hello, it's nine o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. welcome to the programme today, we'll bring you a shocking story that many of you will find upsetting. we're talking to a mother who wants to raise awareness of children sexually abusing other children. it's after, she says, her son was raped by another boy on a play date in his own home. i thought, if i don't know about this, then it must mean lots of other people are ignorant to it, that there is a risk. ijust want more awareness. you can hear the mum's interview at a quarter past nine. alfie evans‘ dad says he's meeting doctors later today to discuss taking the terminally ill toddler home. all i ask now is this meeting to be a positive one. and i hope to have alfie to be home within a day. if the meeting doesn't go well today, i will go back to court. we'll have the latest from outside the hospital in liverpool. a0 companies who produce the vast

majority of the plastic packaging sold in british supermarkets, sign up to a pact to cut plastic pollution. we'll find out how it'll work. hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning — use the hashtag victoria live and if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate. alfie evans‘ father says there will be a meeting with doctors later today, to discuss taking his son home. alfie was taken off a ventilator on monday. his parents‘ latest attempt to take him abroad for treatment was dismissed by the court of appeal yesterday. but speaking outside alder hey hospital in liverpool this morning, his father, tom evans, said he was prepared to continue his legal fight.

if the meeting doesn't go well today, then i will go back to court. and i will do it all the way back to human rights for the simple reason i'm rightand human rights for the simple reason i'm right and so is alfie. why should i sit back and allow alfie to lie in his bed when he shouldn't be in the bed? he has laid there for long enough and he has fought hard enough. it is all about getting home. i don't know whether the human rights will change their mind but it isa rights will change their mind but it is a question to ask. whether we go through it or not, alfie will still be here. we can reach out to it as well as try to get him home. andy gill is live at alder hey hospital in liverpool where alfie is being looked after. how likely is it that the hospital will lead alfie evans go home with his parents? well, there is a high court —— at a

high court hearing earlier this week when yet another application by the family to take alfie to italy was turned down. thejudge did raised the possibility of alfie being allowed to go home, or possibly to a hospice. at the same hearing though, and alder hey doctor bromley can't name for legal reasons, said that would require a sea change in the attitude of the family, because at that stage they were worried that the family might try to take to italy. it is a possibility, i think, although in hearings back in february, which i attended, the problems were raised about looking after alfie at home. the family don't have a very large home. and to look after him, clearly they would need medical equipment. one of the things thom evans said to reporters this morning was that he thinks the family can look after alfie at home. the family have already been trained

in some of the simpler procedures that have been keeping alfie alive. so, we willjust have to wait and see what doctors say. the hospital's attitude so far has not really been one where i would think they would wa nt one where i would think they would want alfie evans to go home. ican hear want alfie evans to go home. i can hear people chanting alfie's name not too far from you. a i can hear people chanting alfie's name not too farfrom you. a group of people who have been there for some days. the hospital chairman described them as impeding medical professionals getting into hospital and doing their work? well, last night the chief executive and chair of the trust here at alder hey released a very strongly worded open letter. he said the doctors, nurses and staff have been subject to a barrage of abuse on social media, in person and online. merseyside police are looking at some of these social media post that have been posted

about this matter. they say if there has been malicious communication are threatening behaviour, that will be investigated. and if appropriate, the police will take action. the hospital say it is completely unacceptable that they have been trying to run this hospital, and yet over the past few days they have had to have a significant police presence on the site. thank you very much, andy gill. ben brown is in the bbc newsroom with a summary of the rest of the day's news. good morning. more than a0 companies have signed up to what's been described as a "world—leading initiative" to cut plastic pollution in britain. they've announced a number of targets, including a promise to make all plastic packaging suitable for reuse, recycling or composting by 2025. the waste reduction charity, wrap, says the businesses involved are responsible for more than 80% of the plastic packaging on products sold in british supermarkets. an official document shows that as recently as three years ago, immigration enforcement teams

were set targets to remove people regarded as having no right to stay in britain. a target of 12,000 voluntary departures of people with no right to remain, was in the most recent inspection report into removals, published in december 2015. the home secretary, amber rudd, yesterday told mps that wasn't how her department operated now and a senior civil servant responsible for immigration policy said he didn't think such targets existed. the government's decision to leave the customs union after brexit will be debated by mps today. labour has said there's no economic case for ruling out a customs union. several conservatives, who backed remain, have signalled their readiness to take a stand against the government on the issue. the proceedings will provide an indication of the strength of opposition theresa may is likely to face in future commons votes on her brexit plans. a mum whose primary school aged son was a victim of sexual abuse

by a boy younger than him, says there needs to be more guidance for schools on how to deal with the issue. the boy was raped when another child was invited to his home to play. his mother says primary schools need more information. i don't think schools know how to deal with it or the signs to look out for. they may be quite dismissive about those early signs, and they shouldn't be because it is all of ourjob is to safeguard children, even the little things. the nhs in england will need another £50 billion a year by 2030, according to a review by two former health ministers. labour's lord darzi and the conservative, lord prior, carried out the review with a panel of experts convened by the institute for public policy research. the report also says further efficiency savings will be needed, to meet the anticipated growth in demand for care. the chief executive of tsb, paul pester, says it's not good enough that half of the bank's

customers still can't access their accounts online, following six days of it problems. speaking to the bbc, mr pester acknowledged his own advice to customers, to "keep trying", sounded weak. he said experts were being brought in to fix the problems, and customers would not be left out—of—pocket this month. offering mental health counselling to primary school pupils would provide long—term benefits to the economy, according to a new report. the charity, pro bono economics, says that every one pound spent could return more than six pounds to society by improving job prospects and cutting crime. catherine burns has more. if you don't have a place to be, then you'll just feel, like, so negative. the children's mental health charity place to be provides emotional support to pupils at schools across the uk. it helps with everything from arguments in the playground to complex issues, either through group sessions

like this or individual work. it asked economists to put a financial value on its work with primary pupils. the report predicts that every child who has individual counselling through the charity could benefit by £5,700. that's mostly because they're one day expected to go on and getjobs and earn higher wages. they're also less likely to cost society in the future by needing different kinds of help. the service cost more than £4 million across the country in one year. this school paid about £20,000. if it didn't transform children's lives, we wouldn't continue with it, because it's got to be cost—effective. how do you weigh up a child's emotional feelings with cost? the government agrees that it's important to spot mental health problems early on, and has pledged £300 million extra help for primary and secondary schools. catherine burns, bbc news.

medication prescribed to treat depression and bladder conditions are associated with an increased risk of dementia, a new study has found. the report says up to two million people in england are likely to be taking one of the anti—cholinergics linked to dementia at any one time. but experts have warned the findings of the research, published in the british medicaljournal, should be treated with caution. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 9.30. thank you. welcome to the programme. do get in touch with us throughout the morning. some of you already are regarding children abusing other children. we will bring you an interview with a mum about that. let's get some sport with hugh ferris. and liverpool fans were watching last night's champions league second semifinal with interest? yes, that's right. in fact, we have

a liverpool fan in the newsroom who has asked me to be very careful with how i phrase this. should liverpool reach the champions league final, and they are in a very good position to do so, but let's not tempt fate, should they reach the final, they will face either bayern munich real madrid. those two have won the european cup 17 times between them. madrid won the first leg of their semifinal in munich by 2—1. they came from 1—0 down. this, a crucial away goal, the second from asensio. it followed a mistake by bayern. real madrid have won three of the last four champions leagues. bayern must score at least twice the bernabeu stadium next tuesday to have an opportunity go through. some more fallout from the first leg of

the liverpool game against roma. they won by 5—2. some ugly scenes beforehand outside of anfield. two italian men have been charged with violent disorder following an incident ahead of that game. a 53—year—old was seriously injured. that happened just outside the albert pub. a 20—year—old and a 29—year—old will appear court this morning. the victim remains in a critical condition in hospital. news reaching us this morning of further charges. tonight it is arsenal's tarn in the europa league? yes, and for all those romantics who want arsene wenger to ride off into the sunset a hero, this is the big one. the europa league gets them more than just a trophy. it allows arsene wenger‘s successor a chance in the champions league next season. the final would be wenger‘s last game in charge after movie 22 years. to get there they have to beat atletico madrid, who are doing ever so well

in spain, as they usually do. they are second in la liga. they have a very good recent record in europe. it would be incredibly difficult for arsenal. for those romantics who won success for arsene wenger, they have to get past a very difficult team. the first leg is tonight at the emirates stadium. and the governing body of athletic sap introduced new roles —— rules regarding toss tester on? caster semenya, it has been nearly ten yea rs semenya, it has been nearly ten years since caster semenya was the subject of these issues. the iaaf will place a limit on the mat of natural testosterone allowed in female athletes. it will only apply to athletes taking part in track events. those crucial middle—distance races and the longer sprints. this could affect caster semenya, a double olympic champion. she won the middle—distance double at the commonwealth games. after her first world title in 2009, she

underwent a gender test. a rule was introduced making women who produce high—level testosterone to introduced making women who produce hig h—level testosterone to ta ke hormones to suppress them. that ruling was overturned. semanya has gone on to dominate since then. the change comes in in november. athletes like caster semenya would now have to take medication to lower levels of testosterone, or in fact change event. she has talked about doing perhaps the 5000 or 10,000 metres in order to not have to undergo any sort of medical assessment. and so this is an incredibly important development for the likes of caster semenya. and it has far reaching effects beyond her as well. thank you. more throughout the morning. good morning. and now, a shocking story that some of you may find hard to watch, and that you may not want children to hear. we've been speaking to a mother who says her primary school aged son was raped by a boy from his school. it happened during a play date within her family home. the mum, who we're calling sarah, says she thinks children being sexually abused by other children is more common

than anyone could imagine. many are under the age of criminal responsibility. sarah wants her interview to raise awareness. it comes as charities tell us they're recording increasing numbers of these kinds of cases. the charity mosac, which supports the parents and carers of sexually abused children, has told us that the number of calls they've received about this kind of abuse has doubled in four years — rising from 27 calls in 2013, to 58 in 2017. in the past year, more of those calls related to primary aged children than secondary. to protect the anonymity of the young children involved in this case, we've changed the mother's name and her words are spoken for her. we've also left out some of the details. just a warning that some of the things you're

about to hear are upsetting — and you may not want your children to watch. the interview lasts just over 11 minutes. thank you very much for talking to us. i wonder if you might explain, first of all, why you got in touch with us? my son has been a victim of child—on—child sexual abuse. i feel really strongly about this issue. there just isn't enough attention paid to younger children, younger victims. it's really important, because i think people overlook the fact that children, young children, are capable of doing... of raping and/or abusing other children, young children. i thought, if i don't know about this, then it must mean lots of other people are ignorant to it, that there's a risk. i just want more awareness. i think it's quite a taboo subject. i think we need to start talking about child—on—child abuse. it's had such an impact on our lives, him being a victim. nobody wants to talk about it.

