agent attack that poisoned a former spy and his daughter on uk soil. moscow's ambassador to the un denied russian involvement in the attack. earlier, britain announced the expulsion of 23 russian diplomats. tens of thousands of students have walked out of classrooms across the united states to call for tighter gun controls. they staged a 17—minute protest to represent the 17 people who were killed in the florida school shooting exactly a month ago. researchers in the united states say they have found particles of plastic in some of the most popular brands of bottled water. in the largest study of its kind, more than 200 bottles were screened. an average of ten plastic particles per litre were discovered, each larger than the width of a human hair. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. 50 yea rs

50 years ago us soldiers committed a war crime that came to haunt the doomed mission to rollback communism in vietnam. more than 500 men, women and children were systematically slaughtered in the village of my lai. the terrible truth was exposed thanks to the work of investigative journalist seymour hersh. he can look back on a lifetime of reporting that has been punctuated by scoops, prizes and plentiful confrontations with the powers that be. 50 years on from my lai, are journalists still able to tell the truth to power? seymour hersh, welcome to hardtalk. hello. white you will have always said that key to yourjournalism was this idea you had of being the outsider. where did that mindset

come from? i can't psychoa nalyse come from? i can't psychoanalyse myself, i don't understand it, but i was an outsider. i grew up... my parents we re outsider. i grew up... my parents were immigrants, neither one graduated from high school. the only learning i did, the real pressure i had, was when i was 13 i was getting the book of the month club, which is non—fiction every month, and reading sometimes about the perils of communism but also reading about the hackford monarchy and the chinese history, so i was always reading on myself. as a journalist, i've learned two things that i think is important, one you have to read before you write, and then when you get the story you've got to get the hell out of the way of the story and just know enough to tell it, let the words tell it. there's no such thing asa words tell it. there's no such thing as a fantastic story, there's a story that becomes fantastic in the telling. those are two things i kept in mind always. i'm very aware you came of age, you entered the world of work and entered journalism in the 1960s, a time of deeply

polarised opinion, a time when many young americans, particularly at university and right after it were ofan anti—war university and right after it were of an anti—war persuasion, was that you? know, i came in in 60, 19 of an anti—war persuasion, was that you? know, i came in in 60,19 60. i went to the university of chicago, was an ok student, i hated law school, dropped out, sold beer, what kids do, got a job as a police report, crime reporterfor the agency called the... i learned there that the city was yours as long as you... you could be tough on cops as long as you didn't interfere between the cops and between the and fear because the chicago mafia ran the city and as long as you respected that. i saw up close tyranny in a way. let's remember we're recording this interview at the very time of the 50th anniversary of one of the darkest incidents in the history of the us military and us war fighting, that is the massacre of more than 500

civilians in my lai. that was in march of 1968. we might never know the extent of what happened, the truth of what happened, if it hadn't been for your reporting. how did you dig deep into that story? what brought it to you? i ended up working for the associated press in chicago and then i ended up in washington for them covering the pentagon. i like military people, and i like people in the intelligence community, as critical as i can be, because there's a lot of very good ones. at that time i was very aggressive and energetic and i wouldn'tjust take briefings, i ran around and talk to people. i think one should. i don't wa nt people. i think one should. i don't wanta briefing, i people. i think one should. i don't want a briefing, i want to know for myself what's going on. i began to get into the cynicism of the officer corps about the war and i began to meet officers. america... like your country, we're a very open society, and before long there telling me, it's a bloodbath. so i knew there

was trouble and so when i got a tip... somebody called up one day and said to me, hersh, maybe you will chase it, there's a terrible story, so i tried to run it down, it took a little while, then surely i learned the name kelly from and offers a. that's important because this gentleman, william cowley, who was a lieutenant i think leading a platoon, the company, charlie company, this particular offensive operation which ended up in the village off to, he was at the centre of your story. —— of my lai. you found him when he was back in the united states in 1969 after this terrible event. how did you find him? you know, i wasn't told his name, iwas him? you know, i wasn't told his name, i was told something bad had happened and i'd gone nowhere, looked and looked. the military... i was in the army, i understood in the army you can't hide anybody. it's a big combine, big machine, one day i'm walking and i see a young officer i hadn't seen before, he's a

