moscow for poisoning the former russian spy sergei skripal and his daughter yulia in the english city of salisbury last month. the russian ambassador to the united nations said the uk was playing with fire and would be sorry. a court in south korea is expected to deliver its verdict later on the former president, park geun—hye, who was forced from office in a corruption scandal last year. prosecutors are seeking a 30—year prison term and a fine equivalent to more than $100 million. the doctor at the head of the us public health system says more americans need to carry a drug that can reverse opioid overdoses. surgeon generaljerome adams said 115 americans die from an overdose every day, and the drug epidemic is now killing more people than the hiv crisis did at its peak. those were the headlines. now on bbc news it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen

sackur. the best art helps us to see and feel in new ways. it can challenge and provoke. my guest today has made it his mission to test the boundaries of what we think of as art. michael rakowitz uses sculpture, installation, and site specific experience to transmit a vision which transmits his iraqi jewish heritage and preoccupations which range from wall to family to food. he has won plaudits around the world. what does his work tell us about the state we are reading? —— we are in?

michael rakowitz, we are in? michael ra kowitz, welcome we are in? michael rakowitz, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen, thanks to having the. is a great pleasure to having the. is a great pleasure to have you. it seems to me, in your work there is a duality. you are an american kid, an american man, yet you seem intensely conscious of your heritage that comes, certainly from your grandmother's site, from iraq. why is that duality so important to you? it became important when it went from being something that was so went from being something that was so normal to something that seemed so so normal to something that seemed so paradoxicalfor so normal to something that seemed so paradoxical for people. so normal to something that seemed so paradoxicalfor people. i grew up ina so paradoxicalfor people. i grew up in a house where my grandmother and my grandfather on my mum's side and my grandfather on my mum's side and my mum had come from iraq via bombay

to the united states in 1946, and i grew up in a house where it wasn't at all odd to hear my mother and my grandmother talking in arabic in the kitchen and to smell the spices that we re kitchen and to smell the spices that were being used when they were making food. and to have that emanate into the living room where, sometimes there were family covered —— gatherings, where there were songs coming from the iraqi jewish community, the musicians werejewish and the singers were coming from the islamic community. it was like a bridge that i did not realise i was hearing, it sounded so normal, it felt so normal. and then by the time i was 16 or 17 years old i was more aware of who i was as a person in the world and where politics and

when the drums started to beat towards a war in 1991, became acutely aware of the fact that the place my grandparents fled from was about to be bombed by the place they fret —— latu. about to be bombed by the place they fret -- latu. that is a crucial experience for you. when iraq became the enemy. saddam hussein became a hate figure for all of america. the country you had known through your grandparents and your mum, heritage, the language, the food, all these positive warm feelings, suddenly defined to most americans as hateful and frightening. my mother saw that happening right in front of us. i remember seeing the first live real—time images of iraq that i have ever seen real—time images of iraq that i have ever seen in my life, which were green tinted, coming from the night vision cnn. there were pictures of buildings that were being blown to bits that i was never going to be able to visit. as we were watching this, my mother turned to my

brothers and i am sad "you know there are no iraqi restaurant in new york?" it was like the riddle of these things. she was pointing out that iraq was not visible in the us beyond oil and war. will get to a rocky restaurant in new york later. one of your installations was all about food and connections between food and culture and art —— iraqi restau ra nts. food and culture and art —— iraqi restaurants. as you talk about those memories of your grandparents and your mum, you are positing it in terms of the arabic language, a rich culture and food, you are not talking about jewishness. culture and food, you are not talking aboutjewishness. and yet they were iraqi talking aboutjewishness. and yet they were iraquews. with talking aboutjewishness. and yet they were iraqi jews. with a talking aboutjewishness. and yet they were iraquews. with a more rooted in that? it was one of those periods of time where i try to wield not in this —— nostalgia of what i

