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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  April 9, 2018 12:30am-1:01am BST

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i'm babita sharma with bbc world news. our top story: the un security council will meet in emergency session later to discuss the apparent chemical attack in syria. scores of civilians are reported to have been been killed. president trump has warned the syrian government that it would have a big price to pay for the atrocity. hungary's eurosceptic prime minister viktor orban has won sunday's parliamentary election, his fidesz party has won nearly 50% of the votes counted so far. and this video is trending on bbc.com. several hundred foreign amateurs have competed in the pyongyang marathon, but turnout was half that of last year. the annual race is part of celebrations marking north korean founder kim il—sung's birth in 1912. stay with bbc world news. arejust as the.
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are just as the. is just the past 12. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. -- it is —— it is just past the post 12. ——half past 12. the outside world tends to view scandinavia as a haven of prosperity, progressive politics and social liberalism, but look closer and you find a powerful strand of right—wing populism fuelled by a suspicion of immigration. my guest is sivjensen. norway's finance minister and the leader of the right—wing progress party, a partner in norway's coalition government for the past five years. how does populism work in a country rated one of the world's richest and happiest? sivjensen, welcome to hardtalk.
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think it very much of. labels are inevitable in politics, and i'd describe your party, the progress party in norway as right wing and populist. do you accept that? no, it is that a populist party, it is libertarian. we focus on free trade, market orientation, lower taxes, less state, individualfreedom. market orientation, lower taxes, less state, individual freedom. that is the origin of your party, but it seems to me in recent years increasingly, you and your party, have homed in on bell in a populist fashion on the issue of immigration. immigration is an important issue to my party, as it is in many countries in europe and that has to do with
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the fact that we have seen a lot of migration and to some extent it has been damaging into countries economies. what we have done in norway is that we have... it hasn't damaged your economy, you have one of, if not the strong as the economy in europe. it is good, it is doing well. it was hit by the oil price shockin well. it was hit by the oil price shock in 2014, that affected us very much and at the same time we had the flow of migration also to norway, which meant that we had to tighten the immigration policy and now we have control. so we have less people coming in to norway than before, so we can concentrate on integration, which is very important to secure economic growth. in that sense, you acknowledge that immigration has been a key plank of your platform. a very important part. in that way, commentators in norway and beyond
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the sea links between the shrink of your party and a rise of people like marine le pen in france, the afp in germany, which are hitting the same hot buttons when it comes to playing upon peoples fears of immigration. we don't play on people ‘s fears, we talk about the obvious, control on oui’ talk about the obvious, control on our borders and ensuring we have a better aggression policy, it ensures that when people arrive in norway and maybe need to live there for the rest of their lives, they need to learn the language, get the job and provide for themselves and their family. that is obvious. if you don't play up on people fears, why did you refer to the sneaking islamisation of the european society a few years ago? because it is true. islamisation of european society?” disagree with the label you have put on my party. we are libertarian but
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are also concerned about immigration, that is why we are taking the policy and it works in norway. if you reject the label populist but also that you play on people ‘s fears, how did you respond when your party ‘s colleague recently resigned as minister of justice, when she was a minister in the coalition before and was immigration minister shi said this "we are fully aware that there are wolves in sheep ‘s clothing, fundamentalist we're who hate our norwegian system are coming to exploit our boundless norwegian na ivete. exploit our boundless norwegian naivete. "and you say you don't play upon peoples fears? yes, this is something that takes place in the public debate every day. that is why we address this. you, like your colleagues, see immigrants as wolves in sheep ‘s clothing. colleagues, see immigrants as wolves in sheep 's clothing. the majority of immigrants living in norway are
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behaving very well. they are well integrated go bell, go to work every day and learn the language and take pa rt day and learn the language and take part in society. what we need to learn is that there are a people not integrated and we have our fair share of that, an increasing problem, especially if we want to make sure that we have sustainable economic growth also in the future. we will get to economic growth, but you are league two —— leader of the progress party because i need to stay with the immigration debate, because it is important in your country and europe. and also the uk. when you talk about sneaking islamisation, what percentage of norway's population is muslim?” really don't know. it is nearly 496. how can that be speaking islamisation? we have had increasing
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problems with radical islamic, many of us are actually taking part in controlling is in syria, so this is an increasing problem and some of these people are returning to their original country. they are presenting a threat to us and this is something we need to take seriously. we are talking about norway, not syria. 200,000 or so people who are muslims. are you suggesting to me that you see them as fundamentally a security threat, as fundamentally a security threat, a threat within your midst in norway? we have never said that. what is this wolf in sheep ‘s clothing? we have never said all muslims are a threat to norwegian society, what we have been addressing is radical islamic, an increasing problem to society and the rest of the western world and this is something to take seriously and to be very clear, if we
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politicians do not take part in these debates, that is more dangerous. debate has to be had, this is your contribution. this was on facebook more than one year ago. you talk about integration, which is say is very important. you say "we have a big challenge now, to integrate those who have permission to stay in norway, we have to make sure they respect norwegian values. it is not allowed to beat your children in norway, here we eat pork, drink alcohol, show our faces and would you must abide by these values, laws and regulations when you are in norway". are you suggesting that muslims in your country have a proclivity for eating children? what we are talking about are issues that people took that in public life. we have discussions on many of these issues every day. do you believe muslims beat their children in a way that non— muslims do not? no, i don't believe that.