kernel, and he was limping. i'm just chasing a story, it was a month of not finding anything, i was doing other things, i had a book contract andi other things, i had a book contract and i bumped into him and hejust came back and he was limping and i knew him well because he was a very good guy when i was at the pentagon, this was two years later, he said, what the hell are you doing here? he saidi what the hell are you doing here? he said ijust got what the hell are you doing here? he said i just got shot what the hell are you doing here? he said ijust got shot in vietnam. he said, ijust made general. i said, my god, you took a bullet to make general? i said, what are you doing now? i said general? i said, what are you doing now? isaid i'm general? i said, what are you doing now? i said i'm working for the chief of the army, a general wes morgan. i said wow. i said tell me about this massacre. this very nice quy: about this massacre. this very nice guy, i'm thinking just telling me something incidental, then he started hitting his badly, this general, hejust shot started hitting his badly, this general, he just shot everybody, there's no story there. it's the perfect mesh, here's an officer being responsible and here's me saying oh my god, he hasjust

dropped a dime on me and of course i'm playing cool, i don't want anybody to know. from their once i had the name i found out there was a calley that had been in the army, i found a lawyer, flew out to see the lawyer, he was a mormon insult like city, calley‘s lawyer. lawyer, he was a mormon insult like city, calley's lawyer. the point we need to get to is your confrontation with calley. you found him, he was still in fort benning, georgia, presumably still wearing his military uniform and you went down their? i didn't know where to go, i knew he had come into fort benning. we don't have so much time so i want to cut to the chase if i may. i want to cut to the chase if i may. i want to know, when you finally locate him, you agree to meet him, he agrees to see you, him, you agree to meet him, he agrees to see you, he knows you're a journalist, what was that moment like when you met a guy who you knew by then was intimately involved in the massacre of hundreds of vietnamese women and children as

well as men? of course i wanted to hate him because i thought he spoiled not only what he had done to the vietnamese but also to america, i thought he had done something heinous and he turned out to be this very slight, nervous, frightened, he said to me quickly and casually, your lawyers told me you were going to find me, i look for him for 15 hours. i went to where he was living, he gave me a beer, he had translucent skin, you could see his veins, he talked about it as if it had been a big battle. it wasjust a massacre and i knew that already but at one point he went to thejohn connor he said i had to go to the john, the door was ajar and i could see he threw up bacterial blood, which meant he had an ulcer. i knew this guy was dying. eventually he didn't want me to go away, he kept me there for half a night, i didn't

get to him until about 11pm and 6am i'm still there. we had dinner, he picked up a nurse he knew, he tried to be normal and he ended up telling so many different stories it was complicated as hell, he really screwed himself with me. was he telling anything like the truth? we 110w telling anything like the truth? we now know the next to the eyewitness testimony of those few people who survived the macro to massacre, we know 100 people were rounded up and put ina know 100 people were rounded up and put in a drainage ditch and they we re put in a drainage ditch and they were shot down, including impotence, including women and their children. we know one child escape to the training pitch, he hadn't been killed under one of the bodies, he escaped and then as i understand it calley ordered one of his men to get that child, bring him back and then shoot him down. did calley confessed ? shoot him down. did calley confessed? he told different stories. initially he said it was just a battle and later he said, i had orders. the answer is he did not confess, he did not say it was murder, he said there may have been a lot of unfortunate deaths in

between, there was a firefight and people were there. he told a complicated story that didn't make sense. i want you to watch with me a piece of tape, a hardtalk interview from 2004, and extraordinary interview done with hugh from 2004, and extraordinary interview done with huthohnson. he was an army pilot. i know about him. he was in a helicopter, he came down over my lai, he put it in front of us troops trying to get to a makeshift bunker where a dozen vietnamese villagers were sheltering, trying to escape from the violence, and he said to those us troops, he said, if you try and attract these villagers i'm going to get my gun is to fire at you. now that was heroism. let'sjust look get my gun is to fire at you. now that was heroism. let's just look at his recollection of my lai, because you've talked about it, let's see a man on the grounds remember it. they were lined up, marched down to a ditch, some of them, 170 of them,

hands above ahead, and executed. that's not war, that's not what a soldier from any country does. that's murder. these were not soldiers. these were hoodlums. these we re soldiers. these were hoodlums. these were terrorists. disguised like soldiers. no soldier is taught to do that. i knew the pain and suffering inflicted for no reason, no reason whatsoever, there was no threat. it's amazing looking at that even now, he says these men, the us soldiers, were not soldiers, they we re soldiers, were not soldiers, they were hoodlums and terrorists. hugh johnson, think it's fair to say, was never really the same man again. he took to drink, he died early, and he died in some ways a broken man. you we re died in some ways a broken man. you were not in my lai at the time but