it's so hushed up. i don't feel comfortable with that at all. why don't you tell us what happened? he had a friend come over to play. and then, that evening, he just wasn't himself. he was lying, throwing himself around on the floor, saying, i just don't want to be here any more. and at bedtime, he told me that he was in pain, because someone had been hurting him. as my son continued to explain why he was hurt, i realised he was describing a serious sexual assault. the boy kept asking to see my son's genitals, and said that other the boys always show him theirs. the boy said he wouldn't be my son's friend if he didn't play with him, and that this is how he plays with other boys. and the coercion continued and, sadly, led to my son being raped. obviously, i was absolutely gobsmacked. ijust couldn't believe it. he told me that he just... he just kept crying and crying. and i was in total shock. you know, i had no idea. he told me that... he barricaded the door.

he'd told him not to tell anybody else, not to talk about it. he said the boy told him not to tell his parents. he told him he'd done it to other children, he'd done other things. he explains how he'd done... well, other, similar things in the past. and this friend, this boy, is actually younger than your son? yeah. yeah, we were in total shock. he was in such a state. i just didn't know what to do. the next morning, you called the school, which your son and his friend attend, and you called the police? the officer said that he would... he talked us through what happened, and he said he would come round the following day to see and interview our son. and we spoke... well, we told the head that we didn't want him coming into school, based on the fact that we didn't want our child in the same class as that boy, and we didn't want to have to bump into the family, either. we didn't feel it was something we wanted our son to go through. so, you told the school head that

one of the pupils had raped another of their pupils, your son? yes. and the reaction from the head was, what? he asked if anything had happened at school. at the time, we said, no. and he said, well, i'd call the police. you need to call the police. and that was it. and what has the school done? what have the police done? the police told us they interviewed him, and they told us that because he was under the age of criminal prosecution there was little they could do. so, because he was under ten? yeah. in the eyes of the law, it means he had committed no offence? yeah. yeah, essentially. did you understand that, did you accept that? not really. it's quite hard to accept that something so horrific can happen and there's no consequences. he was in such a state. we were in such a state. it just seems completely wrong to me. yeah. the school, they put safeguarding in place. but he continued in the class?

he continued in the class, yeah, as normal. and how was your son at this point? devastated. he wanted to go back to school, but he didn't want to see that child. just in limbo, not knowing what to do. he was upset, because we told the police, obviously. he didn't want to talk about it. he felt confused, he couldn't sleep. just really bad depression, really awful depression. and he started talking about self—harming. in what sense? he said he really wanted to hurt himself, he didn't want... well, he wanted to die. really? hejust retreated into himself. just very low, low moods, low confidence. very upset, crying a lot. and how did you, as his parents, try to comfort him or console him? yeah, we told him he was very brave. and that we felt very proud that he had actually told us. i mean, obviously he told me

because he was in pain. but i felt quite proud that he had actually been confident enough to talk to me about it, because it's a subject that's... i don't think children want to talk about that kind of thing. so, we told him he was very brave and that he'd done absolutely the right thing. and that what he'd done would help the other child, because he needed help. so we tried to make him realise that he'd done the right thing. but, despite us telling him that, nothing in his life seemed to mirror that. after a couple of weeks, we told him, you're going to have to start a new school. we didn't feel comfortable with him going back to the same school. so his life, essentially, changed quite dramatically. he had to make a new start, which didn't help, because he was already very depressed. starting afresh wasn't something he was very keen to do. is there any doubt in your mind that it was exactly as your son described? no. could it have been boys messing about?

no. because of the way he described it, he described, my son... he talked about a grooming process. the child knew what he was doing. he turned around to us and said, "right, don't disturb us this afternoon, we're going to be building something with lego. it's going to be amazing. we're going to build something really big. so don't disturb us." he said that to you? he said that to me and my husband. we had no reason to suspect anything different. you know, it was fine, great, i wonder what you're going to build? so, he barricaded the door, he shut the curtains. the language he used, he used threats and coercion. what kind of language? "don't tell your parents." "you know i've done this to other children." other things along those lines. you can't make something up like that. and my son described it in quite a lot of detail, which he wouldn't have been able to do without having experienced it. can i ask you if one social services were involved, did you everfeel like you were under suspicion?

no. we never felt like we were under suspicion. as far as you know, has this other boy had any guidance or counselling about what he did? i've no idea. we've not been told anything other than they are working with the family, or they were working with the family. that's all we were told. how do you find that lack of knowledge? unhappy about that. obviously we are going to hell. we are still going through hell. —— obviously we are going through hell. to not know that there is something happening, that the parents are trying to help their child, that they know they understand what happened, and that they are trying to re—educate him, it's upsetting. but they might be doing that? they might be. you worry that there is a serious gap in safeguarding here from the perspective of your son, an alleged victim, from the perspective of other potential victims, and also from the perspective

of the perpetrator. what should fill that gap? what should be there? what should be the framework when a child has done something as apparently serious as this, but yet is under the age of criminal response ability? it's difficult to say. they should certainly be monitored quite closely. very closely. imean... i don't think school can monitor that closely. it's also about extracurricular activities, too. safeguarding in the community, outside of school. i think there should be strict guidelines given to the family about what they should be doing and they shouldn't be doing. but we'll have to do whatever we can to try to make sure that our son feels safe, that we feel safe, too. it's also meant i understand, your son not going to some of those after—school activities, stuff that he would normally do, in case the other boy was there? that's it, we have to safeguard our child. so we have to always ask, will that child be there? so, yeah, it's always been up to us.

which is unfortunate, because he's dropped out of a lot of things because of the worry that he's facing. tell us how your son is and what he's been diagnosed with. he's been diagnosed with ptsd. so he suffers with the trauma. he's definitely trying to avoid it. he doesn't like to talk about it. he won't talk about it. he wants to avoid the trauma. is going through cognitive therapy, but it's a long time since the incident happened, and he's really struggling with revisiting it all now. he's made friends, he's tried to, essentially, start afresh. he's got a lot of worries about being teased, being bullied, people saying things. it does feel like there's a stigma attached to being the victim of sexual crime. why do you say that? i definitely feel that we are treated a bit differently. have you considered moving completely out of the area? yeah, we have considered. and we still haven't ruled it out or decided what's best for our family as a whole. what do you feel about the fact that this happened in your home? devastated.

i feel... you just can't help but feel some guilt. but who expects a child to come into the house and, one, be capable of such a thing, and two, actually do it? i didn't know this was possible. i certainly didn't suspect a child would do it. so, yeah, i feel awful. and it makes you very suspicious of children and other families. and of allowing my child to go anywhere else. and you got to a point where you were so distressed, so frustrated, so worried about what you perceived as a lack of safeguarding, that you got in touch with us? i really feel there's a lot of ignorance over this issue, and i really want people to be aware that this could happen to them. it could happen to their child. it happens. it's not unusual in schools. and i don't think schools know how to deal with it, all the signs to look out for. i think they may well be quite dismissive about those early signs, and they shouldn't be,

because it's all of ourjob to safeguard children, even the little things. if you report a little thing, and someone else has reported something, then you get a bigger picture. it starts to come out. maybe they need to work more closely with social workers, to share more information? anything that can prevent this happening to another family has got to be a positive thing. thank you very much for talking to us today. thank you. since recording this interview we have been told that sarah's son has been awarded a sum of money by the criminal injuries compensation authority, in recognition of the harm caused as a result of the sexual abuse he suffered. if you have been affected by any of the issues raised help and support are available at bbc.co.uk/actionline. or you can call for free at any time to hear recorded information — the number is 08000155 947. later, we'll talk to a chairty which has recorded a rise in calls

to them from parents and professionals about chldren sexually abusing other children. thank you for your messages. a message on twitter, this is heartbreaking, we have a no upstairs role in my house —— rule in my house. the biggest role in my house is no secrets. another message service, it is frightening to think that young people behave like that, what will they grow up to be like if they do things at that age and think it is ok. another message says, how does a prepubescent child know how to do this? and one text from somebody who doesn't want to leave their name, which is fine, i don't remember much about this other than it happened, i was under the age of seven, it was break time at school,

i was lying onto the —— i was lying on the grass under a tree, a girl came up and touched me. i never told anybody. but the experience comes up in my head far too often. you can find out about the pants rule on the nspcc website. still to come, the parents of alfie evans ask doctors to allow their son to come home. we'll speak to a mum who took the agonising decision to switch her 12—year—old daughter's life support off. if you have made such a decision in your child's life — a decision to stop treatment in effect — do let us know your own experiences. and could earlier intervention in children's mental health boost the economy? we'll hear from a charity delivering counselling in primary schools. time for the latest news.