do, buta not in this —— nostalgia of what i do, but a blueprint of how things can be going forward. it wasn't so long ago. they always talk about how iraq, how baghdad was kind of like a jewish city in the 1930s and 19405 and jewish city in the 19305 and 19405 and you even had the city shutting down on friday before sunset because of the sabbath. and that kind of relationship between people, regardless of faith, wa5 relationship between people, regardless of faith, was something that i think a lot of iraqis, whether they would jewish or mu5lim 01’ whether they would jewish or mu5lim or christian dissenter really held dear. and nationalist programmes can complicate that. that notion of an ancient culture where people could come together and share experience, it is very central to a loss of your work. i want to pass forward from your memories of childhood and upbringing to the reason you are in the uk, in london right now, to

unveil the spectacular public artwork which has perhaps the most prominent public art place in all of the country. we can see an image of it. it is a recreation of a mythical syrian half man half will all live in. it is a mythical creature. you have been given that spot on trafalgar square on the plinth. tell me the origins of this piece of work. it is ancient mythical origins yet it is something you have made out of trash. exactly. the project i5 out of trash. exactly. the project is an extension of one i began about 12 years ago in my studio, with my a55istance, which endeavoured to reconstruct the 7000 artefact5 that are listed as missing or stolen or status unknown after the looting of the iraq mu5eum status unknown after the looting of the iraq museum in 2003. i enlisted

be detritu5 or cultural visibility of arab communities around the united states where beyond oil and war wed 5ee united states where beyond oil and war wed see it, you sit on the food packaging. it is in arabic and english. you sit in the arab and engli5h new5paper5 which are given away to freak to the refugees. that extraordinary thing, that lama55u, i5 extraordinary thing, that lama55u, is made of some miklik 10,500 extraordinary thing, that lama55u, is made of some miklik10,500 old ca n5 is made of some miklik10,500 old cans of date 5yrup. is made of some miklik10,500 old cans of date syrup. exactly. it had to do with reopening my grandfather's import export business will survey found that iraqi dates are the best in the world. there are 600 different baryte5. the date palm suffered alongside the people in the culture. at the end of the air run iraq war, what was a 30 million 5trong date palm industry throughout the country was reduced to about half that. at the end of the iraq war the estimates were around 3

million. is this artwork optimistic to you, in a sense you could be saying to the world ‘5 so—called islamic states or other extreme nihilist organisations cannot destroy the idea behind these extraordinary artefact5. you could be saying that or you could be saying something rather bleak, saying something rather bleak, saying they are something so ancient and alli saying they are something so ancient and all i can put forward now is a memory of it. a ghost of it made out of trash. is it optimi5tic or is it bleak? it comes back to food. iraqi food is so great because it is sweet and sour. if you make something sour white you want to astute of the 5weet white you want to astute of the sweet and vice—ver5a. so things are held in tension —— sour what you wa nt held in tension —— sour what you want your stupid to be sweet. you 5ee want your stupid to be sweet. you see people now, like this wonderful

young artist in the north of iraq who started to construct artefact5 also from pla5ter after dae5h 5ta rted to destroy also from pla5ter after dae5h started to destroy things. this is a good intention, a good pearl5 to wa nt to good intention, a good pearl5 to want to rebuild. i am saying that the past is the past —— a good impul5e. the artefact5 always peri5h alongside people. i wonder if there was some anger in you when, for example, the international media made such a storm over the destruction of the wonderful remains in —— palmyra, nineveh a5 destruction of the wonderful remains in —— palmyra, nineveh as well, of course. any time one of the most hi5toric pieces or places wa5 destroyed or defiled, there was a storm of outrage which seem to, in a 5en5e, storm of outrage which seem to, in a sense, get under the skin of people

more than the daily toll of deaths of human beings. wa5 more than the daily toll of deaths of human beings. was that angry new? initially, when i started this long—term project back in 2006 to try to reconstruct things, it was about a certain kind of anger that you can walk through galleries in new york and not know that we were living in a war culture. i was wondering when the outrage around lost iraqi artefact5 would turn into outrage around lost iraqi live5. at the same time, i am not a psychologist, but i do wonder where people put their morning. i wonder where they put their outrage into 5ymbolic things. art of an is about the kind of indirect reference to something we are all fairly together. what was useful about the outrage around the looting of the iraq mu5eum wa5 outrage around the looting of the iraq mu5eum was that it did notjust locali5e the problem, it wasn't an iraqi tragedy, it was an iraqi