you wrote about it and you thought about it and it's been a shadow in your life ever since. has it affected you? oh my god, i would cry. there are things i didn't write about, digging live babies, throwing them up and catching them with bayonets. the raping that went on. i had a two—year—old child. i get teary now. you cry thinking about it. i would call home. i don't know whether i was crying for myself, for my country all those kids. i ended up my country all those kids. i ended up writing a couple of books about it and up writing a couple of books about itandi up writing a couple of books about it and i ended up by saying those that did the killing were the victims in a way as much as those they killed, there was a sense they had no idea they had been allowed to become animals by the lack of leadership. there was a complete breakdown in leadership across—the—board. breakdown in leadership across—the—boa rd. thompson suffered immediately, by the way. he went back that day, you have no idea how it strawberry it is to land a chopper. it's a chopper with two

machine—guns —— extraordinary. larry coleman was there as well and i got to know him very well. the kids at my to know him very well. the kids at my lai,i to know him very well. the kids at my lai, i saw them a year later, they were all working nightjobs with no people around. the us soldiers who came back were broken men? those who killed and those who didn't kill, those who did kill didn't kill, those who did kill didn't tell because they were afraid of getting ebola too —— didn't kill. thompson came back and by the afternoon every officer was on their ask. don't report this, we will give you a break, we won't court—martial you for this. he was doing the right thing in the wrong place at the wrong time i guessed. i don't think he did,i wrong time i guessed. i don't think he did, i think he did the right thing in the right place but they went nuts trying to stop him from carrying on. you are a reporter now in your 81st year, think i'm right in saying, and you've seen a lot of warfare, you've seen a lot of conflict, you've studied what happens to men in the most

stressful, the most violent situations and you, for example, leaving aside vietnam, are famed for your reporting of what the americans did in iraq after the invasion, including the torture and abuses in abu ghraib. what are your conclusions about what can happen to soldiers in the most extreme circumstances, even american soldiers, who are supposed to be upholding the values of freedom and democracy and everything else, what happens when they are in these situations? it depends on leadership. if you are a young captain and you have 100 boys under your command, you are a local practice. when the system fails from the top on, that is what happened. it was a option from the top down. there was a famous line of the general at the time saying that the general at the time saying that the vietnamese don't mind dying like we do, it is not as much of a for them. the action is that in a famous

documentary. —— he actually said that. it is a little scary to think about how awful it can be in the military, not just american, about how awful it can be in the military, notjust american, you quys military, notjust american, you guys had a problem too. do you believe in evil? that is partly what iam thinking. believe in evil? that is partly what i am thinking. you know, i don't think it matters what i believe in 01’ think it matters what i believe in or what i think, it matters what i do in or what i think, it matters what i doina or what i think, it matters what i do in a sense. i think there is evil. that is a terrible question, i don't want to answer it in a terrible, funny way because i see how quickly you can get to evil and igrok how quickly you can get to evil and i grok the world where we thought the germans and japanese, world war two, were the evil. to find out that we don't fight wars any was very traumatic. i am wondering if you feel, from your reporting from vietnam, including my lai, and the iraqi invasion and its aftermath, do

you believe yourjournalism has made a difference? sure. absolutely. i am not walking around as if i am out 0lympus brushing so from my mental because i am working hard, of course it did,i because i am working hard, of course it did, iam because i am working hard, of course it did, i am aware of that. also, there are things it didn't do. it didn't end vietnam's war, it doesn't end of the brutality in combat. could argue lessons learned in vietnam's were quickly forgotten, one reason why the united dates found itself invading iraqi and the 2000th. you could argue that things like the surveillance of the intelligence agencies in the 19705, that didn't teach america very month, much because what, look what happened in the last decade with edward snowden. you could say that actually, the work you have done over 50 yea r5 actually, the work you have done over 50 years hasn't really made any difference at all. you can certainly say this, that the notion of

american general presidents learning from history, come on, give me a break. i don't understand why every general that gets to be the chairman of thejoint chiefs general that gets to be the chairman of the joint chiefs doesn't remember how bad war can be. you can say that but i would punch you if you did and meant it, of course it made a difference and of course journalism i5 difference and of course journalism is very port and —— important. difference and of course journalism is very port and —— importantm difference and of course journalism is very port and -- important. it is very important that journalists is very port and -- important. it is very important thatjournali5t5 it right and you think your credibility was fundamentally undermined by the time she got things wrong? i could li5t time she got things wrong? i could list a few of them. believing in the papers that reported to show that marilyn monroe wa5 blackmailing jfk, it wasn't true but he believed tho5e papers were real. you accuse the us amba55ador papers were real. you accuse the us ambassador in chile without knowing about a cia plot to topple the leader. that was untrue and you had to apologise for it. 0bama would say that you completely misconstrued the killing of some of them live in ——

