the stream of lager from the stream of lagerfrom kilauea has reached the east coat and cut off a key evacuation route —— lather. china and the us have agreed not to impose new tariffs on each other‘s goods. the trump administration suspends the talks to work on a wider trade agreement. the royal wedding is still trending online. the duchess of sussex has followed royal tradition by laying her bouquet on the tomb of the unknown warrior at westminster abbey. the royal family thanked the tens of thousands of people who travelled to windsor for the wedding on saturday. more to come here later on bbc world news. first, it is hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i stephen

sackur. on may the 25th irish voters face a choice, by way of a referendum, they can keep a constitutional amendment which outlaws abortion in all but the most exceptional circumstances or they can change their constitution and pave the way for the legalisation of abortion. given ireland's history, culture and religion it is a fierce debate. i'm joined by two campaigners, sinead redmond, an advocate of expanding abortion rights, and caroline symons, an opponent. what does the argument and the likelier outcome say about ireland today. sinead redmond and caroline simons,

welcome to hardtalk. sinead, let me start with you. ireland is an outlier on this question of abortion, if one looks across the european union. ireland's laws are much more restrictive than the average across europe. why do you think that is? there is a cultural and historical context in which we have traditionally been a catholic country and we are an outlier in terms of abortion access but similar to malta which also has the same cultural and historical context. there is also the fact we are a post—colonial nations so traditionally they find their own identity in different ways from the coloniser and our difference was that we are a catholic country so there was a long history of self identification with the catholic

nation as part of what it meant to be irish. that identification and at that level of, i think, be irish. that identification and at that level of, ithink, probably controlled by the catholic church has been slipping away over the last 20 or 30 years and we've seen it in the referendums of the 1990s, such as the 1995 divorce referendum which allowed irish citizens to divorce the first time and we also saw it in 1992 which was the referendum around a 14—year—old girl who had been raped and made pregnant and whose pa rents raped and made pregnant and whose parents wanted her to be taken to the uk for access to an abortion. the attorney general at the time, because of the existing constitutional amendment passed in 1983 considered it illegal and attempted to prevent from travelling. the supreme court hearing found because there was a risk to life of suicide because she was suicidalfrom being made pregnant through rate, the supreme court found she had the right to an

abortion and it was subsequently upheld. i will stop you there because there's a lot of detail about legal cases but the line of argument is clear and caroline i will turn to you. sinead is saying in essence that we to understand that ireland has been heavily influenced by the catholic church and religious dogma and which gradually over time over the last 30 yea rs gradually over time over the last 30 years is changing. ireland is fundamentally changing their ball of these social conventions and laws governing things like abortion must change as well. would you accept that? i wouldn't accept the last point that they must change to but i would agree with a lot of what sinead has said. the constitution as drafted in 1937 refers to the judeo christian heritage and the laws are founded by the people. that was the understanding. no doubt about it, there has been a slippage in a religious observance across all christian faith is in ireland. would

you accept that this debate about abortion which comes to a head on may 25 with a referendum can be seen in the context of votes over the last 20 years on divorce, on gay marriage, on different social conventions where ireland is getting closer to the european liberal progressive mainstream 7 closer to the european liberal progressive mainstream? you might characterise it as progressive but i would disagree with the adjective. i don't think so. in more recent decades and particularly in the last decades and particularly in the last decade it seems the human rights issue and whether you agree and there's a suggestion there is a human right to abortion, which we know there reason, people are looking at it not from a religious perspective, as we have seen muslim and the presbyterian church come out against the referendum so it's not simply the catholic church, but it goes beyond religion. people look upon it as a medical issue and human rights law issue and we have not

seen much involvement from the church in fact in the campaign. let's explore the human rights issue as it stands. we know women in ireland to get pregnant and don't wa nt to ireland to get pregnant and don't want to be pregnant and some have real serious medical concerns either with the unborn child or themselves, others as a choice do not at that moment want to be pregnant. we know that women in ireland can get abortions and it's not illegal, but they have to go outside the country and most go to the uk and some to other parts of europe. isn't there just a fundamental hypocrisy about that and also a denial of the rights of irish women to actually have something that is illegal abroad, haveit something that is illegal abroad, have it accessible at home. is that a basic right? i don't think you can describe it that way. we have a different culture in ireland. when we talk about terminating pregnancy, which is legal in ireland now, we mean terminating the pregnancy, not

