since chairman mao zedong to remain in powerfor life. that is after the chinese parliament voted to abolish term limits on the presidency. the vote was widely regarded as a rubber—stamping exercise. out of almost 3,000 votes, just two delegates voted against the change, while three abstained. hundreds of english drinkers and diners in the area where a former russian spy was poisoned by a nerve agent have been told to wash their possessions. it is a precautionary measure after traces of nerve agent were found. and this story is trending on bbc.com: it is marvel‘s superhero film black panther, which has taken more than $usi billion at cinemas worldwide. the movie has been widely praised as a game—changer. its cast is largely black, with a black director, ryan coogler. that's all from me now. now on bbc news, it is time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur.

globalisation is a trend based on movement — of money, goods, ideas and people, across continents and national borders. in a world of glaring inequality, it has stirred a powerful backlash, manifested in the rise of nationalism and identity politics. and this clash of human impulses is fertile territory for my guest today, the pakistani novelist mohsin hamid. in his novels, he has explored cultural, economic and religious tensions between east and west, rich and poor. his latest book focuses on migration. why does it frighten so many of us? mohsin hamid, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you. i want to start with this interesting idea of yours, that you, you say, are a mongrel through and through. what do you mean by being a mongrel? when i was born in pakistan, a move to california when i was three, back to pakistan at nine, america 18, london 30, and back to pakistan about nine years ago. and along the way i have become ago. and along the way i have become a mixture of things. sol ago. and along the way i have become a mixture of things. so i can't think of myself as just pakistani or just british orjust american. i am a mixed up kind of creature, a hybrid. and that is what i mean by mongrel. it's a term that we tend to think of as kind of negative. yes, i mean, do you wear that badge with pride? i do, i think

mean, do you wear that badge with pride? i do, ithink that is something we should all wear with pride, because everyone is a mongrel, actually. we are descended from all sorts of people, and we have travelled and we have mixed throughout ancestry, but also in our own lives. but it is such an interesting statement, everybody is a mongrel. because of course, most people don't want to think of themselves as mongrel. indeed, the notion of longing, having a clear identity, having a group, a tribe that is yours, that is something that is yours, that is something that seems today, and the 21st century, to be extraordinarily important to people. century, to be extraordinarily important to peoplelj century, to be extraordinarily important to people. i think it is very important. i think that the sense of belonging to a group of people, having connection to those people, having connection to those people, is very important. but what happens sometime ago was the people we actually had a connection to, our media, you know, family and clan, was replaced by this idea of the nation, the nationstate. which is kind of a fictitious connection. we don't really have a personal connection to most people of our nation. well, the eu, maybe, but maybe not the most people. i wonder,

because of your rather special international upbringing, with a well—to—do family who moved with you to america and then could afford to put you through us university, and you got a very good job, you know, you got a very good job, you know, you are a part of the sort of a global elite, which most people in most parts of the world are simply not part of. that's true, absolutely. that said, i mean, my childhood was spent trying to blend in with other people. so i was like a chameleon. you know, more pakistani and pakistan, more american in america. and as i got older, i began to be comfortable being a bit of a misfit, a sort of a strange semi— foreign creature. but asi strange semi— foreign creature. but as i have become comfortable with this, what i find is how many other people find themselves feeling foreign. i think everybody feels foreign, actually. so, you know, the only gay trialed in a street family feels foreign. the only daughter with five brothers feels foreign. a poetin with five brothers feels foreign. a poet in the engineering faculty feels a bit foreign. there is a

sense each of us has of being a bit different, of not fitting in. just one more political thought about this notion of identity and belonging. it is a very interesting statement which the british prime minister, theresa may, came out with not so long ago. she said if you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are in fact a citizen of nowhere. you don't understand what the very word citizenship means. do you feel yourself, you know, with this mongrel idea of yours, to be a citizen of the world, rather than anywhere in particular?” citizen of the world, rather than anywhere in particular? i think we can have multiple, overlapping citizenships, so i am a citizen of london in the centre used to live here and pay taxes you, i feel something to this place, a connection to this place. i am also a british citizen, which to theresa may might make me a sort of a citizen of nowhere, because i am also pakistani. but it has a real meaning to me, in terms of my sense of connection to this country, and my belief in abiding by the laws of