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why this reference? the point is that we want to make sure that eve ryo ne that we want to make sure that everyone who wants to live in norway lives by a certain set of standards. that we can face each other, that we can talk to each other. that we can help each other and that we can take pa rt help each other and that we can take part in the same society. this code, iam sure, part in the same society. this code, i am sure, without a doubt, you do not believe that norwegians are required to eat pork or drink alcohol, but again, why it laid out those things as fundamental norwegian values when you know that the signal you are sending is that somehow muslims, who of course don't eat pork and many don't drink alcohol, cannot be proper norwegians? we have been very, very clear on that. as i said, not all muslims are a problem at all. as i said, most muslims living in norway are behaving very well and are well integrated and window they contribute a lot to our society. i
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still believe it is important for us to address issues concerning immigration, concerning radical islam and we will continue to do so. i believe your party, the progress party, is pushing for a ban on a full face veil, notjust in public —— across all public places in norway. the government has now put forward a proposition that concerns the education place. and you want to go further, just as you want to tighten immigration further. that is my party standards that we are very happy that we are now launching these changes that we are talking about. i wonder if it gives you pause for thought when you see the latest 0slo pollie ‘s report, recording a very serious significant increase in the number of reported hate crimes, they have increased a great deal and the police say the biggest increase we see is amongst women being insulted in the category of religion and most specifically, is alarmed. i wonder if you might
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see a link there between your parties preoccupation with ben in the full face veil and the fact that there is a very significant rise in hate crimes directed at muslims women. first of all, i should say that hate crime is not acceptable at all and it is very good that the police are reporting on this and that they do something about it. i think all norwegians should be very careful about this because hate crime is not acceptable whatsoever. you have had a bit of a political crisis in your party and in the coalition concerning the woman i mentioned earlier, the minister of justice, she, as i understand, was pushing for legislation that would give the authorities in norway the right to strip individuals suspected of being associated with terrorism, strip them of their rights to
quote
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norwegian citizenship without any judicial oversight or review. the labour party, the opposition, opposed her plan, she then posted on facebook a picture of masked men in military fatigues with ammunition and weapons and she said this, "labour thinks terrorist and weapons and she said this, " labour thinks terrorist rights and weapons and she said this, "labour thinks terrorist rights are more important than our nation ‘s security, please like and share. " what did you think of that? first of all, iam what did you think of that? first of all, i am glad she apologise for putting that post on facebook because it was over the top. that said, the proposal she referred to was the government's postal that did not pass parliament. no, because labour wouldn't accept it. they do not have them ability to have a joint majority by the themselves. it did not pass... she decided, as far as labour are concerned, they took a
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stand on what they considered to be an abuse on constitutional values in norway. this colleague of yours, in your party, basically said that labour was siding with terrorist we're. first of all, the proposal that you refer to was the government ‘s proposal. but the post she put out on facebook, she apologise, apologised for and i am glad because it was over the top. do you believe your party has room for people like her in it? yes, i do. so an apology is fine? many of our viewers and listeners might not remember, but in 2011, a norwegian terrorist attack a youth camp, a labour party youth camp and killed dozens of young people. so the labour party is particularly sensitive to accusations that it is the terrorist‘s friend and be training norwegian values. i am wondering what she would have given a say,
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cassette for you to say to her you are not longer acceptable in our party. first of all, the terrorist attack that hit norway was terrible and the government has spent a lot of time securing our society after that. i think that has been very important for us to do. secondly, i think it is a good thing for any politician, if you go wrong, if you say something that you shouldn't, that you have the ability to apologise for it. i think that is actually something that more politicians should do and i am glad she did. that is why we have moved on, but she resigned and a new minister ofjustice was actually appointed yesterday. one more word on this and i will move on the. do you see her coming back into the norwegian government? yes, in the future, yes i can. she is actually a very, very good politician with a brilliant future ahead of her. let's talk about norway and the eu. there
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is much discussion of it because you are not in the european union you are not in the european union you are in the european economic area, which gives you full access to the single market and customs union. it comes at a price because you have to pay into the eu and you have to abide by roughly three quarters of eu rules and regulations. a fundamental part of your economy is governed from brussels. do you, in the progress party, think that is a sustainable status quo for norway? in favour of the amendments, we are in favour of the amendments, we are in favour of the amendments, we are in favour of moving towards eu. we have had two referendums on both times, the population said no to moving into the eu. the eu has very broad support in norway because the