terminating the foetus and that's the difference between abortion and what the law currently allows. to be clear to the listeners. right now the only circumstances in which a termination, as you put it, is where the life of the mother is in immediate danger. it doesn't have to be in immediate danger, that's another misapprehension. we allow termination of pregnancy weather is a real substantial risk to the mother 's a real substantial risk to the mother '5 life, including by her own threat of suicide and the wrist is not have to be or imminent but there is clear. is that right? i think most of the clinicians across the country disagree with the description. we have seen leading obstetricians, to say yes in the campaignforan obstetricians, to say yes in the campaign for an abortion is where we needed. the institutions of obstetricians and gynaecologists have approximately 80% of members in

favour. a number of leading obstetricians, numbers of others, even obstetricians, numbers of others, eve n a cross obstetricians, numbers of others, even across the country are coming and strongly saying we need the aid is to be repealed to protect women health and pregnancies. may i come in? you may, buti health and pregnancies. may i come in? you may, but i want to expand the thought further. we know that women go abroad to get terminations, abortions, and i believe the figures are roughly averaging at around ten per day are doing it in ireland, so roughly 4000 women a year women and girls, because some are under the age of consent, who are those abortions. we have case studies, just give you jennifer ryan she describes a nightmare situation where she had a scan at 22 weeks and her baby had no chance at all of survival, really severe form of

spina bifida. she took the choice that she had to terminate and went to liverpool and she had to bring back, because she wanted to bury the unborn child, she had to bring that child back in a coffin in the boot of her car. this was from liverpool in england. what kind of country puts a woman in that situation? can ijust come back first of all, because i think it's important people are clear about this, under the rules which govern the practice of medicine in ireland, it's very clear under article 48 of the code of practice for doctors that they do not have to wait until a woman is dying, that they may intervene or end a pregnancy whether the risk is to their mother 's end a pregnancy whether the risk is to their mother '5 life and it does not have to be immediate and that is the end of it. that is the law and thatis the end of it. that is the law and that is what doctors are supposed to understand. to say that some obstetricians have come out, 80%,

thatis obstetricians have come out, 80%, that is incorrect. that is a matter of difference between the two of you. that is a matter of fact. the five previous heads of the institute of obstetricians and gynaecologists have come out against the current head and 18 signed a letter two days ago to step aside while the referendum words going on because he has no mandate to campaign. you said it was a matter of human rights and i'm focused on the human right of this particular woman. it is a case study, one of many, and she is called jennifer ryan who discovered that her unborn child had severe form of spina bifida and no chance of survival and had to go to liverpool to have a termination and then had to bring the body back for burial in the boot of her car, and i'm asking you whether you think you wa nt to i'm asking you whether you think you want to live in ireland which forces women into that situation. would it be any different if she had to bring it back to durham? should she not have the right to do that amongst herfamily, her loved have the right to do that amongst her family, her loved ones, have the right to do that amongst herfamily, her loved ones, in her own home and community? we have a

different ethos in the practice of medicine in ireland. we do not hasten or deliberately caused the death of any patient whether it is an elderly or infirm patient or a baby in the womb. that isn't an option in ireland. i know people come to in a dab terminations done and to deliver a dead foetus anne bury at and i know they fill out forms to say how they want the remains to be disposed of, that's the same if you are english or irish. the human rights council of the united nations has looked at this a couple of times and concluded that ireland has failed to strike the right balance between the protection of the features on the rights of women. they say the irish situation imposes a high level of mental anguish which amounts to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment on irish women in these situations. let's look at that. there are six committees at the un how will have been highly critical of our abortion laws and have issued