here's ben brown with the bbc news headlines this morning. good morning. alfie evans' father says there will be a meeting with doctors later today, to discuss taking his son home. alfie was taken off a ventilator on monday. his parents‘ latest attempt to take him abroad for treatment was dismissed by the court of appeal yesterday. more than a0 companies have signed up to what's been described as a "world—leading initiative" to cut plastic pollution in britain. they've announced a number of targets, including a promise to make all plastic packaging suitable for reuse, recycling or composting by 2025. the waste reduction charity, wrap, says the businesses involved are responsible for more than eighty per cent of the plastic packaging on products sold in british supermarkets. an official document shows that, three years ago, immigration enforcement teams were set targets to remove people regarded as having no right to stay in britain. a target of 12,000 "voluntary" departures of people with no right to remain was in the most recent

inspection report into removals, published in 2015. asked about targets by mps yesterday, the home secretary, amber rudd, said that wasn't how her department operated. labour have been granted an urgent question on the policy in the commons later today. the government's decision to leave the customs union after brexit will be debated by mps today. labour has said there's no economic case for ruling out a customs union. and several conservatives, who backed remain, have signalled their readiness to take a stand against the government on the issue. a mum whose primary school—aged son was a victim of sexual abuse by a boy younger than him, says there needs to be more guidance for schools on how to deal with the issue. the boy was raped when another child was invited to his home to play. his mum says primary schools need to be given more information. i don't think schools know how to deal with it, or the signs to look out for.

i think they may well be quite dismissive about those early signs, and they shouldn't be, because it's all of ourjobs to safeguard children, even the little things. two italian men have been charged in connection with an attack on an irish businessman before liverpool's champions league match with roma on tuesday. sean cox, from county meath in ireland, is in a critical condition after the incident outside anfield. the nhs in england will need another £50 billion a year by 2030, according to a review by two former health ministers. labour's lord darzi and the conservative, lord prior, carried out the review with a panel of experts convened by the institute for public policy research. the report also says further efficiency savings will be needed, to meet the anticipated growth in demand for care. that's a summary of the latest bbc news. thank you. here's some sport now with hugh ferris. real madrid have the advantage

after the first leg of their champions league semi final against bayern. they won in munich, coming from behind to beat german champions 2—1. real are going for three european cups in a row. denied arsenal have the first leg of their europa league semifinal against atletico madrid. winning the competition offers arsene wenger‘s replacement a chance in the champions league next season. the fifth former winner to lose at this year's world snooker championship says it's because the quality is getting better. neil robertson lost to qualifier robert milkins in the first round. he says they are notjust he says they are not just there he says they are notjust there to make up the numbers. that is all a sport for an hour. more after ten. the father of alfie evans says there will be a meeting with doctors later today, to discuss taking his son home. he told reporters that he believed his son had been misdiagnosed and that he was not suffering and not in pain. tom evans and kate james failed in their 11th—hour attempt

to persuade judges to let them move the 23—month—old to a hospital in italy. the couple maintain that life—support treatment should continue to be provided. here is what alfie's dad had to say a little earlier all i ask for now is this meeting. what we want now is this meeting to be a positive one, and i hope to have alfie, on the terms of mine and alder hey‘s, to be home within a day or two. if the meeting doesn't go well today, then we'll go back to court, and go all the way back to human rights, for the simple reason i'm right, and so is alfie. so, why should ijust sit back and allow alfie tojust lie in this bed, when he shouldn't be in the bed? he's lied here for long enough, and he's fought for long enough. now it's all about getting him home. we've been denied the chance of italy by the court of appeal. i don't know whether the human rights will change their mind or not. it's a question for me to ask, should we go through that again? whether we go through it or not, alfie will still be here.

so we can just explore it and reach out to it, as well as trying to get him home. as i sit next to alfie's bedside, every second of every day, it encourages me more and more that he will live, for x amount of months. possibly years. and you obviously want to get him home as quickly as possible. you have the meeting this morning — do you know the time frame? this afternoon, they say they need to be there to observe him, but now we're on our third day. he's been observed more by me, his mum and his family. so today we have to start making some arrangements for getting the care plan in progress, start getting us trained up, although i am already trying to do the majority of the stuff. he's not on a ventilator, i won't need to do the line and stuff. all i need to be trained to do is chest physio and put a catheter in, which is a catheter that goes down his throat, to his airway, and just gets it up from there. the rest is alfie, and alfie is showing the best, he's fighting. me and his mum backed that fighting. we're glad that we fought all the way. we do take the criticism on the chin. people might still see us

for doing wrong now, but everyone questions, why are you letting machine play god? i ain't letting no machine play god. that's supporting alfie. i reminded everyone that was not there to cure alfie, it was there to support him. as i stated, there's been no like to highlight the biggest benefit of this, which is that he's not suffering. he's in no pain. there was no pain when we fed him. so, we now look to the queen, again, yet again, i'djust reach out to the queen, please, stepped up, speak out, and get our son out of here. there's enough people in enough government's, enough parliaments, enough meps behind us. the polish president's behind us. please, look into my eyes, release my son. speak out, stand up and get alfie home. please. thank you very much. a passionate appeal from tom

a passionate appealfrom tom evans. we're going to talk now to steph nimmo, who did take the decision to switch her 12—year—old daughter daisy‘s life support off in 2017. emma nottingham is a member of the institute of medical ethics‘ research committee, and lecturer in law at the university of winchester that specialises in child law. and peter—marc fortune is the head of the paediatric intensive care society. thank you all for coming on the programme. steph, iwould thank you all for coming on the programme. steph, i would like to ask you how you made that decision? obviously it is the most unimaginable decision any parent should have to make. you would hope asa should have to make. you would hope as a parent you never have to make that decision. i think i was in in some ways a fortunate position that daisy was 12 when we switched off her life support, but we had had many years of conversations with the palliative care team. i think that was the most important thing.

palliative care intervention started early and we were open to it. we had open and honest conversations, knowing that daisy had a finite life. and in fact, if i'm correct, she wasn‘t expected to live past her first birthday? no. she was born very prematurely. she was diagnosed with a genetic disease. the doctors didn‘t know a lot about the disease. they didn‘t know she would even make one year. she had a reasonable quality of life but a huge amount of medical intervention. and then over the years, her quality of life did start to deteriorate. that is when we had conversations with the palliative team about ensuring we rent —— maintained the optimal quality of life and give her some dignity at the end of her life as well. and so, when you saw the

quality—of—life deteriorating, is that when the decision has to be made? absolutely. daisy became very ill, very quickly. she had very slow decline. and then at the very end, she was in intensive care. she was ventilated. she had had a cardiac arrest. and it was very clear to me that this was the end of daisy. she was on a love of machines. there we re was on a love of machines. there were certain things the doctors could potentially done to extend her life are few more days. but as far asi life are few more days. but as far as i was concerned, that was the point in time when we had to say, enough is enough. you made that decision? i made that decision. we discussed. my husband had died of cancer the year before. i was on my own. it was just horrific. cancer the year before. i was on my own. it wasjust horrific. but cancer the year before. i was on my own. it was just horrific. but in some ways we had already, andy and i had had. says in is. and so when it came down to it, i knew absolutely it was the right thing to do. i felt it was the right thing to do. i felt it was the most selfless thing to do for daisy, to let her go. as a mum,

it is the last thing you want to do. you just want one last cuddle, you just want your child. but you almost have to stand back and think, what is the best thing for my child? the best thing was to give the nod to the consultant to turn off the ventilator and let her go. peter, all of us understand the desire of pa rents to all of us understand the desire of parents to continue a child‘s life. you must have great sympathy for alfie evans‘ parents? you must have great sympathy for alfie evans' parents? absolutely. and i mustn't go on without saying, hearing daisy's story again, i am very humbled by what hasjust been shared. it is a very difficult time for everybody involved when you are making decisions that may be about life and death. in terms of the decision, the disagreement, i beg your pardon, with alfie evans‘ pa rents

your pardon, with alfie evans‘ parents and the medical professionals, what happens when there is conflict? i think the most important thing to point out is that these sort of situations arrive on a daily basis in our children's hospitals. in the majority of cases, particularly with time, we find a common ground between the medical professionals and the families, and a course we both feel offers the best possible quality of life and options for any child at the centre of it. it only proceeds to court when we are not able to do that. emma nottingham, there have already been a number of disagreements between alfie evans‘ parents and the medical professionals. potentially there is another one looming. tom evans there is another one looming. tom eva ns wa nts there is another one looming. tom evans wants to take alfie home. he has to check that is doable with the medical professionals. should he be allowed to go home? it is going to

focus around alfie's best interests. that has been the golden standard throughout this whole process, according to the courts. we always have to think objectively about the best interests of the child. that is what the court would look at as to whether he can go home are not. what is difficult in this situation is that because of the social media campaign, the public outcry, it has been easy to lose sight that this is about a particular child. it is not about a particular child. it is not about the different opinions of people. there has been a lot of speculation from people who don't necessarily have all the facts. quite rightly, alder hey have kept a lot of the information confidential, which is ethically is the right thing to do. the problem with that is that there is not enough transparency. so, people from their living rooms can get onto social media and immediately make a comment. it only takes a couple of re—tweets for that to escalate into something much bigger, which has put a lot of pressure on everyone

involved. not just a lot of pressure on everyone involved. notjust the internet. people can go on the internet and find what they think might be a cure for this little boy? absolutely. that is the other angle, the power of the internet and the international medicalisation that we have today means that alternative treatments and different countries willing to get involved, is much more accessible. obviously we would hope the situation with alfie becoming a citizen of italy has not big care —— made a difference. italy was offering palliative care, which you can have here anyway. it was not in his best interest to move him. let me read some messages. maria feels sorry for alfie evans. she feels sorry for alfie evans. she feels his parents are wrong to keep going to court. they have been told

his condition will not improve. "i think the crowds outside the hospital should be moved on. it is wrong for people to threat —— sent threatening e—mails to staff. the staff do a fantasticjob. no one knows what pain alfie is in." mary says, "i listen every day about this child. the child is in pain. he is a human being. give him his human rights, let him die in peace." peter, i wonder what you say to people who cite examples of children surviving despite attempts to switch off life—support machines?” surviving despite attempts to switch off life-support machines? i think there is an important distinction to be made. when we decide that a therapy overall does not represent best interests for a child, we stopped to offer that therapy. in this particular case the obvious thing is the breathing machine. but that doesn't mean that we discontinue caring. quite the opposite. we refocus on the palliative aspects of care, trying to get the absolute best quality of life that we can for the young