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european market is the most important market in norway. european market is the most important market in norwaym european market is the most important market in norway. is that fundamentally antidemocratic? because many of the fundamental laws that govern the way the norwegian economy were our set in brussels and you have no voice in setting those rules and regulations. well, it is true that our voice has been weaker than what it would have been if we had sat at the table but that said, we have more flexibility without being a member and we have more flexibility without being a memberand if we have more flexibility without being a member and if we were a member, but the eu agreement has a lot of support in norway, also in the parliament. huge majority is in favour of it, it serves us well, especially since it gives us access to the single market, which is very important for the norwegian economies. it is interesting in britain to look at norway because we of course took a decision to a referendum to pursue the track of tracks that. yes. and brexiters going to happen according to the government, now there is discussion about whether we should pursue the
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norway model. —— brexiteers. this is what your foreign minister said, she said be careful because our type of connection with the eu is going to be difficult for britain because then brussels will decide without then brussels will decide without the brits being able to participate in the decision—making process. from your perspective, you just said we area your perspective, you just said we are a small country. do you think that the kind of deal that you have with eu would be appropriate?” that the kind of deal that you have with eu would be appropriate? i do not think i should give advice on how the results of brexit should be for the how the results of brexit should be forthe uk, how the results of brexit should be for the uk, this is something that you have to negotiate with the eu side and find your solution to it. i think our experience with the agreement since 1994 has been very good, there is of course, from time to time we had debates also in our country on making certain changes to the agreement and so forth, but the overall picture is that it serves us well, very well. it would be a big
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problem for you if britain does what some call the harm brexit, that is leave the eu ultimately without a full—fledged trade deal and without agreeing to participate in the single market and in the customs union. in that case, norway, which has britain as its biggest trading partner, would be in a very difficult place, wouldn't it? let me say, the bilateral relationship between norway and the u.k.'s excellent and it will be, no matter what happens with brexit deal. —— and the uk is. you do not quite know that because you do not know what the trading relationship with the uk and eu will be and you are governed by what the eu decides do. yeah, of course we follow the ongoing negotiations on the side with interest, of course. but i think the norwegian relationship with eu side will not change with brexit, and our relationship to the uk will not
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change, except the fact that we need to some formalities through legislation. we need to have more bilateral agreements between the two countries and so forth, but i am very, very sure that we will be able to sit down and negotiate that. what britain gets a more favourable deal with the eu then you have got? britain perhaps is required to pay in less or britain has more freedom to operate outside the rules of the eu than you do, and yet gets the advantages, most at least of the advantages, most at least of the advantages of fiction as trade with the european union? that move norway and the want to renegotiate its own deal with the european union?” think this is not the time to speculate in that. i think first will have to see the outcome of the ongoing negotiations. buti will have to see the outcome of the ongoing negotiations. but i can say that we are very happy with the agreement that we have because it serves us agreement that we have because it serves us well, and then we are concerned with, with solving the
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aftermath that needs to be resolved between us bilaterally after brexit, and i'm sure that we are perfectly to do so. we have already started discussions... you have said that high brexit will affect norway dramatically, as much as any eu state. there is a sense of alarm building in norway, is there not?” think... what we need to do is the need to just accept the outcome of the negotiations between the uk and eu. that is nothing that we can do anything about, but i think that this can be resolved and i am sure that there will be a good result when it comes, when we see the result in the end. before the end, i would like to ask you something else, are directly responsible, you are, as foreign ministerfor overseeing government the sovereign wealth fund, the massive trillion
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dollar oilfund that wealth fund, the massive trillion dollar oil fund that norway and has developed and nurtured over many yea rs. last year developed and nurtured over many years. last year was pretty unusual because i think it was the first year that actually, you outflows from the fund exceeded the new money coming into the fund. now, your opponents in norway say that there is profligacy in the finance ministry, that you are overspending this very important, valuable legacy for norway's children's futures. well, that is not entirely correct. well, that is not entirely correct. we have a 3% spending all that we have been way below ever since we took office but it is true, for the last couple of years we've had an expansionary fiscal policy to get us through the aftermath of the drop in oil prices. now, we see our economy picking up. the growth is above trend, already this year and also next year. unemployment has come down, employment is increasing. so all figures show that it has been