edicts dictating we should change them according to their diktats. the fa ct them according to their diktats. the fact is, there are no committees who have power to either expand or interpret the conventions and the treaties which they monitor. they can simply monitor and report. their statements and conclusions are not binding on us and it was clear...m might give you pause for thought. binding on us and it was clear...m might give you pause for thoughtm might give you pause for thoughtm might indeed and when you look at the european court of human rights decision that they have seen where countries who have a margin of appreciation to make their own laws in relation to the broughton and other controversial issues, they acce pt other controversial issues, they accept the balance we have struck but have suggested also that where we have allowed abortion in our law we have allowed abortion in our law we must make it clear and women must know when they can access it, so thatis know when they can access it, so that is the legal position. know when they can access it, so that is the legal positionlj know when they can access it, so that is the legal position. i focus quite a few questions on you, caroline, so, sinead, to flip around the human rights argument, there is

an argument put forward by campaigners like caroline that we know so much more today than we've ever known before about how the foetus develops in the womb and to quote doctor, sherborne crowley, who is on the pro—life side, she says, we now know a baby's heartbeat sta rts we now know a baby's heartbeat starts at 22 days and a 12—week—old unborn baby has a beating heart can swallow, yawn, kick, stretch and jump, move all the legs, fingers, toes, vital organs, responds to touch, fully formed face, this is a person and the latest scanning an ultrasound techniques talus exactly what this foetus can do, even by 12 weeks, which of the law changes in ireland, will be the threshold before which any woman can get an abortion on demand. it's important to point out that doctor crowley has been strongly contradicted on that argument by many leading

obstetricians and also a investigative special that ran in ireland calling the claims are accurate. more than that, it's important to highlight that not only is it not necessarily about how we feel about the development of an individual pregnancy but how each woman 01’ individual pregnancy but how each woman or person that becomes pregnant and family that deals with the pregnancy feels about each individual pregnancy. your feelings about an individual pregnancy will depend on your circumstances and yourfamily situation depend on your circumstances and your family situation and you have talked already about how women are travelling for abortions they are not allowed to access in ireland but it's also important to note that not only ten women today are travelling but also three to five women are self administering without medical ca re self administering without medical care andi self administering without medical care and i know because i've been involved in providing that bill to dozens involved in providing that bill to d oze ns of involved in providing that bill to dozens of women? have you? you have fundamentally broken the law? so you're telling me that. i have testified to it numerous times. the irish authorities should under the

letter of the law... under the letter of the law... under the letter of the law... under the letter of the law they should lock me up and the other three to five women and their partners and everyone else to support them everyday. so, caroline, not only does she think the law is fundamentally wrong she also thinks it isa fundamentally wrong she also thinks it is a mockery because the irish authorities are not following through on it. it has been described by the head of the biggest independent abortion provider in britain as a staggering problem in the uk as well. you are both mothers and highly respected members of your communities. can you look her in the eye and say what she's just told us about the fact she has helped women administer themselves a pill which is an abortion pill, do you regard her as a child killer? i regard her as putting women at risk and we have found the irish family planning association has given similar bad advice to women saying when they come back from the uk they should tell doctors they are miscarrying rather than having had abortions. it

isa rather than having had abortions. it is a pill that is a problem across europe where it is legal and i think it's terribly important we let the listeners know what we are voting on on friday on the 25th of may because we are not voting on decriminalising abortion. we are voting on decriminalising it for women. we are voting to that on friday, if you like. we are not voting on legislation or decriminalising, we are voting on a simple question. will the people agree to take out of the constitution the pro—life article that went in in 1983 which acknowledges and recognises the equal right to the mother and...m gives equal rights to the on—board child as to the mother. it undertakes to defend and vindicate the right as is practical. so there's a built—in understanding that the mothers rights and life will come first and sometimes in looking after her, baby will die. will come first and sometimes in looking after her, baby will diem you win on may 25, the argument from