person in whatever remaining time they have. it is important that that is understood. the team at alder hey are an amazing team who look after thousands of children every year. they —— their thousands of children every year. they — — their whole thousands of children every year. they —— their whole focus is on trying to do the right thing by every child they look after. thank you all for coming on the programme. we appreciate your time. coming up... the latest crime data shows big increases in violent offences in england and wales with knife crime up by more than 20%. those figures just to the end of last year, so not including the first few weeks of this year. for every £1 we invest in a child who has a mental health problem at primary school level, there‘s a potential for them to give back around £6.20 to society. that‘s according to a study by mental health charity place2be and economic experts. they say one—to—one mental health support from counsellors,

could improve life chances for kids over their lifetime and generate significant economic benefits. as it stands, only 56% of primary schools offer some form of counselling service, but of those only a% get any funding from the government. so could earlier intervention save the taxpayer in the longrun? sarah kendrick works for a group that provides counselling to children, and jamie maloy is a headteacher at a primary school. they have counselling for their children and they have been telling me about some of the mental health problems they have seen children experience. one in ten children, at some point during their primary career, will experience a mental health difficulty or disorder. and it‘s not uncommon to see low self—esteem, body image issues, and issues faced around the normal things that children will see in their lives. so, parents breaking up, bereavement and the family, orjust difficulties and stress with daily life, including exam pressures. and do you provide counselling

for your children, in your primary school? we do. we are very lucky to be one of the place to be schools. we have a place2be project manager, and five volunteer counsellors that can provide counselling for our children, three days a week. and how does that help them? well, the great thing about place2be is that not only does it offer one—to—one counselling for those most in need, it also offers a drop—in session, a self referral session, lunchtimes, called place2talk. and we also support parents, too. so, it is full wraparound care, and it‘s play—based, so that children can work through any difficulties they have, with the support of a trained counsellor. and its immediate, as well. sara kendrick is alongside me from place2be, that delivers in jamie‘s primary school and others. how do you measure success? we commissioned this report because our evidence shows us that one—to—one counselling with primary

schoolchildren has big benefits. and we commissioned this report so that we could see the economic benefits. that's the first time that we've done that. and this report shows that for every £1 spent on counselling for primary school children, there is a return on that investment of £6.20. explain what that means? the return on investment, the £6.20, is in cost savings, particularly to government, but also in employment. so, for example, children having better earning power, better employment prospects. and also, of course, cost savings to government. the nhs, presumably? and the nhs, in terms of children not suffering from depression later on in life. and, of course, not being involved in the criminaljustice system. and we know that a lot of children

who suffer, for example, conduct disorders early on, which is a mental health problem, will go on to be involved in the criminaljustice system. so, this shows us that there's a cost benefit, for the first time, in counselling children. jamie, do you know what triggers anxiety and depression in primary school aged children? i think it‘s a combination of factors, it‘s a very difficult question to answer in a sound bite. we‘ve got time, jamie. it‘s really important. i‘m serious, it‘s important to our audience. children are subjected, i think, to an increasing social media presence. so, there are a lot of pressures on them to look a certain way, to dress a certain way, much more than there were when we were younger. coupled with that, there‘s an increased awareness of what‘s going on in the world, for instance, in our school, a lot of children are very upset

and very moved by the terror attacks that we‘ve been having, and they are shown media coverage that maybe isn‘t age—appropriate for them. teachers only have so many hours in the day to be able to talk to children, and we don‘t have that one—to—one time. that‘s where a service like place2be is vital in giving support to the children that need that, beyond what a normal teacher can provide in the day. sarah, you have a self referral box for children — tell us about that? that's right, this is our place2 talk service. children can refer themselves, so they put a slip in a box, and they have an appointment, they can either come by themselves or with friends. and this is a way of really encouraging early help seeking behaviour. so, when people think about a counselling service in a school, they often think about the one—to—one therapy. this is a way of helping children to access a service

that they can rely on, and they know will really help them in solving their problems. and most children come to us with friendship issues. and people often think, well, how can that be all of our working lives are based around relationships. is that not what teachers and parents do? well, you have a dedicated person in a school. so, place2be puts a therapist in a school. and they deliver that service. so, they are a trained professional and they can understand that some children who come to us might need extra support. so, it's a way, also, of seeing those children who might need additional support from us. jamie, of the 56% of primary schools that do provide

this kind of support, or counselling for children like yours, a% are funded by the government. what do you think about that? i think it‘s woeful, and quite shocking, actually, that the government has not seen the impact of early intervention and funded it better. like the report shows today, a £1 investment will see £6.20 back when these young children are adults. or £6.20 worth of savings, from not using the nhs and the criminaljustice system. headteachers such as myself have to make very difficult decisions of whether we are going to fund the services, whether we are going to fund other things in our schools. i think there is a real, growing awareness, through things like the heads together campaign, that mental health affects all of us, we all have mental health, and it is really important that is part of a school service. like we said before, the teachers have a lot of skills, but they are not trained counsellors, and that‘s why we at viking primary buy into it.

let‘s just have a listen to some year a and year 5 children from primary school who have been helped by the place2be scheme. hi, my name is adonna, and place2be has helped me, because if i‘ve had home troubles or school troubles i can go to place2be and talk to elizabeth and she would lift the weight off my shoulders. hi, my name is toni—lee, and i think place2be will help lots of children around the world, because you can share your emotions and your feelings and you won't get in trouble for spreading anything. hello, my name is azan, and in my opinion, place2be is a very good place where you can express your feelings and your emotions, and it can get you something very important in life, and it's called a friend. sarah, let me ask a final thought to you, there are some adults, some parents, indeed, who think this is not really what primary school is about, it‘s a bit too touchy—feely, and, actually, primary school is about reading, writing and arithmetic. i would agree with them that

school is about learning. but you will know yourself, i know, that if i go to work with a lot of worries on my mind, then i can't attend to my work. so, what we're doing is supporting education. supporting children, by seeing them really early on in the life of a problem. we won't need to see them for very long, but we know that now, and our evidence shows us, that that kind of intervention prevents children's mental health problems from growing with them into adulthood. ellie pullen, had depression and anxiety at 12 years old. thank you for talking to us. tell us how all of this affected you as a 12—year—old. how all of this affected you as a 12-year-old. i felt very different. i felt isolated from my peers. going

into school became increasingly challenging for me. i‘d often be in tea rs challenging for me. i‘d often be in tears in the morning. my parents would be doing battle with me to get me to go to school. did you get any help, any counselling? me to go to school. did you get any help, any counselling ?|j me to go to school. did you get any help, any counselling? iwas me to go to school. did you get any help, any counselling? i was really lucky that my secondary school had a councillor in place and i was able to see them fairly quickly. but they decided that i needed to see a specialist. i was referred to child and adolescent mental health services. were you able to access that quickly? it was a very long wait. a very long wait for an initial screening. and after that i had to wait even longer to actually get any treatment. but you did eventually. how did that help you cope with your anxiety? u nfortu nately now cope with your anxiety? unfortunately now i don‘t particularly feel the benefit from it. at the time i guess it helped me a bit. ithink

it. at the time i guess it helped me a bit. i think i would have benefited from intervention a lot earlier if it had perhaps been picked up by my teachers, the support team at school sooner. what about at primary school? that is what today‘s story is about a day, that primary school children who receive counselling, according to this charity, meaning they have better life outcomes, and are less ofa better life outcomes, and are less of a cost to society. do you think intervention at primary school is a good thing, and could have helped you, potentially? are not sure ifi had those problems at the time. at the time i wasn‘t sure what was going on. at that age you have a lot of changes going on around you. and to yourself. but i definitely think it would be a benefit for children to be able to access those services. because i know the care quality commission reported last year that some children are waiting up to 18 months for help from specialist teams, which is far too long, and

it‘s just not good enough. teams, which is far too long, and it'sjust not good enough. thanks so much for talking to us today. we really appreciate it. some messages from you about alfie eva ns. some messages from you about alfie evans. we will bring you the latest news at ten. his dad is having a meeting with the doctors today to discuss whether they can take their son home. claire tweets, extraordinarily humbling message today about the agonising decision your guest at switching off the life—support of her child and a year after her husband had died. a dignity and strength was amazing. this one says alfie had a right to life, but not just this one says alfie had a right to life, but notjust in existence, i think there is a difference. this campaign seems to be driven by religious fanatics. nick tweet this child was given a chance of no survival aged six weeks, i‘m thankful my medical team didn‘t give up, instead they fought for me,

given the extensive medical treatment, and this year i celebrate my 53rd birthday. —— mick tweets that his child was given a chance of no survival. coming up. forty companies — who produce the vast majority of the plastic packaging sold in british supermarkets — sign up to a pact to cut plastic pollution. we‘ll find out how it‘ll work and whether campaigners think it will make a difference. let‘s get the latest weather update — with simon king. a beautiful start to the day for some of us. this was the scene in cambridge. but we‘ve had a few showers around this morning. in somerset one of those past three and a lovely rainbow came out there this morning. a few showers dotted around in south—west england, wales, and northern england. fewer showers developing today across england and

wales compared to yesterday. that is not to say there will be some of those passing through. heavier showers for scotland and northern ireland. thundered mixed in. easy conditions here, around 11 degrees. —— thunder and hail mixed in. further south to produce up to 17 degrees. the cloud will increase the south—west england and wales, eventually moving into the scilly isles. this is because of this area of low pressure. it will gradually push north and east as we go into friday. that will spoil things somewhat for many of us across england and wales. further north, for scotland and northern ireland, and the far north of england around cumbria, northumberland, probably staying mostly dry in the morning. heavy and slow moving showers developing into the afternoon. for england and wales, lots of cloud outbreaks, rain, and quite breezy in places. disappointingly cool temperatures. nine foot 13 degrees.

