we can't be complacent. we are saying, fight! this rolling over before popular resin with the history of europe. can't afford that —— rolling history of europe. can't afford that — — rolling over history of europe. can't afford that —— rolling over before populism with the history of europe. why the

institution is not able to grasp that, and what is that, however you wa nt to that, and what is that, however you want to describe it, that broad set of politicians from the christian democrats to the social democrats in so many continental european countries have appeared to be superfine, weak, or unable to keep i superfine, weak, or unable to keep ——, but answers in the way that stephanie was talking about?” stephanie was talking about? i don't think they have been supine or complacent. i think, think they have been supine or complacent. ithink, you know, when you go around the world can actually when you go around the world, people say to you, i've just been in africa, in india, they say, isn't it extraordinary what has been achieved by the eu? here, thousands of years of war. it's been kind of put to bed, actually. and, tough though it is, how nationalism and pan nationalism play out, this is admired. in africa they admired. we area bit admired. in africa they admired. we are a bit spoiled. because we don't get the kind of that we see. i've been to 60 countries in the last five years and i've never once heard

anyone say, i wish we had the eu! they may like a lot of things about europe... and we are so sceptical of democracy at a time when people are fighting and dying for it around the world, and trump is actually also being so cavalier with it and backing autocrats and everything, thatis backing autocrats and everything, that is part of the problem. we don't realise how precious democracy is. it is a generational point. you are optimistic about younger people being pro—european and wanting more integration. there is a lot of evidence from the very respected attitude studies that they do every year, the pew studies, last autumn. it said 29% of the people that they survey approved of a government in which a strong leader can make decisions without interference from parliament or courts. people are not that bothered about democracy, that's quite worrying, we have become too complacent. there is a dissatisfaction within young people. on the other hand, they didn't

bother to go and vote for brexit. and then they bothered to vote in favour ofjeremy corbyn just a sort of camilo, do something. they did vote. a lot more voted than they we re vote. a lot more voted than they were given credit by. like i will give you another statistic from the foundation. the least happy places in the world and europe and north america. where is the happiest country in the world? nigeria. america. where is the happiest country in the world? nigeriam shows that the idealism that has existed in lots of likely places, there is optimism in lots of part is in the world. but in europe and north america we are struggling to see it when we have things that others are fighting. thank you all very much. that's it for dateline london for this week. we're back at the same time a week from now. you can tweet us with your comments on the programme — @bbcshaunley. goodbye. hello, some rain around this

saturday, but you will have noticed the difference in the field of the weather, and i'll come onto that in just a moment. but if we take a look at the weather watcher picture from hull early on this morning, you can see some nuisance rain, poor visibility, that is the story further north, but behind the weather fronts milderair pushing in, and that will spill further north into scotland as we go through the day. the weather fronts will bring rain, one moving through northern ireland into scotland, another bringing showery outbreaks from the south—west later on this afternoon. in fact, if we take a look at the last few hours of the radar, you can see that the rain is heading through northern england,

northern ireland, stretching up into scotland. sleet and snow to higher ground, we are not too concerned about that, showery outbreaks of rain following on behind. for the six nations matches taking place this afternoon, there will be rain for the ireland—scotland game, but england play in france, where it looks like it will be 16 degrees and largely dry. for the remainder of the afternoon, unsettled, but feeling reasonably pleasant with southerly winds. light sleet across higher ground, primarily rain into scotland as milder air creeps in, wet with 10 degrees into northern ireland this afternoon, heavy rain perhaps into the lake district. and behind it, showery outbreaks of rain for england and wales. if we get sunny spells coming through, temperatures will respond, 13—15 degrees, not bad when you think about where we were this time last week. the rain will continue to drift steadily northwards, sitting in the northern isles by the end of the night,

like southerly breeze, temperatures in the low single figures, a chilly start, and with all that moisture around, and a light breeze in central and eastern england, some fog forming, so a murky old start to mothering sunday, but eventually that fog will lift, and a good deal of dry weather in the story, particularly for the north of the country. for wales, central and southern england, a scattering of showers, possibly heavy and thundery into the afternoon. if you dodge the showers, well, top temperatures are likely to sit at 9—12 degrees. enjoy your sunday, take care. this is bbc news, the headlines at 12. home secretary amber rudd will chair a second emergency meeting of the government's cobra committee later as the investigation continues into the poisoning of a former russian spy and his daughter. specialist troops have been deployed to salisbury, a police car is being examined,

and the grave of sergei skripal‘s wife has been cordoned off. he and his daughter yulia remain in a critical condition in hospital "a deal with north korea is very much in the making" — the words of president trump on twitter, as he agrees to a meeting with leader kim jong—un. the 21—year—old nephew of the actress liz hurley is in hospital after being stabbed repeatedly. and a british medal on day one of the winter paralympics. millie knight and guide brett wild take downhill silver in pyeongchang. this time last year, i sustained quite a severe concussion