this country, etc, voting when i am here. i don't think you become a citizen of nowhere. i think the question is, really, can you be a citizen of more than one place? can you be a family with two parents instead of one parent, as a child? i think you can. you can have multiple families that you belong to. your latest novel, exit west, it is a sort of an epic tale with epic elements to it about a couple that fall in love in a city which is never named, but let's say it sounds a bit like aleppo, in syria, a city which is pleasant but falls into the most terrible war. these two young people get caught up in it, and they ultimately decide that their only hope of a decent future is to leave. you wrote it, as i understand it, while living in lahore. did you write it because you've got yourself in the city, lahore in pakistan, which was almost as fragile and as vulnerable as a city like aleppo proved to be? i hope that lahore is not that fragile, but i imagine

people in kabul and aleppo and the massacres and sarajevo also felt that their cities were not that fragile. what has changed for me is the plausibility of this disaster occurring in the place where i live has grown. i think it has grown for many people in many places, and so the novel is born out of that kind of nightmare, something i hope will never happen. it is a visceral, personal fear. yes, i never happen. it is a visceral, personalfear. yes, i think, you know, living in pakistan, again, i don't want a sort of contribute a narrative that pakistan is going to decline and fall into chaos, i don't think it is likely to do so. i think it is likely to do the opposite. but it is likely to do the opposite. but it is likely to do the opposite. but it is possible that it could, and when you live in a place like that, various background fear that can occur, and for me does occur, and fiction is the way it takes place. and it is a fundamentally bleak vision. i mean, you catalogue and so many interesting emotional and intimate ways the way in which narrows down the life of all the people captured by it in this city,

trapped in this city. and in the end, asi trapped in this city. and in the end, as i say, the two young people decide that escape is their only alternative. but the really interesting thing you do in this novel, because a lot of it is quite realistic, and evokes images from aleppo and muzzle and elsewhere, but then what you do is you add this sort of fantastical element, where they discover a sort of magical doorway that can transport them from the hell of war to a new life, first ona the hell of war to a new life, first on a greek island, and then they make it to london. what is all this fabulous magic doorway about? well, sometimes i think we can get closer to emotional reality by bending other aspects that we think of as being real. so yes, the doors that they travel through don't exist according to physics as we know it. and yet we each carry around a small black rectangle in our pockets and oui’ black rectangle in our pockets and our handbags which is a kind of portal, you know, the screen of our phones. the smartphone. yes, through

which our consciousness leaps forward from our body constantly. we also know that if we wanted people to move very cheaply, they could. there is no technological reason why people can't move around the planet, maybe not instantaneously, but very, very easily. and so the doors for me area very easily. and so the doors for me are a combination of what technology is making our world feel like, the world we are suddenly seeing and mentally present wherever we wish to be, and away to compress the next couple of centuries of human history into a very short period of time. and yet, i suppose, the reader wonders whether you are devaluing the sheer bravery, courage, and also the sheer bravery, courage, and also the risk that comes with actually escaping war—torn city, and trying to make a new life. because, whether it be syria or whether it be sub saharan africa, those who choose to leave and try to reach the rich world, and usually it is europe,

they are undertaking a terribly dangerous journey, they are undertaking a terribly dangerousjourney, either they are undertaking a terribly dangerous journey, either by sea or across mountains and deserts, or maybe both. and your description of the migrant experience doesn't include that journey at all. yes, absolutely. i think that is... it is not my intention to minimise or to say that it is not horrific, the way in which refugees and migrants are often forced to travel. it is horrific, and very frequently deadly. but what has happened is, by focusing so much on the journey of these people, we have created a different category of human being. those who have crossed the mediterranean on a small rubber dinghy or crawled underneath the barbed wire on the us mexican border are different from us. we have made into another category of person, and then there's other category can be dealt with, i think, inhumanely. when you take away that part that makes them different, they are simply people who are in place, and then left the place for another place, which everyone of us has