12 further north. —— nine to 13 degrees. let‘s ta ke let‘s take a look at saturday. some cloud hanging on in the south—east. sunny spells developing across many parts on saturday. heavy and potentially thundery showers in the far north—east of england and scotland. temperatures below average for the end of april, about nine to 13. on sunday, we look towards the south, because this area of low pressure just coming out of state will move through france. it‘s developing as it moves north. it‘ll throw this weather front towards the south—east of england. there is uncertainty as to how far west that will move, but for the south—eastern parts of england prepare for more rain. and a bit of a stronger wind. elsewhere, mostly dry on sunday, with sunshine, the odd shower dotted

around. but those temperatures are below where they should be, about nine to 13 degrees. hello, it‘s thursday, it‘s 10 o‘clock. i‘m victoria derbyshire. today, we‘ll bring you a shocking story that many of you will find upsetting. we‘re talking to a mother who wants to raise awareness of children sexually abusing other children. it‘s after, she says, her son was raped by another boy on a play date in his own home. i thought if i don‘t know about this, then it must mean lots of other people are ignorant to it, that there is a risk. ijust want that there is a risk. i just want more awareness. we‘ll hear more of the interview with that mum in a few minutes, and speak to a charity which supports parents and carers whose children have been sexually abused. alfie evans‘ dad says he‘ll go back to court if doctors don‘t let him take his terminally ill toddler home. he‘s meeting doctors later today. all i ask for now is this meeting to

bea all i ask for now is this meeting to be a positive one. and i hope to have alfie home within a day or two. if the meeting doesn‘t go well today, then i will go back to court. and a new study suggests some medicine increase the risk of dementia. we‘ll find out more. good morning. here‘s ben brown in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today‘s news. good morning. alfie evans‘ father says there will be a meeting with doctors later today, to discuss taking his son home. alfie was taken off a ventilator on monday. his parents‘ latest attempt to take him abroad for treatment was dismissed by the court of appeal yesterday. violent crimes recorded by police in england and wales increased by more than a fifth last year, compared with 2016. incidents of knife crime reported to police were up by nearly a quarter, and crimes involving a gun rose by 11 %. the figures do not include this

year‘s wave of knife attacks in london. a mum whose primary school—aged son was a victim of sexual abuse by a boy younger than him, says there needs to be more guidance for schools on how to deal with the issue. the boy was raped when another child was invited to his home to play. his mum says primary schools need to be given more information. i don‘t think schools know how to deal with it, or the signs to look out for. i think they may well be quite dismissive about those early signs, and they shouldn‘t be, because it‘s all of ourjobs to safeguard children, even the little things. two italian men have been charged in connection with an attack on an irish businessman before liverpool‘s champions league match with roma on tuesday. sean cox, from county meath in ireland, is in a critical condition after the incident outside anfield. an official document shows that, three years ago, immigration enforcement teams were set targets to remove people regarded as having no right to stay in britain.

a target of 12,000 "voluntary" departures of people with no right to remain was in the most recent inspection report into removals, published in 2015. asked about targets by mps yesterday, the home secretary, amber rudd, said that wasn‘t how her department operated. labour has been granted an urgent question on the policy in the commons later today. the government‘s decision to leave the customs union after brexit will be debated by mps today. labour has said there‘s no economic case for ruling out a customs union, and several conservatives, who backed remain, have signalled their readiness to take a stand against the government on the issue. the nhs in england will need another £50 billion a year by 2030, according to a review by two former health ministers. labour‘s lord darzi and the conservative, lord prior, carried out the review with a panel of experts convened by the institute for public policy research. the report also says further efficiency savings will be needed, to meet the anticipated growth

in demand for care. medication prescribed to treat depression and bladder conditions are associated with an increased risk of dementia, a new study has found. the report says up to two million people in england are likely to be taking one of the anti—cholinergics linked to dementia at any one time. but experts have warned the findings of the research, published in the british medicaljournal, should be treated with caution. the chief executive of tsb, paul pester, says it‘s not good enough that half of the bank‘s customers still can‘t access their accounts online, following six days of it problems. speaking to the bbc, mr pester acknowledged his own advice to customers to "keep trying", sounded weak. he said experts were being brought in to fix the problems, and customers would not be left out of pocket this month. that‘s a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 10.30. thank you very much. thank you for

your messages regarding our exclusive interview this morning with the mum who we are calling sarah. she told us that her young son was raped by another young boy. jasmine says this is a shocking and upsetting interview. michael says, "congratulations to the parent driving the courage to expose this incident." and this e—mail from someone who wishes to remain anonymous, "my daughter was sexually assaulted at school by a fellow pupil. my daughter‘s behaviour changed and she became depressed, wanting to die. she was 56 at the time. and by eight she was very depressed. i tried to help, talk about what was happening. although she suffered some serious health issues as a child, i believe her mood changes were related to those

ongoing problems. now she suffers from complex ptsd and is plagued by flashbacks." we will talk more about the issue in the next half an hour. you can remain anonymous if you‘re getting in touch. do get in touch with us throughout the morning — use the hashtag victoria live. the latest sport now. good morning. real madrid took a step closer to a third champions league title in a row and proved why their recent record in europe is so impressive by winning the first leg of their semi—final first leg against bayern munich 2—1. the german champions took the lead at the allianz arena but real hit back, eventually taking the lead through marco asensio after an error by the bayern defence. bayern must now score at least twice at the bernabeu next tuesday or the spanish side will be through to their fourth final in five years. arsenal want to be in the champions league next season and the only realistic way of doing that is by winning the europa league. they have the first leg of their semi final against atletico madrid tonight

at the emirates. should they reach the final it would be arsene wenger‘s final match before leaving but they‘ll have to beat a team riding high in spain‘s la liga, and who have a very good recent record in europe too. wbc world heavyweight champion deontay wilder has offered anthonyjoshua $50 million for a unification fight. wilder holds the only belt that joshua needs to be the undisputed heavyweight champion. and wilder has posted a video saying that he‘s been in touch with joshua‘s promoter. anthony, get your man eddie hearn to check his e—mail. i‘ve got something special for you. check his e—mail. i‘ve got something specialfor you. and by the check his e—mail. i‘ve got something special for you. and by the way, check his e—mail. i‘ve got something specialfor you. and by the way, all the money is in the bag. i hope you area the money is in the bag. i hope you are a man of europe word. well hearn has said he must be convinced the money exists before agreeing to the fight in either london or vegas. he also says the offer feels like a pr move but they are definitely interested. a meeting between both

fighters and their advisors is set for tomorrow. neil robertson‘s the latest former winner to go out of snooker‘s world championship in the first round. the 2010 champion followed shaun murphy, stuart bingham and reigning champion mark selby, out of the crucible doors, losing 10 5 to qualifier robert milkins. so why are so many top seeds falling atr the first hurdle? robertson reckons that qualifiers are now much more ambitious. even like ten years ago there would probably be too or three banana skins. other than that it was easy. they‘re just happy to be there. they try to make the score respectable, not trying to win. nowadays everybody is trying to beat each other and the pressure does not really co m e other and the pressure does not really come on the qualifiers until the last 16 when they are trying to get to the quarterfinals. stoger resumes at one o‘clock at the crucible. you can follow it across the bbc. -- crucible. you can follow it across the bbc. —— snooker. that‘s all the sport for now. we are going to talk further about

theissue we are going to talk further about the issue of children sexually abusing other children. we have been speaking with a mother who says her primary aged son was raped by a boy from his school. it happened during a play date within her family home. you may not want children to hear this short extract from the interview. to protect the anonymity of the young children involved in this case we‘ve changed the mother‘s name. we‘re calling her ‘sarah‘, and her words are spoken for her. we‘ve also left out some of the details. just a warning that some of things you‘re about to hear are upsetting — and you may not want your children to watch. the film lasts three and a half minutes. my son has been a victim of child—on—child sexual abuse. i feel really strongly about this issue. there just isn‘t enough attention paid to younger children, younger victims. it‘s really important, because i think people overlook the fact that children, young children, are capable of doing... of raping and/or abusing other children, young children. i thought, if i don‘t know

about this, then it must mean lots of other people are ignorant to it, that there‘s a risk. i just want more awareness. i think it‘s quite a taboo subject. i think we need to start talking about child—on—child abuse. it‘s had such an impact on our lives, him being a victim. nobody wants to talk about it. it‘s so hushed up. i don‘t feel comfortable with that at all. why don‘t you tell us what happened? he had a friend come over to play. and then, that evening, he just wasn‘t himself. he was lying, throwing himself around on the floor, saying, "i just don‘t want to be here any more." and at bedtime, he told me that he was in pain, because someone had been hurting him. as my son continued to explain why he was hurt, i realised he was describing a serious sexual assault. the boy kept asking to see my son‘s genitals, and said that other boys always show him theirs.

the boy said he wouldn‘t be my son‘s friend if he didn‘t play with him, and that this is how he plays with other boys. and the coercion continued and, sadly, led to my son being raped. obviously, i was absolutely gobsmacked. ijust couldn‘t believe it. he told me that he just... he just kept crying and crying. and i was in total shock. you know, i had no idea. he told me that... he barricaded the door. he‘d told him not to tell anybody else, not to talk about it. he said the boy told him not to tell his parents. he told him he‘d done it to other children, he‘d done other things. he explains how he‘d done... well, other, similar things in the past. and this friend, this boy, is actually younger than your son? yeah. yeah, we were in total shock. he was in such a state. i just didn‘t know what to do. the next morning, you called the school, which your son and his friend attend,

and you called the police? the officer said that he would... he talked us through what happened, and he said he would come round the following day to see and interview our son. and we spoke... well, we told the head that we didn‘t want him coming into school, based on the fact that we didn‘t want our child in the same class as that boy, and we didn‘t want to have to bump into the family, either. we didn‘t feel it was something we wanted our son to go through. so, you told the school head that one of the pupils had raped another of their pupils, your son? yes. and the reaction from the head was — what? he asked if anything had happened at school. at the time, we said, no. and he said, well, i‘d call the police. you need to call the police. and that was it. and what has the school done? what have the police done? the police told us they interviewed him, and they told us that because he was under the age of criminal prosecution there was little they could do. so, because he was under ten?