05ama bin leyden, his white house saying that you wrote a nonsense about that. your critical —— your credibility is an issue too. it is funny you say that. i believed the papers. i am funny you say that. i believed the papers. iam held funny you say that. i believed the papers. i am held to a very high standard. and you have let yourself down sometimes. in that case i would say to you that the job of a investigative reporter is always to be open—minded. i believed in them and found out they were fake copy,, italy 5ix and found out they were fake copy,, italy six or seven months but i believe in them. i chased and worked ha rd believe in them. i chased and worked hard but they weren't good. they never showed up anywhere. you are hone5t never showed up anywhere. you are honest about that, why haven't you been honest, for example, about this story to put in the london review of books about the assassination of 05ama bin leyden. all sorts of evil in the military said that seymuor her5ch got that plain wrong. —— bin laden. they are wrong. i am not

afraid to go one—on—one with the president. today we have a problem because we have the study for our new cycle where the white house can dominate. you think there is a cri5i5 dominate. you think there is a crisis in journalism today? absolutely. there is fake news everywhere. fake news is a term people used to disrespect new5 everywhere. fake news is a term people used to disrespect news they don't like. now you have the new york times and the washington post, excellent newspapers, who had it wrong on the election and both had to write letters of apologyjust wrong on the election and both had to write letters of apology just as they did about the iraqis on the weapons of mass destruction to back. they had to write an apology to its reader5 they had to write an apology to its readers and we led you to think she was going to win the whole time and we had a wrong. we also had information that they 5uppre55ed about the polling and didn't acknowledge all of that. in a way, you are intriguing because you have 5een you are intriguing because you have seen through much of your life to conclude that all president like, all deceived, and here we have a

president, donald trump, accused by many in the so—called mainstream media of telling more lies, more consistently than any president we have known in history and yet you 5een have known in history and yet you seen to be saying that 0bama wa5 have known in history and yet you seen to be saying that 0bama was a wire, clinton was a liar, bush senior wa5 wire, clinton was a liar, bush senior was a liar. you see anything different today and particular in relation to this president and the media? i think there is, look on it would have been betterfor an awful lot of people in america if trump had not been elected. what i am getting at is that under the trump administration, with donald trump's particulate take on the media, do you think the relationship between power, particularly in washington, and the media is more toxic now than it has ever been? yes, of course. is not a question, it is a fact. is terribly toxic. i also think, in a

funny way, he is a circuit reiko. he i5 funny way, he is a circuit reiko. he is completely different. —— circuit breaker. that does not mean he is a junkyard dog and doesn't read or know anything. he is a circuit breaker and it is sort of interesting. i didn't vote to him, it doesn't matter who i voted for, i wouldn't in a million years but now that we have him as president and i think the hostility towards him verges think the hostility towards him verges on think the hostility towards him verges on insat 30 —— insanity in the major newspapers, they are unable to look at anything in an objective way. we have fox news who look5 objective way. we have fox news who looks at the press putting it mildly, and we have the new york time5 mildly, and we have the new york times and washington post i think going way over, there is nothing he can do make anybody happy. going way over, there is nothing he can do make anybody happym going way over, there is nothing he can do make anybody happy. it seems like various media outlets in the united dates they take sides. it is all parti5an united dates they take sides. it is all pa rti5an and united dates they take sides. it is all parti5an and i5 united dates they take sides. it is all parti5an and is all opinion and polemic rather than fact —ba5ed, evidence —ba5ed. you still believe,

in truth, in an objective truth in journalism? —— do you. in truth, in an objective truth in journalism? -- do you. i had ajob, one of my editors and the times asked me to come right about bingham in eight 1972. —— vietnam's. i sat, writing the story and he would walk into the newsroom behind me and give mea rub, into the newsroom behind me and give me a rub, like the bill murray robert. and he would say how is my little commie today and he would say what you have in the? it was very conservative. —— he was. forget the politics, i don't check my dentist to check whether he is conservative or not i want a good denti5t. he knew that even though i was an open democrat i was not going to write a story to the best of my ability that wasn't true and he could always ask me andi wasn't true and he could always ask me and i would always tell him the sources. that is one of the things, even at the london review, the same checking went on at the new yorker.