done, even if it isjust place, which everyone of us has done, even if it is just leaving a paris houses to move out on our own. and so my intent was not to devalue, de— emphasise that part of the story, but to establish a kind of similarity between migrant communities and every else. to make them seem less different. yes, because at the end of the day, what i think we are encountering is not so much that there is a conflict between two are the kinds of feeling, the feeling of those who are fleeing dangerous geographies and the feeling of those who are resisting the arrival of those geographies. i think actually the feelings are very similar. the idea of losing the place where you grew up of losing the place where you grew up kennecott both because you change geographies, and it can occur because you are starting to feel foreign in a place where you yourself have grown up. and so if we can recognise that the sorrow of these two experiences is similar, we can get beyond the kind of fruitless notion of inevitable conflict between these two divisions. there

isa between these two divisions. there is a phrase in the book where you describe the passage they make from their war—torn home to a new life which ends up being for a long time in london, but then they actually make another move to california. the passage, you say, was both like dying and like the board. now, i am interested in the just edition of the two —— like being born. it says something about your own life as well when you lived in those different places, that yes, huge amount of opportunity came your way, but there was also, always, a sense of sorrow and loss as well. there is, i mean, there is an emotional violence to moving that we often don't give enough consideration. and the echoes of that emotional violence can go... proceed through oui’ violence can go... proceed through our lifetime and across generations. when, for example, if i were to leave pakistan again, my children everyday play with their grandparents. let's say we were to move somewhere far away and they we re move somewhere far away and they were to see them once a week... once

a yearfora were to see them once a week... once a yearfor a week. were to see them once a week... once a year for a week. that relationship would, ina a year for a week. that relationship would, in a sense, end. and there is an enormous sorrow to that ending. i think people do experience incredible senses of loss when they leave the place, and it is important to recognise that. when we say what has this person done, what have they given up to be here, the answer is, when you say that of the refugee, the migrant, they have given up everything. and the emotional consequences of that are huge. and one interesting... it is only one, but one interesting element of how they tried to maintain and memory of where they came from, is actually the use of religion as a vehicle and prayer as a way of reconnecting. and i'm particularly interested, because you of course are also the author of the reluctant fundamentalist, which looked at the relationship to in the west and the muslim world through the eyes of a young man meeting an american, a young pakistani man. and in this book, you have another young man, saeed, who turns to prayer. and

is your message that sometimes religion, in this case the muslim religion, in this case the muslim religion, can be a means of trying to maintain an identity? well, certainly it can be. i think that what has happened is that many... was it for you, by the way? religion asa was it for you, by the way? religion as a way of maintaining my identity? i would say that, in a sense, i 7} “fits“ of 55 how ..... .... 55 how i § how i = treated by group because of how i am treated by other people. so when i arrived on the eurostar from paris other people. so when i arrived on the eurostarfrom paris in london recently, everybody walked off the train, we had already been through immigration, i have a uk passport, but i was stopped by some of it and asked a whole bunch of questions, andi asked a whole bunch of questions, and i think it is to do with belonging to this group. so yes, to a certain extent. and did that make you feel resentful, angry? didn't actually reinforce this feeling of being the other? yes, it did those things. it made me sad more than those are the feelings, because i

think that the uk has been better than many countries at not having this sort of sense of constant surveillance. is that why you left the united states after 9/11? because you felt like you are being regarded as a potential threat? it wasn't the reason. i was living in london a couple of months before it happened. it was perhaps the reason i didn't go back after i initially had planned to do. it was at the george bush, the second george bush administration and a lot of wars we re administration and a lot of wars were starting and london felt very conducive as this kind of international hub of thinking, writing, people protesting the iraq war. i felt culturally, writing, people protesting the iraq war. ifelt culturally, politically, ina sense, war. ifelt culturally, politically, in a sense, more at home in london in those days. and yet, in the end it brings us back to where we began this conversation, questions of identity and belonging. he went back

to pakistan. despite everything you have said about the universality of the human experience and values, you in the end did what so many people did, you went home. i am not somebody who is a rootless mongrel wandering the earth. although that is no worse or better than any other kind of person. i am living in the same place i lived as a child. after having wandered in all these places. in athens, the reverse migration from the one is the overbearing in so much of the world. from the poor world to the rich world. —— in a sense. you made it in the rich world, you became a consultant, golden egg job and then you decided to bea golden egg job and then you decided to be a writer and had written best sellers. you were a success in new york, in london and yet, you decided

