these are the headlines: nicolas maduro has been declared the winner of venezuela's presidential election. the electoral commission said mr maduro had won 5.8 million votes. 1.8 million venezuelans cast their ballots for his opposition challenger, henri falcon. turnout was said to be 46%. people on the big island of hawaii are being warned to stay away from molten rock flowing into the ocean from the eruption of mount kilauea. lava pouring into the pacific has created hazardous clouds, bearing acid and particles of glass. lava streams have caused a key evacuation route to be cut off. and, the authorities fighting an outbreak of ebola in the democratic republic of congo insist that they are prepared for a worst—case scenario — one in which the deadly virus reaches the capital, kinshasa. about 25 people have already died in a remote area, upstream on the congo river. those are the headlines.

now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. on may the 25th, irish voters face a choice, by way of a referendum, they can keep a constitutional amendment which outlaws abortion in all but the most exceptional circumstances, or they can change their constitution and pave the way for the legalisation of abortion. given ireland's history, culture and religion, it is a fierce debate. i'm joined by two campaigners, sinead redmond, an advocate of expanding abortion rights, and caroline simons, an opponent. what does the argument and the likelier outcome say about ireland today? sinead redmond and caroline simons, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you. sinead, let me start with you. ireland is an outlier on this question of abortion, if one looks across the european union. ireland's laws much more restrictive than the average across europe. why do you think that is? there's a cultural and historical context in which we have traditionally been a catholic country, we are an outlier in terms of our abortion access but we are quite similar to malta, which also has the same cultural and historical context. there is also the fact

we are a post—colonial nations so traditionally they find their own identity in different ways from the coloniser, and our difference was a catholic country so there was a long history of self identification with the catholic nation as part of what it meant to be irish. that identification and that level of, i think, probably control by the catholic church has been slipping away gradually over the last 20 or 30 years, we've seen it in the referendums of the 1990s, such as the 1995 divorce referendum which allows irish citizens to divorce for the first time and we also saw it in 1992, which was the referendum around a 14—year—old girl who had been raped and made pregnant and whose parents wanted to take her to the uk for access to an abortion. the attorney general at the time, because of the existing constitutional amendment passed in 1983, considered this illegal at the time and attempted

to prevent from travelling. the supreme court hearing found because there was a risk to life of suicide because she was suicidal from being made pregnant through rape, the supreme court found she had the right to an abortion and it was subsequently upheld. i am going to stop you there because there's a lot of detail about legal cases, but your line of argument is clear and caroline, i will turn to you. sinead is saying in essence, that we have to understand that ireland has been heavily influenced by the catholic church and religious dogma, which gradually over time over the last 30 years is changing. ireland is fundamentally changing and therefore all of these social conventions and laws governing things like abortion must change as well. would you accept that? i wouldn't accept the last point that they must change, but i would agree with a lot of what sinead has said. the constitution as drafted in 1937

refers to the judeo christian heritage and the laws are founded by the people. that certainly was the understanding. there's no doubt about it, there has been a slippage in religious observance across all christian faiths in ireland over the last decades. would you accept that this debate about abortion, which comes to a head on may 25 with a referendum, can be seen in the context of votes over the last 20 years on divorce, on gay marriage, on different social conventions where ireland is getting closer to the european liberal progressive mainstream? you might characterise it as progressive and again, i would disagree with your adjective. i don't think so. in more recent decades and particularly in the last decade, it seems the human rights issue, and whether you agree there's a suggestion there is a human right to an abortion, which we know there isn't, people are looking at it not from a religious perspective, as we have seen muslim

and the presbyterian church come out against this referendum, so it's not simply the catholic church, but it goes beyond religion. people look upon it as a medical issue, as a human rights law issue, and we have not seen very much involvement from the church, in fact, in the campaign. let's explore the human rights issue as it stands. we know that women in ireland to get pregnant and don't want to be pregnant, and some have real serious medical concerns either with the unborn child or with themselves, others as a choice do not at that moment want to be pregnant. we know that women in ireland can get abortions and it's not illegal, but they have to go outside the country. most go to the uk, some go to other parts of europe. isn't there just a fundamental hypocrisy about that and also a denial of the rights of irish women to actually have something that is illegal abroad, have it accessible at home. isn't that a basic right? i don't think that you can describe it that way.