the editors know for whom i write and so the editors know for whom i write and 5oi the editors know for whom i write and so i say when the london review i5 and so i say when the london review is write a 10,000 word story going against everything that has been set from the white house about the killing of 05ama bin london. —— said. —— bin laden. they have checked that as hard as any other story in the world. you still believe in fact checking. yes or no because i want to finish. if you we re because i want to finish. if you were setting out today, given the climate we have described in journalism today, would you still wa nt to journalism today, would you still want to be a journalist in this 20 47 digital, fake news era that we live in today? —— 40 47. —— 20 47. -- 2/47. i would want to be an editor. some people at the bbc are having a lot of fun people at the bbc are having a lot offun and people at the bbc are having a lot of fun and are working hard. i would wa nt to of fun and are working hard. i would want to push myself to be an editor 5oi want to push myself to be an editor so i could change things as it is all. it is not good. it is just not good, it is toxic, a5

all. it is not good. it is just not good, it is toxic, as you say. i hadn't thought of that word. it is toxic. we have to let the guy, let my president 5ee toxic. we have to let the guy, let my president see the fellow wacko in north korea, who knows? you just don't know. the hostility against everything he says is all a little over the top. i don't like him, i don't want him as president, but so what? i wish the press to get out a little more. we have to end it there. seymour her5ch, thank you for being on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. 14 degrees yesterday in london. 40mm of rain in northern ireland. those were the contrasts we had. together with the rain in the west,

we also had some quite strong wind5 as well. now, the rain is going to be moving, it starts as rain over the next few days but then it turns colder. we get an easterly wind ju5t in time for the weekend. that's when it really feels cold. we may get some snow showers, mainly for england and wales. this is where we are, though, at the moment. thi5 weather front here is moving its way a bit further north and east across the uk. stronger wind5 ahead of that weather front, lighter wind5 developing further south, and we should get some 5un5hine as well. still some rain, though, for northern ireland on thursday morning and that moves through the midlands away from the south—east of england, heading towards 5outhern scotland and northern england. perhaps a bit of wintrine55 over the mountains. sun5hine to the south and we get some sharp 5howers. possibly thundery. 12 or 13 degrees. north of that band of rain it is quite a bit colder, but the cold day is yet to arrive. we'll see that rain turn to sleet and snow over the higher ground overnight in scotland. still some rain for the north—east

of england and we could still see some sharp bands of showers pushing up across england and wales towards northern ireland. again, no frost i think early on friday morning. that wet weather in scotland increasingly wintry over the high ground. some heavy, perhaps thundery showers in a band moving across northern england, running into the back of that wet weather and bringing more rain to northern ireland. heavy showers again developing to the south where we'll get 5un5hine. contrasting temperatures again north and south across the uk. over the weekend, we all get into the same boat. high pressure blocking things off acro55 scandinavia and around it we pick up an easterly wind. there will be a significant windchill as well, especially across england and wales, where we'll have the strongest of the wind. perhaps not too many snow showers, actually, on saturday. there could be some on friday night, but most places will be dry on saturday. you will notice, however, the temperatures significantly lower. remember 12 or 13, perhaps, across the south on friday. four or five at best, and further north one or two celsius.

that area of high pressure still around the northern part of the uk on saturday. stronger winds to the south. we could get as spell of snow overnight and especially near channel, the southernmost counties of england. that pulls through and then we'll probably find a few more snow showers, again more likely across england and wales. most of scotland and northern ireland will be dry and it is not quite as windy here but it's still going to be cold on sunday, colder than it should be. hello. this is the briefing. i'm david eades. 0ur hello. this is the briefing. i'm david eades. our top story: the us backs britain as it condemns last week's nerve agent attack in the uk as "a russian crime". at the united nations, its ambassador demands action. the credibility of this council will not survive if we fail to hold russia accountable. plastic bottles, plastic drinks.

ten plastic particles found per litre amid growing concerns over many brands of bottled water. and a moment of truth for uk schoolchildren. how the bbc‘s helping them discern fake news from fact. and in business, thejourney from pundit to policymaker. trump picks cnbc‘s larry kudlow as his new economic adviser. but will the president tune in to his free market views,