the pro—life people as there will be a massive surge in the numbers of abortions and some irish women who would not have had abortions because they would not made a decision go overseas and go through all the stress and anguish and hassle it entails that they will have abortions because they are easier to get home so the overall number abortions in ireland will go up. do you accept that? i don't. it's not consistent with what we see internationally. in portugal in 2017 -- 2007 internationally. in portugal in 2017 —— 2007 they had a similar vote to the one being proposed in ireland and in the subsequent ten years since they allowed women access to abortion with their medical provider showed —— should it be appealed —— repealed on the 25th of may. what they have seen is there has been a deep crease from the 2007 rate of abortions to 2017 with making it safe and legal for women to access

abortions and that women are safe in maternity care and in accessing abortion. we are not arguing that there should be no abortion or some abortion. there is some abortion a nyway abortion. there is some abortion anyway regardless of how this bogo is, and that that abortion should be safe for women and it is not at the moment —— regardless of how this boat goes. one thing we have not mentioned is the role of the catholic church. we talk about the history, but the role in the campaign running up to may the 25th and it seems the church has taken a back seat and a background role and i wonder if that is because frankly the catholic church in ireland today is deeply tainted and its boys and credibility have been undermined by a series of scandals —— its voice. many concerning sexuality, paedophile priests, and the treatment of young girls who became pregnant and was shunted off into institutions which treated them

abysmally and often left their babies in unmarked graves. as all of that undermined the church's ability to be part of the campaign?” that undermined the church's ability to be part of the campaign? i think the problems you are describing aren't so lead —— solely confined to ireland, we have the same thing with clergy and america and england and other places. i can't answer that the catholic church but in the churches around ireland preachers are speaking about the referendum and explain to people what the consequences of and explain to people what the consequences of removal of the amendment would be. so you are happy to be associated, you're part of the campaign, in lockstep with the catholic church? you are saying that. i am asking whether you want to be associated with the catholic church. i don't know what kind of level of appreciation for the kind of campaign there is in britain and the listeners internationally, bert this is a campaign being led on both

sides by lay people and all churches are summing to say about it to their congregations but you won't find in debates like this and in current affairs programmes, you don't find the clergy of any hue getting involved. they look after their own flock in their own congregations. this has become more of a legal and medical and then personal campaign. it's those kinds of issues that are exercising people. it would be nice if we had an opportunity to explain to the listeners why i would regard many people would regard what is being proposed in ireland and is more liberal and that is in england and why people are so concerned with the proposals the government have. very briefly, sinead, the contention of caroline and her campaign is that of caroline and her campaign is that of the irish government proceeds with legislation and it goes in favour of repealing the amendment and opening up legislation to legalise abortion, the argument from caroline's legalise abortion, the argument from ca roline's camp is

legalise abortion, the argument from caroline's camp is that the plan appears to be to allow abortions on demand without any reference to a doctor. that is not the case. that is more liberal than the uk. there would be a gp and a doctor involved and they want to take this into step with the rest of the eu, unlike the uk, where you have abortions on request up to 12 weeks with your primary health care provider or alternative doctor if needs be. thereafter it will be considerably more restrictive than the uk because there will be no grounds for access on disability grounds, no grounds for access on risk to health, which is the current grounds in the uk. so your contention is it will be a more conservative system than the uk? absolutely. the definition proposed in the legislation is that of assist —— risks to serious harm to health which is defined legal term in use in ireland already. it's a very higher threshold of evidentiary need to pass and requires to doctors, one

of whom must be an obstetrician to certify the risk. let's park that the now because there's something interesting written by an irish writer, patrick mccabe, who said, look, i think that there may be a way in which this irish referendum vote on the specific issue of abortion may tap into feeling is that we have seen for example in the american election of donald trump or in the british embrace of brexit in the referendum in the uk, it's about the referendum in the uk, it's about the nonmetropolitan people of ireland being really fed up with a metropolitan elite telling them how to think and how to behave and he says that might feed into actually a surprise victory for the pro—life campaign. this is very different from the campaigns you mention in that this is a grassroots bed campaign. it has been pushed up by the ground from the needs of women and girls and families to have