i mean, we have a different culture in ireland. when we talk about terminating pregnancy, which is legal in ireland now, we mean terminating the pregnancy, not terminating the foetus, and that's the difference between abortion and what the law currently allows. to be clear to the listeners. right now, the only circumstances in which a termination, as you put it, is legal is where the life of the mother is in immediate danger. no, it doesn't have to be in immediate danger. that's another misapprehension. we allow termination of pregnancy where there is a real and substantial risk to the mother's life, including by her own threat of suicide and the risk does not have to be imminent, but clear. is that right? i think most of the clinicians across the country disagree with the description. we have seen leading obstetricians, to say yes in the campaign

for an abortion is where we needed. the institution of obstetricians and gynaecologists have approximately 80% of members in favour. a number of leading obstetricians, numbers of others, across the country, are coming out and strongly saying we need the aid to be repealed to protect women health and pregnancies. may i come in? you may, but i want to expand the thought further. we know that women do go abroad to get terminations, abortions, and i believe the figures are roughly averages out at around ten per day are doing it in ireland, so roughly 4000 women a year, women and girls, because some are under the age of consent, who are those abortions. we have case studies,

just to give you an example, jennifer ryan, she describes a nightmare situation where she had a scan at 22 weeks and her baby had no chance at all of survival, a really severe form of spina bifida. she took the choice that she had to terminate and went to liverpool and she had to bring — because she wanted to bury the unborn child which had been terminated — she had to bring that child back in a coffin in the boot of her car, from liverpool in england. what kind of country puts a woman in that situation? can ijust come back first of all, because i think it's important people are clear about this, under the rules which govern the practice of medicine in ireland, it's very clear under article 48 of the code of practice for doctors that they don't have to wait until a woman is dying, that they may intervene or end a pregnancy where there is a risk

to the mother's life and it does not have to be immediate and that is the end of it. that is the law and that is what doctors are supposed to understand. to say that some obstetricians have come out, 80%, that is incorrect. that is a matter of difference between the two of you. no, that is a matter of fact, stephen. the five previous heads of the institute of obstetricians and gynaecologists have come out against the current head and 18 signed a letter two days ago to step aside while the referendum words going on because he has no mandate to campaign. you said it was a matter of human rights and i'm focused on the human right of this particular woman. it is a case study, one of many, and she is called jennifer ryan and discovered that her unborn child had a severe form of spina bifida and no chance of survival and had to go to liverpool to have a termination, and she then had to bring the body back for burial in the boot of her car,

and i'm asking you whether you think you want to live in an ireland which forces women into that situation. would it be any different if she had to bring it back to durham? should she not have the right to do that amongst her family, her loved ones, in her own home and community? you see, we have a different ethos, so far, in the practice of medicine in ireland. we don't hasten or deliberately caused the death of any patient, whether it's an elderly or infirm patient or a baby in the womb. so that isn't an option in ireland. i know people come to england to have terminations done and to deliver a dead foetus, and i know they fill out forms to say how they want the remains to be disposed of, that's the same if you are english or irish. the human rights council of the united nations has looked at this a couple of times and concluded that ireland has failed to strike the right balance between the protection of the foetus and the rights of women. they say quote, "the irish situation imposes a high level of mental anguish which amounts to cruel,

inhuman and degrading treatment on irish women in these situations." well, let's look at that. there are six committees at the un who have been highly critical of our abortion laws and have issued edicts dictating we should change them according to their diktat. the fact is, none of these committees have power to either expand or interpret the conventions and the treaties which they monitor. they can simply monitor and report. their statements and their conclusions are not binding on us, and it was very, very clear... it might give you pause for thought, though. it might indeed, and when you look at the european court of human rights's decision that they have seen where countries who have a margin of appreciation to make their own laws in relation to abortion and other controversial issues, they accept the balance we have struck but have suggested also that where we have allowed abortion in our law, that we must make it clear and the women must know

when they can access it, so that's the legal position. i've focus quite a few questions on you, caroline, so, sinead, to flip around the human rights argument, there is an argument put forward by campaigners like caroline that we know so much more today than we've ever known before about how the foetus develops in the womb, and to quote a doctor sherborne crowley, who is on the pro—life side of this argument, she says, look, we now know a baby's heartbeat starts at 22 days, a 12—week—old unborn baby has a beating heart can swallow, yawn, kick, stretch and jump, has all his or her legs, fingers, toes, vital organs, responds to touch, fully formed face, this is a person and the latest scanning and ultrasound techniques tell us exactly what this foetus can do, even by 12 weeks, which if the law changes in ireland, will be the threshold before which any woman can get an abortion on demand. so i think it's important to point