yeah. in the eyes of the law, it means he had committed no offence? yeah. yeah, essentially. did you understand that, did you accept that? not really. it‘s quite hard to accept that something so horrific can happen and there‘s no consequences. let‘s speak now to fiona sim, who is chief executive of the charity mosac, which supports all non—abusing parents and carers whose children have been sexually abused. jon brown, head of development and impact, nspcc. and anna cole, from the association of school and college leaders, who worked on the policy guidance with the department of education. fiona sim, how prevalent do you believe children under the age of criminal responsibility sexually abusing other children, is? good morning. i think you‘ve quoted from our statistics earlier this morning in saying that over the last four

yea rs, in saying that over the last four yea rs , we in saying that over the last four yea rs, we have in saying that over the last four years, we have seen a 100% increase in the calls that we receive regarding peer on peer abuse. just to get the context clear. 100% increase sounds catastrophic. but we are talking about small numbers. in 2016 year 27 calls, in 2017 it was double that. we feel we are barely scratching the pinhead of the issue because the prevalence of these cases is much wider, actually, on the phone calls we receive. but you are right, in the context of the numberof are right, in the context of the number of calls we receive, it has beena step number of calls we receive, it has been a step change. we've seen that also in our play therapy services, which have been running for about seven years. it started with adult on child abuse, now around 20% of

cases are dealing with children around the age of five. as alleged victims, or perpetrators? alleged victims. how do you react to that? it is an uncomfortable truth, isn't it? i think one of the outcomes that we hope to see from sarah's bravery todayis we hope to see from sarah's bravery today is that there is more discussion and debate and research into the reasons why this is happening. we feel we are dealing with a small proportion, obviously, but we are dealing with the symptoms and not the cause. we need to better understand that the cause, and why children so young, are being introduced by other children. it's a huge general question, but why might

one child sexually abuse another child? it's complex. orphaned children sexually harm other children sexually harm other children because they have experienced the trauma of abuse. that isn‘t to say that every child who has experienced abuse will go on to act out that behaviour on another child. but some do. there is a definite link there. there is a broader link to the trauma they might have experienced, as well, the neglect they might have experienced. but it is a complex issue here. we need to deal with the behaviour that those young people are demonstrating. that needs to be addressed with and dealt with. their trauma needs to be dealt with, as well. and the victims of those assaults need to be helped. they need to be able to recover. there is not enough of that help available eitherfor not enough of that help available either for the young children perpetrating that behaviour or the victims. you have worked on the

policy guidance with the department for education. sarah‘s issue is that she didn‘t believe her primary school knew how to deal with this at all. schools take their safeguarding really seriously. they are expert at doing this. the department for education put out a guidance on sexual harassment and sexual abuse between children for schools in december. interim guidance. it is the bible for safeguarding in schools, it'll be republished in september. the guidance was published in december because they wanted to get it out quickly. it'll become statutory when it is republished in september. the guidance is new. we set up a focus group of school leaders, both primary and secondary, to work with the department for education and others like the nspcc worked on this, and the coalition to end violence against women, and lots of other people worked on this guidance to help schools. i'm hopeful that

had this guidance been in place when this terrible incident occurred that the school would have had some guidance, would have had some resource to deal with it. i wanted to make about separating children in their class, the guidance makes clear that in serious cases such as this schools are not a court of law, they cannot make decisions on the evidence, and in this case it is below the age of criminal responsibility. but the guidance does say that as much as the victim wants it, the routine should be kept the same and they should be separated. does that mean taking the alleged perpetrator way from the class ? alleged perpetrator way from the class? there is a presumption that should happen in the guidance. but there is a big issue here for primary schools because that is a very difficult if not impossible thing to do. i spoke to the department for education yesterday. while they say they cannot write policy for every eventuality, their door is open to consider this with

experts like john and others about how you deal with a situation like this in primary school. questions on people who have been watching our programme this morning have asked, andi programme this morning have asked, and i know teachers are asking this question, john, i will put this to you, it‘s a boy under the age of ten physically capable of raping another boy? yes. some are some are not would be the correct answer. from the work we do at the nspcc, we run a programme cold turn the page which provides help for people who have perpetrated against others. if children have experienced abuse and trauma themselves, the consequence of that could be that they begin to demonstrate sexualised behaviour themselves, and can become hyper

roused themselves, as well. there is a definite link there. —— hyper aroused. we had many messages, lots of m essa g es aroused. we had many messages, lots of messages from people whose children have been abused. this message says my son was abused in class by a class member. the reaction from social services and the school was appalling. another anonymous e—mail, almost relieved to hear this item on your programme today because i was abused at school bya today because i was abused at school by a boys some month younger than me. i was seven or eight. i was a shy, lonely, bullied child. ifelt dirty and ashamed after he do this. there was nobody to tell. it leaves such damage. ben says, well done to the parents this morning having the courage to expose this event. anna,

in this particular case we know that the mother of the boy who experienced this alleged rape feels that she has had to remove her son from the school. that he isn‘t able to go to his normal clubs and so on forfear to go to his normal clubs and so on for fear of bumping into to go to his normal clubs and so on forfear of bumping into the to go to his normal clubs and so on for fear of bumping into the alleged perpetrator. that is the big issue, isn‘t it? perpetrator. that is the big issue, isn't it? it is a huge issue and a particular issue for primary schools. because they are usually much smaller, often only have one class, and a smaller area for the playground. we need to discuss this with the experts. they are openly looking at the guidance again. the owner, what do you think should happen ina owner, what do you think should happen in a scenario like that? —— fiona. we have been offering some training to schools, to the lunchtime supervisors, and to

teaching assistants in schools. to help them recognise the symptoms, the signs... we are a small organisation, so we think there should be more opportunity and support so that these situations can be dealt with quickly and early intervention definitely shows that with the right support and advice that these solutions can be found and people can overcome and move forward. i think more support and advice and, again, understanding the root causes, so that we are better informed about how to deal with the symptoms that arise. thank you very much. thanks to all of you. since recording this interview we have been told that

sarah‘s son has been awarded a sum of money by the criminal injuries compensation authority in recognition of the harm caused as a result of the sexual abuse he suffered. if you have been affected by any of the issues raised help and support are available at bbc.co.uk/actionline — or you can call for free at any time to hear recorded information — the number is 08000155 9a7. still to come... could some medicines increase the risk of dementia? we‘ll speak to one of the authors of a ten—year study into whether there is a link. mps will today hold a vote on whether the uk should stay in the customs union or not, when we leave the european union next year. the customs union is the trade agreement between eu countries, which means they are no taxes or tariffs between the countries when it comes to selling goods to each other. although the result of the vote later this afternoon won‘t have to be upheld, it could add pressure on number ten to shift its position.

theresa may wants the uk to leave the customs union, because it would mean the government would then be free to make its own trade deals with third party countries like the us and china. let‘s speak now to our political guru, norman smith. good morning. hello. today is a big moment. we will get the first round in what is shaping up to be the battle royal brexit over this issue of the customs union. it is the eu‘s trading bloc. we are in it at the moment. it means we can do business with other countries without going through tiresome border checks and controls. theresa may has made that a fundamental issue for her. it‘s a red line under scored three times, saying, we must leave that as part of brexit. it‘s a non—negotiable. some have in fact suggested that she could make it an issue of confidence in her own government. if it comes

to the decisive vote she could say to the decisive vote she could say to tory mps, you must vote for this, or you are voting against me and against my government. why is this such a big issue for her? let‘s look at the case the brexiteers make for quitting the customs union. first, they say it will free us from brussels. at the moment, in the customs union, all of our sort of trading agreements, the rules and regulations, are set in brussels, not in london. secondly, they say it will enable us to do our own trade deals. we can choose who we want to negotiate with. and it is thought we will be much more nimble and quicker. at the moment the eu has to get agreement of all 27 countries if they want to strike a trade deal. a mac can take an awfully long time. third, it‘s about global deals. —— and that can take an awfully long time. brexiteers think the future isn‘t in the eu it is in the broader

global market. they say that 90% of the expected growth in our export will come in other global areas beyond the eu. remainers are determined on this issue. what is their case? first, they say if we leave the customs union as theresa may wants that will jeopardise the peace process, because it‘ll mean that there will have to be some sort of border between northern ireland and the republic of ireland. and they fear that will fuel all of the old tensions and animosities, putting at risk the peace process. secondly they say it‘ll damage trade, it‘ll make it more complicated and bureaucratic and expensive for business if they have to undergo umpteen checks if they wa nt to to undergo umpteen checks if they want to trade with other countries in the eu, if they have to fill in loads of forms. it‘ll cost more, damage trade, and it‘ll cost us

more. lastly, they say the eu is our biggest market. why on earth would we wa nt biggest market. why on earth would we want to step out of the customs union when we have this hugely important market on our doorstep, which we are already a member of? both sides are completely at loggerheads on this issue. the dangerfor loggerheads on this issue. the danger for theresa may, as loggerheads on this issue. the dangerfor theresa may, as we know, she only has a tiny majority. she only needs a dozen tory mps to vote against her when this comes to a crunch vote. probably next month. and she could be in real, real difficulties. and if her plans for a customs union are voted down then that would be to tear up one of her, i suppose, central policies with brexit. and some brexiteers are saying, you know, if we have to stay in the customs union then that is tantamount to staying in the eu. thanks very much, norman. time for the latest news —

here‘s ben brown. alfie evans‘ father says there will be a meeting with doctors later today, to discuss taking his son home. alfie was taken off a ventilator on monday. his parents‘ latest attempt to take him abroad for treatment was dismissed by the court of appeal yesterday. violent crimes recorded by police in england and wales increased by more than a fifth last year, compared with 2016. incidents of knife crime reported to police were up by nearly a quarter, and crimes involving a gun rose by 11%. the figures do not include this year‘s wave of knife attacks in london. an official document shows that, three years ago, immigration enforcement teams were set targets to remove people regarded as having no right to stay in britain. a target of 12,000 "voluntary" departures of people with no right to remain was in the most recent inspection report into removals, published in 2015. asked about targets by mps yesterday, the home secretary, amber rudd, said that wasn‘t how her department operated. labour has been granted an urgent question on the policy

in the commons later today. a mum whose primary school—aged son was a victim of sexual abuse by a boy younger than him, says there needs to be more guidance for schools on how to deal with the issue. the boy was raped when another child was invited to his home to play. his mum says primary schools need to be given more information. i don‘t think schools know how to deal with it or the signs to look out for. they may be quite dismissive about those early signs, and they shouldn‘t be because it is all of ourjob is to safeguard children, even the little things. two italian men have been charged in connection with an attack on an irish businessman before liverpool‘s champions league match with roma on tuesday. sean cox, from county meath in ireland, is in a critical condition after the incident outside anfield. more than a0 companies have signed up to what‘s been described as a "world—leading initiative" to cut plastic pollution in britain.