abortion access and care provided in ireland in our maternity system because it is dangerous not to have that. what i see on the grounds where i live... and you live in the country, far from dublin.” where i live... and you live in the country, far from dublin. i do. i live half an hour ‘s drive from the nearest big town to me. the nearest village to me has a population of 400 people. what we are seeing is huge swathes of the community around us huge swathes of the community around us very, very strongly in support of the campaign. we have people out leafleti ng the campaign. we have people out leafleting and canvassing every night of the week in small, small towns and villages. the other way of interpreting the polling evidence in the run—up to polling day is that the run—up to polling day is that the abortion rights camp appears to have a small lead and not least a significant lead amongst young irish people and i wonder how you think you can close that gap?” people and i wonder how you think you can close that gap? i don't think it's necessarily the case. i think it's necessarily the case. i think people are beginning to understand this cannot be restrictive legislation. if we

re move restrictive legislation. if we remove the eighth amendment, any restrict man —— restriction in parliament will crumble with a constitutional cat challenge because the only rights holder will be the mother after that and there's no evidence whatsoever that the maternal care in ireland is substandard. we have better statistics and health outcomes than you have in the uk. do you think it will be very close, this boat?” don't know. i think it will probably be quite close and i hope we carry it in the end. sinead redmond and caroline simons, thanks for being here. thank you. thank you both very much. there's more dry and sunny weather to come this week like we saw on sunday afternoon, areas of mist and sea fog in the north sea like we sought from one of our weather watchers in north yorkshire and there will be the whole rain cloud with rain in stornoway with rain to ta ke with rain in stornoway with rain to take us through the first part of

monday and it all links into this weather front which develops a bit further as we go through the night with little pulses of heavy rain taking us to dawn and keeping temperatures up, but elsewhere another fresh start to mandate particularly across eastern parts of england where there will be missed and low cloud becoming dominant and pushing in from the north sea. that would go back to the coast in the day so lots of dry and sunny weather elsewhere, a bright day in southern eastern scotland, western parts of wales by the north west of scotland and northern ireland will will see further outbreaks which will fizzle out through the afternoon. in the afternoon, looking across the south, we seek sporadic showers, maybe the odd rumble of thunder, south—east england, the midlands, the south—west and drifting away on an easterly wind. most places will be dry, sticking with sunshine and temperatures in the low 20s. kular where we see the sea fog ling on the coast and a pleasant day in southern scotland. londonderry stays dampened further outbreaks of rain in the

hebrides and it will be call. the rain will fizzle out through the night and into tuesday morning at a bit chilly in the northern side of that would clear skies developing. further south, more mist and sea fog rolling back in across eastern parts of scotla nd rolling back in across eastern parts of scotland and england but for many not as cold as it has been. the showers we see on monday are all in this broader development of europe which inches forward on tuesday. high pressure builds in the north and that kills it off with some patchy rain and drizzle across northern ‘s parts of scotland but for orkney and shetland, a brighter day and a brighter day than northern ireland feeling warmer, plenty of warmth in the sunshine through england and wales although we will see one or two isolated showers. into wednesday, high pressure with more of a hold, and misty start across eastern scotland where the summer across eastern scotland where the summer ball will be a struggle to brighten up but the most lots of sunshine around in a few showers

edging towards the channel, but most will stay dry on wednesday and pleasa ntly warm will stay dry on wednesday and pleasantly warm under that strong sunshine overhead. that's the story for the week. there will be thunderstorms close to southern areas but most places will be dry with a bit of sunshine and warm. —— warmth. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore, the headlines: a lava flow from the kilauea volcano in hawaii reaches the coast — prompting warnings of a toxic gas cloud. lava spurting into the air and you can hear it even from this distance. people who live nearby say at times their homes have been shaken by the sheer force of the eruptions. back from the brink of a costly trade war — the us and china agree not to impose new tariffs on each other‘s goods. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: the polls have closed in venezuela's presidential election where the opposition accuses the government of intimidating voters. cheering and applause the royal family thank the public for their support