out that dr crowley has been strongly contradicted on that argument by many leading obstetricians and also a primetime investigative special that ran in ireland this week found those claims to be accurate. more than that, it's important to highlight that not only is it not necessarily about how we feel about the development of an individual pregnancy, but how each woman or person that becomes pregnant and the family that deals with the pregnancy feels about each individual pregnancy. your feelings about an individual pregnancy will depend on your circumstances, depend on your family situation, and you talked already about how women are travelling for abortions they are not allowed to access in ireland, but it's also important to note that not only are ten women a day travelling but also three to five women are self administering without medical care, and i know because i've been involved in providing that pill

to dozens of women. have you? you've fundamentally broken the law? so you're telling me that. i have testified to it numerous times. the irish authorities should really under the letter of the law, be locking you up. under the letter of the law, they should lock me up and the other three to five women and their partners and everyone else who supports them everyday. so, caroline, not only does she think the law is fundamentally wrong she also thinks it is a mockery because the irish authorities are not following through on it. it has been described by the head of the biggest independent abortion provider in britain as a staggering problem in the uk as well. you are both mothers and highly respected members of your communities. can you look her in the eye and say what she's just told us about the fact she has helped women administer themselves a pill which is an abortion pill, do you regard her as a child killer? i regard her as putting women at risk and we have found the irish family planning association has given similar bad advice to women

saying when they come back from the uk they should tell doctors they are miscarrying rather than having had abortions. it is a pill that is a problem across europe where it is legal and i think it's terribly important we let the listeners know what we are voting on on friday on the 25th of may because we are not voting on decriminalising abortion. we are voting on decriminalising it for women. we are voting to that on friday, if you like. we are not voting on legislation or decriminalising, we are voting on a simple question. will the people agree to take out of the constitution the pro—life article that went in in 1983 which acknowledges and recognises the equal right to the mother and... it gives equal rights to the unborn child as to the mother. it undertakes to defend and vindicate the right as is practical.

so there's a built—in understanding that the mothers rights and life will come first and sometimes in looking after her, baby will die. if you win on may 25, the argument from the pro—life people as there will be a massive surge in the numbers of abortions and some irish women who would not have had abortions because they would not made a decision go overseas and go through all the stress and anguish and hassle it entails that they will have abortions because they are easier to get home so the overall number abortions in ireland will go up. do you accept that? i don't. it's not consistent with what we see internationally. in portugal in 2007, they had a similar vote to the one being proposed in ireland and in the subsequent ten years since they allowed women access to abortion with their medical provider, should it be repealed on the 25th of may. what they have seen is there has been a deep increase from the 2007 rate of abortions to 2017 with making it safe and legal for women to access abortions and that women are safe in maternity

care and in accessing abortion. we are not arguing that there should be no abortion or some abortion. there is some abortion anyway regardless of how this vote goes, and that that abortion should be safe for women and it is not at the moment. one thing we have not mentioned is the role of the catholic church. we talk about the history, but the role in the campaign running up to may the 25th and it seems the church has taken a back seat and a background role and i wonder if that is because frankly the catholic church in ireland today is deeply tainted and its voice and credibility have been undermined by a series of scandals. many concerning sexuality, paedophile priests, and the treatment of young girls who became pregnant and was shunted off into institutions which treated them abysmally and often left their babies in unmarked graves. as all of that undermined the church's ability to be part of the campaign? i think the problems

you are describing aren't solely confined to ireland, we have the same thing with clergy and america and england and other places. i can't answer that the catholic church but in the churches around ireland preachers are speaking about the referendum and explain to people what the consequences of removal of the amendment would be. so you are happy to be associated, you're part of the campaign, in lockstep with the catholic church? you are saying that. i am asking whether you want to be associated with the catholic church. i don't know what kind of level of appreciation for the kind of campaign there is in britain and the listeners internationally, bert this is a campaign being led

on both sides by lay people and all churches are summing to say about it to their congregations but you won't find in debates like this and in current affairs programmes, you don't find the clergy of any hue getting involved. they look after their own flock in their own congregations. this has become more of a legal and medical and then personal campaign. it's those kinds of issues that are exercising people. it would be nice if we had an opportunity to explain to the listeners why i would regard many people would regard what is being proposed in ireland and is more liberal and that is in england and why people are so concerned with the proposals the government have. very briefly, sinead, the contention of caroline and her campaign is that of the irish government proceeds with legislation and it goes in favour of repealing the amendment and opening up legislation to legalise abortion, the argument from caroline‘s camp is that the plan appears to be to allow abortions on demand without any reference to a doctor.