tragedy, but it was also a human tragedy. thi5 tragedy, but it was also a human tragedy. this was our cultural heritage that were 5hared. you can put people on the track towards thinking that way, that it is something share, then there are all the5e something share, then there are all these other opportunities about sharing this sense of loss in other directions. will you ever finished this mammoth project of yours? the thing you are calling the invisible enemy should not exist, will you ever get that garden, you are only on about 800 of 8000? it will outlive me and my studio. it shows that history cannot be fully reconstructed. you cannot do it without everyone being involved in it. there is a community that has arisen, like they said, people who talk about 3—d printing and there are conversations to be had there, but i also don't want it to be 5imply something that is fetishising only the artefact5, okoli can just

rebuild palmyra. like you said earlier, you can't bring the amazing archaeologist that protected... he was 82 yea r5 archaeologist that protected... he was 82 years old is and was actually executed by danish on the site of his own pride and joy —— dae5h. executed by danish on the site of his own pride and joy -- daesh. he would not give up the location of certain items or certain people. thi5 certain items or certain people. this is somebody who understood what was happening. when broxburn, people buy. we have seen that throughout history. i want to widen this out now. “— history. i want to widen this out now. —— when the books are burned, people burn. that formative experience you had watching the first iraq warand experience you had watching the first iraq war and then watching the second iraq war on fault with the us occupying iraq after 2003, has that turns you into an anti—war artist?|j don't turns you into an anti—war artist?” don't think i was ever a pro— war

artist... would you now say it is one of your driving forces to deliver messages through your art which are about, i don't want to put word5 which are about, i don't want to put words in your mouth, about the negative impacts of war?” words in your mouth, about the negative impacts of war? i think so. it is not just negative impacts of war? i think so. it is notjust that i do with the work. i think they do a lot of things hopefully with the work. if i think about my long—term engagements with iraqi5 think about my long—term engagements with iraqis and iraq war veterans backin with iraqis and iraq war veterans back in the united states, it is looking at the way in which both the soldier and the refugee experience the dehumanisation of that experience of combat and occupation. yeah, you have these extraordinary, i don't know what to call them and will be interesting to know what you call them, you could not call them pieces of art, they are more experiential. you have this one project in chicago where you have iraqi5 who have fled from iraq for all the reasons we have just

discussed, they are cook5 all the reasons we have just discussed, they are cooks and chefs, they have food, they also have helping them us military veterans who fought in iraq and they are the sous who fought in iraq and they are the 5ou5 chefs and the waiters. the food i5 iraqi and it is delivered to people in chicago. fir5t i5 iraqi and it is delivered to people in chicago. first of all, thatis people in chicago. first of all, that is fascinating, but is it art? well, i am le55 well, i am less interested in what people call things. to me, it is art because it exists in this environment of opportunity. you do not want to open up a restaurant and call it enemy kitchen but i think that restaurant can be called at. point is, it do you think you want people to go there because they want the food to treat it as a restaurant or kitchen, or do you want to go there because he wanted to be open toa there because he wanted to be open to a sort of artistic, 5en5ory, e55ential experience that is much wider thanju5t

e55ential experience that is much wider than just food? —— art. e55ential experience that is much wider thanjust food? -- art. of course. what has been incredible i5 that we have had folk5 course. what has been incredible i5 that we have had folks have come up to this food truckjust expecting the kind of biased language. we are realising that the person who is 5peaking realising that the person who is speaking to them is speaking in engli5h speaking to them is speaking in english and then the person in the backi5 english and then the person in the back is yelling at somebody else in arabic and they start to realise that in this close proximity, you have perceived enemie5 that in this close proximity, you have perceived enemies on both sides of the conflict. and bring it back to our conversation, i believe they are using some of your grandmother's recipes? they are, there is a distribution. we are casting a wide net now. kurdish recipes, assyrian recipes, but all within what was iraq. definitely, and getting the 5ense iraq. definitely, and getting the sense with you that art and food are very much mixed together. of course. becau5e not just very much mixed together. of course. becau5e notjust that very much mixed together. of course. becau5e not just that fascinating experiential art but there is this