you wanted to make it your life in pakistan and eight s8 many of your friends said you are crazy. yellow that people thought it was a strange decision. —— many people thought it was a strange decision. —— and in a sense. migration has always been away for human beings to find what they are looking for. homo sapiens are not involved on the british isles. people came here over thousands of years and they keep coming. they don't necessarily stay. people whose ancestors have moved on to america, some might come back this way. i think we can migrate and return. this is where i struggle to keep up with you because it seems to me, when you talk about the migration of the future in which you say, and i am going to quote you've,

" i imagine when people are finally free to move as they please around our planet, they will look back at our planet, they will look back at our moment now and wonderjust as we wonder about those who kept slaves, how people who seemed so modern could do such cool things to their fellow human beings like caging them up fellow human beings like caging them up as animals". your implication being, we will reach this sort of heavenly moment where migration is just completely normal, acceptable, easy and accessible to everybody on this planet. i put it to you that flies in the face of everything about the human condition and human history. well, i think human history and a human condition is a march towards greater equality. until recently, the idea that black people would be slaves in a part of america in a certain part of history was common. the idea that women were inferior to men or that gay people should have the same rights as straight people will stop all these

things have changed. —— is straight people. all these things have changed. what hasn't changed are these strains of nationalism and populism and building borders. today, we can say that there is something about all of human history that yes, there are constant movement —— movements, which have involved epic amount of killing and bloodshed. i don't think they have. look at the history of north america, south america, central asia. almost any geographical part of the world is full of such stories. yes, there have been violence associated with migration but it's not necessarily the case. in north america, there was a genocide. the free colombian population was wiped out, as effectively. i have brown skin because tens of thousands of years, lighter skinned people have come into the darker skinned places that

they didn't actually massacre each other and result in lighter skinned people surviving. they stuck around and into next. most of human history isi and into next. most of human history is i think like that. it is not genocide after genocide. is i think like that. it is not gthink, e after genocide. is i think like that. it is not gthink, most r genocide. is i think like that. it is not gthink, most r genocidt don't is i think like that. it is not gthink, mosgfljefiocids don't that you are —— your rather optimistic view on migration and the intermingling of peoples, whether it is reflective of having a gilded life. i think probably it is. is reflective of having a gilded life. ithink probably it is. in that said, i think there are two strong reasons to believe it is going to happen. 0ne strong reasons to believe it is going to happen. one reason is the pressure of migration is going to become enormous. if we are truly going to resist it, we will no longer be able to simply outsource to libya and turkey, we will have

two actively kill people who want to come. direct barriers stop catch those who get through. catch those who try to help those get through. we will begin to... you are saying there is no middle ground? there is no control that is possible in a humanitarian way? there never has been. when have people stopped moving? we have always moved, it is the nature of humanity. we have never been confined to geographies in this way. the population of africa was a small fraction of europe 50 years ago. it will be multiples 50 years hence. when climate changes, people will move. 0ne climate changes, people will move. one would hope we won't have the stomach, i hope, to inflict the atrocities and create the totalitarian societies that will resist it. we actually need to think about ourselves as humans and less divided to solve the most pressing problems we face. climate change cannot be solved by country thinking

of national self interest. the issue of national self interest. the issue of migration i don't think will be addressed if —— in this way. the most important issue is how we will regulate and manage technology. we machines that zif if in and??? of in 555 and??? of us in 5555 and??? of us lose 55 and; a of us lose 55 and; a vs"; of us lose 55 q a g' of us los planet. h of this requires a more all of this requires a more human thinking. and they use it in pakistan. i want to end by coming back to your current life in pakistan. you have left california where you just said, so many of these developments in tec have come from and you are now looking in at population of 200 million that is mainly poverty. these are disheartening times. —— tech. you