that is not the case. that is more liberal than the uk. there would be a gp and a doctor involved and they want to take this into step with the rest of the eu, unlike the uk, where you have abortions on request up to 12 weeks with your primary health care provider or alternative doctor if needs be. thereafter it will be considerably more restrictive than the uk because there will be no grounds for access on disability grounds, no grounds for access on risk to health, which is the current grounds in the uk. so your contention is it will be a more conservative system than the uk? absolutely. the definition proposed in the legislation is that of risks to serious harm to health, which is a defined legal term in use in ireland already. it's a very higher threshold

of evidentiary need to pass and requires to doctors, one of whom must be an obstetrician to certify the risk. let's park that the now because there's something interesting written by an irish writer, patrick mccabe, who said, look, i think that there may be a way in which this irish referendum vote on the specific issue of abortion may tap into feeling is that we have seen for example in the american election of donald trump or in the british embrace of brexit in the referendum in the uk, it's about the nonmetropolitan people of ireland being really fed up with a metropolitan elite telling them how to think and how to behave and he says that might feed into actually a surprise victory for the pro—life campaign. this is very different from the campaigns you mention in that this is a grassroots bed campaign. it has been pushed up by the ground from the needs of women and girls and families to have abortion access and care provided in ireland

in our maternity system because it is dangerous not to have that. what i see on the grounds where i live... and you live in the country, farfrom dublin. i do. i live half an hour ‘s drive from the nearest big town to me. the nearest village to me has a population of 400 people. what we are seeing is huge swathes of the community around us very, very strongly in support of the campaign. we have people out leafleting and canvassing every night of the week in small, small towns and villages. the other way of interpreting the polling evidence in the run—up to polling day is that the abortion rights camp appears to have a small lead and not least a significant lead amongst young irish people and i wonder how you think you can close that gap?

i don't think it's necessarily the case. i think people are beginning to understand this cannot be restrictive legislation. if we remove the eighth amendment, any restriction in parliament will crumble with a constitutional challenge because the only rights holder will be the mother after that and there's no evidence whatsoever that the maternal care in ireland is substandard. we have better statistics and health outcomes than you have in the uk. do you think it will be very close, this vote? i don't know. i think it will probably be quite close and i hope we carry it in the end. sinead redmond and caroline simons, thanks for being here. thank you. thank you both very much. good morning. well, there's more dry and sunny weather to come this week. like we saw on sunday afternoon, there'll be areas of mist and sea fog around, especially the north sea. like we saw from a weather watcher in north yorkshire. there will be some rainclouds. a wet day today. more rain to come through the first part of monday. that's linked to the weather

front developing further through the night. little pulses of heavy rain to take us into dawn. keeping temperatures up here. another fresh start to monday morning, especially across eastern parts of england. there'll be mist and low cloud becoming more dominant from the north sea overnight. that will go back to the coast for the day. one or two mist and sea fog patchs here. dry and sunny weather elsewhere. the north—west of england, scotland, and northern ireland, further rain. fizzling out in the afternoon. more detail in the south. the afternoon, sporadic showers. some thunder. south—east england. drifting away on a gentle easterly wind. most places will be dry. sticking with the sunshine. temperatures in the low 20s. cooler with lingering sea fog. a pleasant day in southern scotland. eastern northern ireland are brightening up. fermanagh, derry, londonderry, damp here. for the 0rkneys and shetlands, a little bit on the cool side. that rain though will fizzle out through the night and into tuesday morning. a bit chilly to the north of that with clearer skies developing. further south, mist

and sea fog rolling in. not as cold as it has been for many. showers in southern areas are linked to this broad area of developing low pressure in western europe inching north on tuesday. high pressure in the north. that's what's killing it off. bit of patchy rain and drizzle in the northern parts of scotland. for 0rkney, shetland, hebrides, a brighter day on tuesday. brighter and dry as well for northern ireland. feeling a little bit warmer. warmth in the sunshine for england and wales. though one or two isolated showers developing. into wednesday, high pressure has more of a hold. a mistier start across eastern scotland and the north—east of england. a struggle to brighten up for some. most will have another dry day with lots of sunshine around and a few showers near the english channel later. i think most will stay dry on wednesday and pleasantly warm under that strong sunshine overhead. that's the story for the week. a few showers and thunderstorms very close to southern areas. for the rest of you, most places will be dry with a bit of sunshine and warmth. hello.

this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top stories: the public inquiry into the grenfell tower fire begins today. 71 people died in the disaster lastjune. nicolas maduro has been re—elected as president of venezuela, in elections boycotted by most of the opposition. it's one of the world's toughest races, held on one of the seven wonders of the world. we speak to the runners taking on the great wall course. trade war on hold. the united states and china call a truce and agree to drop their tariff threats while they continue to talk. also in business briefing, i'll be talking to a man who knows italian politics only too well, as two populist parties form a coalition government.