extraordinary thing in new york where he took over a rather po5h restau ra nt where he took over a rather po5h restaurant for a while, actually i think maybe you are still doing it from time to time. are you? no, no. 0k, from time to time. are you? no, no. ok, so you took over the po5h restau ra nt. ok, so you took over the po5h restaurant. he served iraqi food, not only that be served it on plates you have specifically requisitioned to ebay from saddam hussein's family household. in fact, they were such a pa rt household. in fact, they were such a part of the saddam hussein story that then the iraqi government wa nted that then the iraqi government wanted them back. amazing. is what is about food that speaks to you in such a broadway, in that an artistic, experiential way? such a broadway, in that an artistic, experientialway? well, just in point is interesting, in answering your question, i was working at a restaurant in park avenue and the chef, what we did with that project was really kind of look at the way that any kind of happens. the menu is presented to

you almost like, almost like the cards ina you almost like, almost like the cards in a museum now that tells you exactly what kind of pigment is used and so, the menu tells you where your rugelach comes from. it tells your rugelach comes from. it tells you where your meat is harvested. it makes you feel good, and i wanted to makes you feel good, and i wanted to make the dyna filled out. iraqi date syrup make the dyna filled out. iraqi date syrup in the united states has not been labelled as coming from iraq for yea rs been labelled as coming from iraq for years because it has been impossible to get it to customers without offence, and so it says product of lebanon or weirdly enough, product of netherlands, we have never seen enough, product of netherlands, we have never seen a enough, product of netherlands, we have never seen a daytime grow. and to be able to actually reveal on the menu that there was a dish that was made with iraqi dates europe was pa rt made with iraqi dates europe was part of it, so the mere came back not only yes, the culinary experience being something artistic. —— syrup. and ifeel like when i am making food, and the sculptor but it

was also about taking that kind of way of enticing the viewer, of enticing the reader. there is a playfulness in europe, a sort of provocative nurse and the playfulness and it works on many different levels. i just wonder, playfulness and it works on many different levels. ijust wonder, and i want to bring in a second image. i just wonder sometimes if you are at risk of taking that playfulness to a place where can be seen as the suspect. shawl. this image is taken from something that i think it put ona from something that i think it put on a while ago. —— sure. a show that in many ways made comments on saddam hussein's rule in iraq and this symbol of his power in iraq, he had his own arms and hands cast in bronze fork this sort of victory at, which of course the real one, which i have walked on in baghdad, it had these vast, monumental sabres in both hands. you, with your

playfulness, have turned it into light sabres from star wars. yes. now, some might look at that and say given everything we know about saddam hussein's iraq, that is the suspect. sure, sure. i know thati work with difficult material from time to time and to be honest, this is the most uncomfortable sculpture i have ever made because not because of what i used to make it, but because the original is also just so ha rd because the original is also just so hard for me to get down with. it is his hands blown up 40 times, it is using the melted down metals from ignitions, from the iranians that, the iraqis... it is the personification of his tyranny really. yes, it is, and it is narcissism. these kinds of monuments exist everywhere but when i was on ebay and what really brought me to ebay and what really brought me to ebay first was the fact that

mesopotamian artefacts were showing a there after the looting, i want to know what iraq did not want that on one of the things i found online was a helmet that was being sold by a member of the us armed forces that was based in mosul, in the 101st airborne division, that was cast directly from darth vader, darth vader's helmet and it belonged to saddam hussein's army. they really use these. saddam hussein and uday we re use these. saddam hussein and uday were huge fans, not all of the research that i did i found were huge fans, not all of the research that i did ifound out were huge fans, not all of the research that i did i found out that saddam hussein was a huge fan of an art collector, and an artist named boris designed a poster of darth vader holding two sabres above his head. it is a clunky story that

someone head. it is a clunky story that someone has got the talent because it is true. i have interviewed a lot of artists on hardtalk that i have never interviewed one who intrigues me in the way that you do because most artist is clearly have a commercial impetus towards most of their work, they end up with a thing that can be put in a gallery, bought and sold, moved around the world and it can be invested with value, but so it can be invested with value, but so much of what you create cannot really sit in any of those categories. for example, we are talking about the restaurant in new york or the enemy kitchen in chicago. these are experiences but they only exist in their own time and place, you cannot sell them. no. you could not put them up for auction at sotheby‘s, it cannot really make a living out of them. are you a commercial artist will not? i would not consider myself one, no. it is not the place that i come from. i come from working in public place, i love working in public place, i love working in public place, i love working in public place, the city, working with