they‘ve announced a number of targets, including a promise to make all plastic packaging suitable for reuse, recycling or composting by 2025. the waste reduction charity, wrap, says the businesses involved are responsible for more than 80% of the plastic packaging on products sold in british supermarkets. that‘s a summary of the latest bbc news. more from me at 11. thank you. thank you for your messages about the issue of children sexually abusing other children. helen tweets, i have never seen this talk about. it is a huge step forward in bringing to light this horrible trauma. this anonymous e—mail. thank you for bringing attention to this mostly silent drama. i was raped by my cousin at the age of seven. he was nine. i couldn‘t talk about it until several years later to mental health professionals. they struggled to

comprehend how it could happen. and ididn‘t comprehend how it could happen. and i didn‘t feel believed. they believe people don‘t want to think things like this happen. but with this exposure people can see it does happen. thank you. here‘s some sport now. good morning. real madrid have the advantage after the first leg of their champions league semifinal against bayern munich. they won in munich from behind, beating the german champions 2—1. real madrid are hoping for three european cups ina are hoping for three european cups in a row. tonight, arsenal play the first leg of their europa league semifinal against atletico madrid. winning the cup will win them a spot in next year‘s champions league. deontay wilder has made an offer of 50 million to fight anthonyjoshua. he is the wbc champion. joshua holds the other bells. both camps will meet to discuss a potential deal tomorrow. and the fifth former winner to lose at this year‘s world

snooker championship says it is because the quality of the field is getting better. neil robertson lost to robert milkins in the first round. he says they are notjust there to make up the numbers. that is your sport. thank you. we have got this tweet from kensington palace. prince harry has apparently at his brother, prince william, to be his best man at his wedding. i don‘t know if he has just asked him. the wedding is only three weeks away. that would be quite short notice. wouldn‘t it? yeah. i‘m sure it has been in the offing. they have just told us. yeah. i‘m sure it has been in the offing. they havejust told us. rins harry has asked prince william to be his best man at his wedding. that is a bit 19. new crime figures for 2017, have been released this morning, suggesting a 21% rise in violent crime in england and wales. while these figures only give us data for 2017, they still show a 22% increase in knife crimes reported to the police. but the separate crime survey — based on people‘s experiences of crime and includes offences that aren‘t reported to police —

suggests that overall levels of offending are broadly stable. our home affairs correspondent, danny shaw, is in the studio with me now, and can talk us through these statistics. let‘s talk about the large rise in violent crime for 2017 in the first set. this large rise, some of that may be due to changes in how police record crimes. but within that there is no doubt, i think, the experts have all agreed, that there are genuine increases in the most serious types of violence. we are talking stabbings, shootings, murdering is —— murders, cases of manslaughter. knife crime was up 22%. almost a0,000 offences, knife offences, reported to police last year. gun crime up 11%. robberies up

33%. murder and manslaughter, year. gun crime up 11%. robberies up 33%. murderand manslaughter, 653 in 2017. that doesn‘t include the terror attacks. that is up 5a on the previous year. that is the highest annual total since 2009. the most serious levels of violence are definitely going up. overall patterns of violence, because a lot of violence is pushing and shoving, minor assault, of violence is pushing and shoving, minorassault, harassment, it is less clear what is happening there. clearly it is the most serious levels of violence that murray —— worry most people, i would have thought. it is worth reiterating this is 2017. it does not include the first few months of this year when we know in the capital there has been an uptake in knife and other violent crime. the separate crime survey based on people‘s experiences of crime shows that things are generally stable? in fa ct, things are generally stable? in fact, according to the crime survey, overall offences were down 7%. that

is interesting because that is being driven by a big fall in computer misuse offences. apparently because there are fewer computer viruses out there. so that is the one good bit of news. we have not been caught out so much by computer viruses. is that cybercrime? yes. overall, the trend on the survey is overall levels of crime is pretty flat. what is interesting, the survey and the police figures are bold showing a rise in car crime. for years and yea rs, car rise in car crime. for years and years, car crime was falling. plummeting. but now we are seeing it going up in the survey data and the police data. we are also seeing, according to the experts, a rise in burglaries as well, which is well reported by police. there are really sir dave worrying indicators for the government, for the home office, and for householders. also, what the police data shows you is that —— is

the workload on police forces. clearly their workload is increasing considerably because of these extra crimes. thank you. danny shaw. let‘s speak now with david walls. he‘s a professor of criminology at leeds university, and a home office advisor on cybercrime. and to professorjennifer brown, deputy chair of the independent police commission, looking into the future of policing. hello to both of you. how do you react to these figures? it is not surprising that the figures are beginning to go up because the trend had been a considerable and worldwide reduction in crime rates. but to go up by bit —— this much. knife crime up 22%? it is difficult to get underneath these figures. there are different ways of recording crime. there are different offences. there are more crimes being reported. to try to disentangle it is a little

conjugated. it sounds like you are saying it is not as simple as saying there is more knife crime? what we don‘t know is the incident rate in the population, and are there differences in how crimes have been reported and recorded? it is complicated. david ball, how do you react? very much the same as jennifer. it is a combination of a numberof jennifer. it is a combination of a number of different things. clearly, there is much more evidence of violent crime. there is much more evidence of viole nt crime. but there is much more evidence of violent crime. but also, i think things like, there is a fashion trend among younger people to carry knives in ways that perhaps were not there before. but there again, within the night—time economy, bouncers are within the night—time economy, bounce rs are very within the night—time economy, bouncers are very much more attuned to knife holding and wielding and much more likely to report them to police. it is a conflict issue. it is quite worrying but also very compact. jennifer, how do you react to what danny was saying, that

police officers‘ workload, we know there has been a reduction in the number of police officers since 2010, and their workload as a result is on the increase? recent surveys i have done suggest that police officers and police staff are under enormous pressure. they are stressed. they are taking their stresses home. when you are under conditions of stress, then you are more likely to take sick leave. you‘re more likely to make mistakes. so under these conditions i think it is enormously difficult for the police to respond to an increased workload. david, you have been advising the home office on cybercrime. you will be presumably pleased to hear that cybercrime seems to be reducing. why do you think that is? the cybercrime sort of came into the crime statistics on the a few years ago. one answer is that it the a few years ago. one answer is thatitis the a few years ago. one answer is that it is settling down on how it is recorded and included. the other

issue, computerviruses, is recorded and included. the other issue, computer viruses, which have reduced the figure. you have to remember that one person who makes a computer virus can impact upon the lives of many, many different people, millions of people, potentially. so if they can catch a few virus makers, then that can cut out a large number of individual crimes. once again, bit like the knife issue, it is something that needs to be on picked. it is what we will be doing. it is reassuring that it is coming down. to repeat, you have both said it is complex. the can‘t just look to repeat, you have both said it is complex. the can‘tjust look at to repeat, you have both said it is complex. the can‘t just look at the figures. —— you can‘t. what are some of the ways we need to start reducing violent crime? what is interesting is there is a quiet revolution going on in policing. it is converting police to a graduate

profession. and the idea behind this, and underpinned by the concept of evidence —based police. and the idea is that there is a greater and closer relationship between the academic to research these things, and the police service who are designing interventions and tactics to investigate these. and also primarily to prevent. so the college of policing is instituting apprenticeship schemes for new police officers, who will be going to university as well as having practice skills from the police service that they join. practice skills from the police service that theyjoin. ant and dec inculcate —— and to inculcate more systematic research and get tactics we know work because they have reduced the been evaluated, to be used to intervene, to both investigate these and prevent them from happening. we could use that

evidence —based information now. it is nothing to do with people going to university, is it? the college of policing had what they called the what works database. officers can actually access that. there is a menu of interventions that they can now use. by and large it is not being as widely used as it should be. but this is the whole move to make investigations much more targeted and much more effective. thank you very much. thank you for coming on the programme. britain‘s biggest supermarkets and food manufacturers are this morning pledging to cut plastic pollution in the uk. at least a0 of them have signed a pact. it promises to make all plastic packaging suitable for recycling or composting by 2025. these businesses are said to be responsible for more than 80% of the plastic packaging on products sold in british supermarkets, according to the waste reduction charity, wrap.

one of the company is committed to reducing non—recyclable packaging use is procter & gamble. they make brands including head and shoulders and pampers. amy goldsmith outlined their goals for the project. absolutely delighted as being one of the founding signatories to the wrap plastic pack in the uk. court to the businesses being responsible. we have already made great progress in the last ten years with about 90% of our packaging now already recycla ble, our packaging now already recyclable, or programmes in place to recycle it. however, that is not enough. we need to continue their journey. through partnerships such as the one with rap in the uk, we are committed to making sure we go that extra mile to get to the a% of packaging being recyclable, reusable or compostable. it is that partnership that will help us.