feel more disheartened about the direction of your company because the question has become about who is muslim enough and the answer appears to be nobody ‘s is muslim enough. after a ll to be nobody ‘s is muslim enough. after all of your optimism about what humanity can achieve and the values that we idea lies, actually, your own home, you seem to think, is in very profound trouble. it is in trouble but i think it can get out. that is important for us to begin to articulate optimistic visions of politics, the future, culture. what we are facing right now is that dominant of the spellcheck pessimistic visions. if you are pessimistic visions. if you are pessimistic about having a more equal world, you tend to think it is a good idea to make america great again. thanks for putting that phrasing. ijust noted donald trump's first tweet at 2018, directed at pakistan. "they have given us nothing but lies and deceit giving safe haven to the terrorists

we are hunting for in afghanistan. " it seems to me that right now you are living in a part of the world that giving the messages being donald trump! donald trump and the current be! “am” tween and the sgjrrge‘gw fl ,, , , ,, ,, fl administration ht! “am” t'tj’e‘ee eht! the avenge... ,, ,, , , ,, ,, ,, administration is going to american administration is going to bea american administration is going to be a cockpit of tension and trouble. yes, but, what we are seeing is an older generation that has migrated to becoming older, it is in power right now. disproportionately, they wa nt right now. disproportionately, they want these barriers for the younger americans disproportionately did not vote for donald trump and younger british did not vote for brexit. younger people are more comfortable with this openness. this is how civilisation evolves. we don't suddenly become enlightened. the older generation, people like us who have more closed minded views, eventually die. we each achieve the great brexit in the sky. and then the younger people who are left who are still here will take us into domains with can't imagine including people moving around the world in the way that today we think about as

very strange. you are one of the most optimistic people i have ever met. well, i am a father. it is my job to the optimistic was not pessimism is feeding a medical reactionary thinking. —— political reactionary thinking. —— political reactionary thinking. —— political reactionary thinking. we have to went there. thank you for being on hardtalk. -- went there. thank you for being on hardtalk. —— we have to end there. hello there. well, southern parts of the uk were fairly unsettled for the second part of the weekend. the best of the dry and brighter weather was further north. but even across the sourth west, despite the showers and increasing rain, there were spells of sunshine which broke through. as we head into monday, this area of low pressure will be in control of the weather

across england and wales. further north, it should be drier with clear spells. as we head through the course of the night into the early hours of england and wales. just nudging into southern parts of scotland. although for northern ireland and scotland, it should be a dry start to monday. quite chilly with mist and fog around but less cold because of the cloud and rain and the wind across england and wales. it looks like a messy morning commute for england and wales, outbreaks of rain, some quite heavy and turning windy across the south—west of england, towards the channel islands in the afternoon. gusts of 40—50 mph. we will see a line of showers pushing in to western parts of northern ireland. some sunny spells for northern ireland and western scotland. a cooler feel to things across the board. temperatures ranging from 7—11. on tuesday, a ridge of high pressure builds in before this area of low of low pressure makes inroads for wednesday and thursday to bring a succession of fronts with outbreaks of rain. for tuesday, we will start to lose

the low pressure system from the south—east. and then conditions brighten up. the winds fall lighter and the sun is strong this time of year so it should feel quite decent in the sunny spells although temperatures will still be in single figures for a few. we could see 10 or 11 degrees in a few spots, maybe the odd shower. a ridge of high—pressure breaks down as we head towards wednesday. notice the squeeze isobars become tightly packed together. winds coming up from the south, always a mild direction. we start off on a cool note across the east with the best of the sunshine. further west, outbreaks of rain for northern ireland around irish sea coasts. it should stay largely dry and given some sunshine, and a mild feel, temperatures into the low teens celsius. for the week ahead, fairly

unsettled with a lot of cloud and windy. a bit of rain at times and then turning a bit colder, particularly towards the weekend as colder air moves in off the near continent. bit ofa i'm rico hizon in singapore. the headlines: no limits for president xi — is he voting himself a lifetime in power? difficult times for democrats in hong kong. they win two seats in the by—election — but lose their veto power in the assembly. i'm sharanjit leyl in london. also in the programme: a test of colombia's historic peace deal —

former guerrillas face a tough contest in national parliamentary elections. raising their game — meet the robots that get better at football every time they play.