architecture and with the people living inside those buildings. however, there is a kind of component to my projects that really does look not at the market per se, but at the way that market emerge as a sight specific place. so it was the existence of an antiquities market that allowed for the iraq museum to be listed in the first place and for a lot of people, those a rtefa cts were place and for a lot of people, those artefacts were the ticket out of the country. and so with that kind of market, being where it was, and thinking about the contemporary art market and the fact that those things do intersect sometimes, you go to most collectors's houses that collect contemporary art and they will have in antiquity, that they may or may not want to talk to about. that is an interesting take on the upmarket but i want to end by taking is back to the beginning, which was that discussion that you are so which was that discussion that you are so passionate about about iraq, family and memory. it amazes me that

despite your preoccupation with your heritage and what has given you, you have never been to iraq. why? well, my family left because they felt like they had to leave and they were heartbroken. but you could go now. i could go, of course, and that to me, i think about that all the time. i think about going back and having the privilege of the american passport, but over the past 12 yea rs, passport, but over the past 12 years, i have been working with lot of iraqi refugees as well in my projects and they cannot go back and they are in jordan, projects and they cannot go back and they are injordan, the united states, canada, and we his close relationships and in a way, if you like that distance has almost become like that distance has almost become like a material in my work. that they said to me, i will tell you how you are going to go back, we're going to go back and we're going to invite you to visit us. and that is how i would do it. and when you do

it, we want to to you again. but for now, michael ra kowitz, it, we want to to you again. but for now, michael rakowitz, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. i appreciated. —— appreciate it. hello. thursday always was set to be one of the best days of this week and so it proved and our weather watchers were very much out in force, probably encouraged by the fact that it was such a glorious day all the way from scotland to the south coast and across the irish sea and into northern ireland, but that's really rather cruel to use that particular picture to bring you the message that it will be on friday another glorious day for many parts of the british isles because, i'm afraid to say, that belfast

and indeed much of northern ireland, it won't be that way for you, and the seeds of the destruction of your glorious friday were there being sown on thursday with this veil of cloud moving in from the atlantic and as we get into the first part of friday, well, the rain will already be there, and how, across northern ireland, and it may already be flirting with the western side of scotland as well. but at least underneath that veil of cloud, it won't be such a cold start to friday in the west as it will be in the east because your skies will be that bit clearer. and it's still that sort of time of the year where if your skies are clear, the heat will dribble away and you'll start off with a pretty cool start to your day. there, the bigger picture, one of the benefits of having that low pressure out towards our west, is that on its eastern flank, we're sucking up all this mild air from the western part of the mediterranean and from iberia. so eventually, as you will see, our temperatures really will respond to that.

but, i'm afraid, out towards the west, there is no disguising the fact that once the rain has set in, it will probably keep on coming across northern and western parts of scotland. certainly for the greater part of the day for northern ireland and for the western fringes of wales. here, the temperatures may struggle, just about getting into double figures. but further towards the east, somebody is going to see 16 or 17 degrees somewhere across the south—eastern quarter. from friday into saturday, we'll push that initial pulse of rain away. but we've still got a linkage actually, that frontal system bringing the prospect of yet more rain, somewhere across central and eastern parts of the british isles in the first part of the day. i think northern ireland, central and southern parts of scotland, maybe the western fringes of wales and the south—west, could get away with a dry day. there is some uncertainty, but i think one of the things that we can say about the weekend is that the temperatures for many of us, because of that essentially southerly flow, will stay in double figures and again, there isjust this prospect on sunday of a little bit of rain for some, but many could well stay dry.

and, as i say, on the mild side. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. my name is mike embley. our top stories: "horrific and unsubsta ntiated." russia once again denies any involvement in the poisoning of a former spy and his daughter. south korea's ousted president awaits her fate. a court is due to deliver its verdict on corruption charges. tackling america's opioid crisis. the us surgeon general urges new measures to fight the deadly epidemic. and one of bollywood's favourite bad boys is behind bars. a court finds salman khan guilty of poaching.