let‘s talk to peter skelton, leading the plastics packed initiative. how are you? very well, thank you. this sounds pretty amazing. is it? yeah, it is really exciting. we have leading businesses like procter and gamble, food businesses, the government, the waste and recycling sector, all coming together because no one organisation can be the primary solution to this on their own. we have heard from procter & gamble. making the packaging recycla ble gamble. making the packaging recyclable is fantastic. but we need to recycle those bottles and we need an infrastructure to mean we can cycle that material back into useful packaging and products for a second and third life. what specifically the company is going to do? there are targets. the first is about eliminating unnecessary pieces of packaging which so easily can be littered and

cannot be recycled. the second target is about making the packaging recycla ble, target is about making the packaging recyclable, usable or compostable. the third is ambitious, improving our recycling rate from a5% to 70%. the last target is to drive the demand for recycled plastic by having all plastic packaging in the future to have a minimum of 30% recycla ble future to have a minimum of 30% recyclable parts. making sure it doesn‘t leak out into the environment, as well. why will it ta ke environment, as well. why will it take seven years? seven years isn't actually long when you think about the investing into the infrastructure. we can start, we will be starting the delivery from tomorrow, and their droppings you andi tomorrow, and their droppings you and i can do in terms of helping towards these targets. —— and there

are things. let‘s try and recycle a few more bottles per household every week. that‘ll help deliver those targets. you told us our recycling rate is a5% at the moment. is that right? for plastics, yes. that's bad. well, it needs to be a lot better. this is the cycling from households, on the go, businesses, restau ra nts. households, on the go, businesses, restaurants. the pact is ambitious. —— disses recycling from household. the strength of support from government and leading businesses means we have a great collaboration mini weekend try and hit his target seven yea rs. mini weekend try and hit his target seven years. “ mini weekend try and hit his target seven years. -- meaning we mini weekend try and hit his target seven years. “ meaning we can mini weekend try and hit his target seven years. -- meaning we can try. has this been down to david attenborough? the focus from that,

the blue planet, and other ngos has helped the momentum behind this. but we‘ve been working on this for six months. the uk pact is part of a planned network of packeds going globally. what we need to do to get in line with other countries? we are good at recycling things like plastic bottles but we need to get better at recycling some of those other things. we don‘t have a big reliance on energy waste. we can use it as reliance on energy waste. we can use itasa reliance on energy waste. we can use it as a valuable resource. we can keep it out of the environment and within the economy. that is at the heart of the pact. we would be leading the way if we transform our system, as we hope to, under the pact. we will get reaction from stephen eisman who runs the plastic free aisle in denmark. a0 companies

saying they will get rid of plastics that cannot be recycled, and use more plastic that can be recycled. that cannot be recycled, and use more plastic that can be recycledlj more plastic that can be recycled.” heard the news. it‘s a great of 11. what is even greater is that they are not just what is even greater is that they are notjust talking about recycla ble are notjust talking about recyclable plastic but also compostable plastics. we have a huge problem. the solution isn‘t only one way. you have to find lots of different solutions. compostables is definitely one for the future. it‘s good a lot of companies are also starting to talk about this aspect. we could still have better quality compostables. more companies involved means better packaging. how does your plastic free aisle work? we set

it up to show people that it is possible to do it. we opened up a store which still has the convenience. all of the items are in packaging, but they are in compostable packaging. we also use paper. package free for vegetables. you do not need to pack them really because they have natural packaging. we can show that it is possible today to shop plastic free. cool, thanks very much. some more messages from you about the issue of children sexually abusing other children. many of you have said you have never heard of this before, and quite a few of you are saying that you are glad we are talking about this today because this has been a secret trauma, some of you have said, in your life or in the lives of your children. this was anonymous, i

didn‘t realise this happened to other people. i was four when my cousin started abusing me, he was nine. i told cousin started abusing me, he was nine. itold my cousin started abusing me, he was nine. i told my mum. cousin started abusing me, he was nine. itold my mum. she cousin started abusing me, he was nine. i told my mum. she didn‘t do anything about it. i‘ve never told anybody else. i‘ve been living with the guilt for over 20 years disgusted at myself. thank you for bringing up the subject. i had no idea this happened to other people too. hopefully i can now get some help and talk about what happened to me. another e—mail says, this isn‘t a new issue but like many others it has come to light because it has been raised by a brave mum. i was sexually assaulted by a boy in my street several times when i was eight. he was a year older than me. i was terrified to tell anyone even though i suffered physical injuries. i had to see this boy almost every day until i left home when i was 16. thank you very much for sharing those stories. drugs prescribed to treat to depression, bladder conditions and parkinsons are being linked with an increase risk of dementia.

a new study published today in the british medicaljournal claims up to two million people in england are likely to be to taking one of the anti—cholinergics. that isn‘t how you say it is it? that isn't how you say it is it? you we re that isn't how you say it is it? you were good, anti—cholinergics. here to discuss this further is professor chris fox is a consultant psychiatrist at the university of east anglia, he‘s been working on this study for 10 years. and professor helen stokes—lampard is a gp and the chair of royal college of general practitioners. professor chris fox is a consultant psychiatrist at the university of east anglia, he‘s been working on this study for 10 years — dr clare walton is from the alzheimer‘s society. they have actually funded the research. our audience might be alarmed to hear this initially. what have you found? good morning. we found in a

study of 300,000 people that there was an increased risk of certain types of medication with the instant of dementia. the types of medication we found were antidepressants of certain times. blatter medication. and parkinson's medication. —— bladder. what should we do? we need to think about medication management and review. this sharpens up the focus on these particular drugs and the risk for dementia. my view, and what i'm doing clinically at the moment because i'm clinically active, when i see people on these medicines which i haven't prescribed, i write to their prescribers saying you could seek alternatives. i would also talk about lifestyle factors. and in between we make a decision. there are equally effective medicines that are equally effective medicines that are no more expensive that do not do

this. 0k. are no more expensive that do not do this. ok. let me talk to claire walton, research manager from this. ok. let me talk to claire walton, research managerfrom the alzheimer‘s society. you funded this research. how do you react to the outcome? this is important. these medications have been linked to an increased risk of dementia before but this is the largest and most robust study to follow—up on that. we think it's large enough and that the data is strong enough that prescribers should really be considering the long—term of these drugs. just be clear, how much of an increased risk? it varies between the different types of medications. topped with 30% increased risk with some types. —— got up to a 30% increased risk. we are talking about a long time. people shouldn't be rushing out to stop their prescriptions. definitely not. they don't need to take urgent action. but if they are concerned they

should speak to their gp or pharmacist. it's something we should be thinking about in the long term because there are safer alternatives available in most cases. you said a 30% increased risk. available in most cases. you said a 3096 increased risk. up to 3096, depending on the drugs. 3096 increased risk. up to 3096, depending on the drugsm 3096 increased risk. up to 3096, depending on the drugs. it could be 196, it depending on the drugs. it could be 1%, it could be 30%, depending on the individual and the drugs they are taking. helen, you are a gp. you would potentially people —— you will potentially have people coming to you after hearing this research. they are taking some of the drugs, perhaps, what would you say to them? i would tell them not to panic. this is good, high quality research. it adds to what we already know about various drugs. some of them seem to be associated with a higher risk of dementia but we don‘t have proof of it causing dementia. that is important to understand. sometimes these drugs will have been given to

people who may be starting to develop dementia because some of the symptoms mean they may need help with bladder problems. so sometimes it is the people already developing dementia that are given the drug so it is complicated on pick. chris fox has said there are alternatives to this. —— complicated to unpick. sometimes we discussed things like, is this the best medication for this person. —— discuss. we talk about patients having possible risk factors. but for some people these are the only drugs that work. if you are the only drugs that work. if you are depressed and we have finally found an antidepressant which helps you or helps you to function, or you warrant older person who has been stuck on —— at home because of

bladder problems, we finally found a drug to help you, then it is more difficult. —— all you are an older person. i would argue if the patient needs to take the medicine any more anyway. it is difficult to stop antidepressants because you worry about the illness coming back. the feedback i've had from prescribers is that they worry if they stop it it'll get worse. why, i often say. if they are not suicidal, none of these conditions are going to kill you, perhaps having a medication holiday and then discussing the best option. with depression i would be careful. we wean people off medication, it is a great practice but it takes time. with medication for bladder, you can try a medication holiday, that‘s sensible.

sometimes people don‘t like taking these drugs for all sorts of reasons and people sometimes taken for ways that they are not prescribed properly for. you need to talk to the prescriber who can talk to your individual situation. we should be having at least annual reviews anyway. general practice is under pressure. i want greater time spent on my patients so we can do this stuff properly. i would be putting ina plea, stuff properly. i would be putting in a plea, this evidence, along with other evidence, all proves that we need longer appointments with our patients. you can make that happen. idomy patients. you can make that happen. i do my best. it is ten minutes at the moment. what should it be? 20. for confiscated patients. thank you —— for complicated patients. thanks for watching today. back tomorrow at 9. and we also want to say thank you to our amazing editor louisa compton who‘s leaving soon — she‘s been absolutely brilliant, we are really going

to miss her and we wish her so much luck in her nextjob. thank you, louisa. more april showers in today‘s forecast. the england and wales those showers not as widespread or frequent as they were yesterday. saying that, there will be the odd one dotted around in between sunny spells. the most frequent showers will be across the far north around scotla nd will be across the far north around scotland and northern ireland. hale and fonda mixed income as well. breezy conditions here, between 11

and 12 degrees. further south, longer spells of sunshine, maybe up to 17 celsius. the cloud increases in the south—west. with that common rain moving in for friday. —— with that, rain moving in for friday. for scotla nd that, rain moving in for friday. for scotland and northern ireland and the far north of england, it should stay largely dry in the morning. but heavier showers developing in the afternoon. hangeland thunder mixed in. for england and wales, lots of cloud, outbreaks of rain. —— ha ilstones cloud, outbreaks of rain. —— hailstones and thunder mixed in. this is bbc news, and these are the top stories developing at 11. the home secretary admits her

department did have targets to remove people from the uk — a day after claiming they didn‘t exist — but says they were local and never published. overall violent crime increased by 21% in england and wales, knife crime increased by nearly a quarter the parents of alfie evans will meet doctors later today to discuss taking him home. also, talks between the uk and spain over the future of gibraltar after brexit. gibraltar‘s chief minister tells the bbc that he‘s open to the idea of spain sharing the use of gibraltar airport tsb calls in outside help to help fix the banking system breakdown that has left half of its customers u na ble to access