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good for us. well, the leader of the 0pposition labour party says it is a result, this what he calls profligacy is a result of a right—wing populist party in government, they have overspent our children's savings giving tax cuts to the wealthy norwegians living today. he also lost the elections, but let me say the fund is growing every day, getting bigger and bigger and we have put aside a lot of money for future generations at the same time as we invest in future growth today by lowering taxes, investing in infrastructure, investing in research and development, education, i think those are the most important areas to invest in and we do that within the sound framework of the spending will. norway's wealth is built on an amazing reserves of oil and gas. it is very striking therefore that many in your country are now talking about the need to divest the sovereign wealth fund from investments in oil and gas. do you favour that? well, we just had a proposition that we are considering
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for the time being, but i think... do you favourite? you a finance minister, it is rather important to know what you think. we're looking into that, we have not made any decisions on that but what we are doing is the fund. it is invested globally, it is a diversified fund. we are in several thousand companies globally, in many different areas and that is how we need to invest the fund. i suppose it raises a question though, norway, built on oil and gas to a certain extent. in the long run, the world economy is trying to wean itself off fossil fuels. is that in the long—term present a fundamental challenge for norway? no comment i think norway will continue to be in and gas reducerfor many, will continue to be in and gas reducer for many, many decades. do you? yes, we will. you think that will happen? even though the world is committed to decarbonisation? but we also need to reorient our economy, we need to invest in order
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because we experience very clearly what could happen after the oil has dropped in 2014. we needed to diversify our economy and that is what we're doing to the time being we will still be in oil and gas producer decades to come, but at a lower speed than we have been for decades behind us. and we have known this for a long time but this is an important industry to norway and we are proud of it, and it is also producing quite well, i would say. always, sivjensen, we have to end there. but thank you very much for being a hardtalk. and she very much indeed. —— on. —— thank you very much. hello.
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for much of the week ahead, our air is coming from the east but don't worry, it doesn't look particularly cold, as we'll see. not so much sunshine in the week ahead as we enjoyed in cornwall, though, on sunday. it looked pretty nice too in inverness, broken cloud and sunny spells. scotland and northern ireland will see the best of the sunny spells as we go on through monday. some fog around to start the day, it could be quite dense in places, that gradually clearing. through east anglia and south—east england, a lot of cloud here, patchy rain and drizzle. 0n through the day, thatjust shunts a bit further west towards the midlands, maybe parts of wales late in the day, and some spots in south—east england. scotland, a few showers developing. not everybody will catch one. if you do, it could be on the heavy side. temperatures for the most part around ten to 14 degrees, could be quite misty and murky throughout the day.
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some eastern coastal parts of northern ireland, some spots on the north sea coast as well. an area of rain expands to cover more of england, parts of wales, some darker blue, some heavy bursts developing as well as we go into tuesday morning. as monday begins, it will be fairly chilly. less so on tuesday morning. frosty, so not a worry as we go through this week. as we look at the big picture for tuesday, low pressure to the south of us. it's around that spiralling we see some wet weather systems occasionally, like the one we start off with on tuesday. high pressure in scandinavia. the flow of air means it is an easterly flow coming into the uk but look at the colours here, they're not baltic blue, the air‘s not coming from siberia, actually the eastern mediterranean so it's certainly not cold there. so as we go through the week, temperatures for many of us will be at or slightly above average, but there is one significant exception with cold air coming across the north sea, the north sea coast, it will be chilly, single figure temperatures. some rain at times this week, not all the time. some drier and even sunnier
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moments to be enjoyed too. this is how tuesday is shaping up. we start off with that wet weather system, with heavier bursts of rain, of rain, slowly moving away from england and wales towards parts of scotland. the north—west of scotland holding onto the fine weather for the longest. some sunny spells, there could be some heavy and maybe thundery showers into parts of england, especially south—west england and wales through the day. as we go on to the week, cloud, single figures. elsewhere, temperatures could be as high as 17 degrees. drier, brighter weather at times as we go through this week, and it looks like a pretty decent wet week to come here in north—west scotland. bye— bye. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore, the headlines: western leaders express outrage at a suspected chemical weapons attack in syria — the un security council is to meet later. as a us aircraft carrier sails
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into the south china sea — we report on washington's growing concern over beijing's growing naval power. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: the self—styled defender of christian culture viktor 0rban is set for a landslide victory in hungary's general election. and a marathon like no other — runners from around the world compete on the streets of pyongyang.
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