you are watching bbc world news. i'm babita sharma with bbc world news. our top story... the eruption of kilauea volcano on hawaii's big island enters a more violent phase. experts say lava is now flowing twice a fast as it was earlier in the eruption and fountains of molten rock are reaching 180 metres in the air. a summit to rescue a summit. donald trump is to meet the south korea president, moon jae—in, at the white house later today. their mission — to try to get the us president's meeting with the north korea's kimjong un back on track. and the royal wedding is still trending online. three official photographs have been released of saturday's royal wedding between prince harry and the former us actress, meghan markle who are now the duke and duchess of sussex. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur.

on may the 25th irish voters face a choice, by way of a referendum, they can keep a constitutional amendment which outlaws abortion in all but the most exceptional circumstances or they can change their constitution and pave the way for the legalisation of abortion. given ireland's history, culture and religion it is a fierce debate. i'm joined by two campaigners, sinead redmond, an advocate of expanding abortion rights, and caroline simons, an opponent. what does the argument and the likelier outcome say about ireland today. sinead redmond and caroline simons, welcome to hardtalk.

sinead, let me start with you. ireland is an outlier on this question of abortion, if one looks across the european union. ireland's laws are much more restrictive than the average across europe. why do you think that is? there is a cultural and historical context in which we have traditionally been a catholic country and we are an outlier in terms of abortion access but similar to malta which also has the same cultural and historical context. there is also the fact we are a post—colonial nations so traditionally they find their own identity in different ways from the coloniser and our difference was that we are a catholic country so there was a long history of self

identification with the catholic nation as part of what it meant to be irish. that identification and at that level of, ithink, probably controlled by the catholic church has been slipping away over the last 20 or 30 years and we've seen it in the referendums of the 1990s, such as the 1995 divorce referendum which allowed irish citizens to divorce the first time and we also saw it in 1992 which was the referendum around a 14—year—old girl who had been raped and made pregnant and whose parents wanted her to be taken to the uk for access to an abortion. the attorney general at the time, because of the existing constitutional amendment passed in 1983 considered it illegal and attempted to prevent from travelling. the supreme court hearing found because there was a risk to life of suicide because she was suicidal

from being made pregnant through rape, the supreme court found she had the right to an abortion and it was subsequently upheld. i will stop you there because there's a lot of detail about legal cases but the line of argument is clear and caroline i will turn to you. sinead is saying in essence that we to understand that ireland has been heavily influenced by the catholic church and religious dogma and which gradually over time over the last 30 years is changing. ireland is fundamentally changing their ball of these social changing therefore these social conventions and laws governing things like abortion must change as well. would you accept that? i wouldn't accept the last point that they must change too but i would agree with a lot of what sinead has said. the constitution as drafted in 1937 refers to the judeo christian heritage and the laws are founded under a god by the people.

that was the understanding. no doubt about it, there has been a slippage in a religious observance across all christian faith is in ireland. would you accept that this debate about abortion which comes to a head on may 25 with a referendum can be seen in the context of votes over the last 20 years on divorce, on gay marriage, on different social conventions where ireland is getting closer to the european liberal progressive mainstream 7 you might characterise it as progressive but i would disagree with the adjective. i don't think so. in more recent decades and particularly in the last decade it seems the human rights issue and whether you agree and there's a suggestion there is a human right to abortion, which we know there isn't, people are looking at it not from a religious perspective, as we have seen muslim and the presbyterian church come out against the referendum so it's not simply the catholic church,

but it goes beyond religion. people look upon it as a medical issue and human rights law issue and we have not seen much involvement from the church in fact in the campaign. let's explore the human rights issue as it stands. we know women in ireland who get pregnant and don't want to be pregnant and some have real serious medical concerns either with the unborn child or themselves, others as a choice do not at that moment want to be pregnant. we know that women in ireland can get abortions and it's not illegal, but they have to go outside the country and most go to the uk and some to other parts of europe. isn't there just a fundamental hypocrisy about that and also a denial of the rights of irish women to actually have something that is illegal abroad, have it accessible at home. isn't that a basic right? i don't think you can describe it that way. we have a different culture in ireland. when we talk about terminating

pregnancy, which is legal in ireland now, we mean terminating the pregnancy, not terminating the foetus and that's the difference between abortion and what the law currently allows. to be clear to the listeners. right now the only circumstances in which a termination, as you put it, is legal, is where the life of the mother is in immediate danger. it doesn't have to be in immediate danger, that's another misapprehension. we allow termination of pregnancy where there is a real substantial risk to the mother's life, including by her own threat of suicide and the wrist is not have to be or imminent but there is clear. is that right? i think most of the clinicians across the country disagree with the description. we have seen leading obstetricians, to say yes in the campaign for an abortion is where we needed.

the institutions of obstetricians and gynaecologists have approximately 80% of members in favour. a number of leading obstetricians, numbers of others, even across the country are coming and strongly saying we need the aid is to be repealed to protect women health and pregnancies. may i come in? you may, but i want to expand the thought further. we know that women go abroad to get terminations, abortions, and i believe the figures are roughly averaging at around ten per day are doing it in ireland, so roughly 4000 women a year women and girls, because some are under the age of consent, who are those abortions. we have case studies, just give you jennifer ryan she describes a nightmare situation where she had a scan at 22 weeks and her baby had no

chance at all of survival, really severe form of spina bifida. she took the choice that she had to terminate and went to liverpool and she had to bring back, because she wanted to bury the unborn child, she had to bring that child back in a coffin in the boot of her car. this was from liverpool in england. what kind of country puts a woman in that situation? can ijust come back first of all, because i think it's important people are clear about this, under the rules which govern the practice of medicine in ireland, it's very clear under article 483 of the code of practice for doctors that they do not have to wait until a woman is dying, that they may intervene or end a pregnancy whether the risk is to the mother's life and it

does not have to be immediate and that is the end of it. that is the law and that is what doctors are supposed to understand. to say that some obstetricians have come out, 80%, that is incorrect. that is a matter of difference between the two of you. that is a matter of fact. the five previous heads of the institute of obstetricians and gynaecologists have come out against the current head and 18 signed a letter two days ago to step aside while the referendum words going on because he has no mandate to campaign. you said it was a matter of human rights and i'm focused on the human right of this particular woman. it is a case study, one of many, and she is called jennifer ryan who discovered that her unborn child had severe form of spina bifida and no chance of survival and had to go to liverpool to have a termination and then had to bring the body back for burial in the boot of her car, and i'm asking you whether you think you want to live in ireland which forces women into that situation. would it be any different if she had to bring it back to durham? should she not have the right to do that amongst her family, her loved

ones, in her own home and community? we have a different ethos in the practice of medicine in ireland. we do not hasten or deliberately caused the death of any patient whether it is an elderly or infirm patient or a baby in the womb. that isn't an option in ireland. i know people come to england to have terminations done and to deliver a dead foetus and i know they fill out forms to say how they want the remains to be disposed of, that's the same if you are english or irish. the human rights council of the united nations has looked at this a couple of times and concluded that ireland has failed to strike the right balance between the protection of the features on the rights of women. they say the irish situation imposes a high level of mental anguish which amounts to cruel,

inhuman and degrading treatment on irish women in these situations. let's look at that. there are six committees at the un who have been highly critical of our abortion laws and have issued edicts dictating we should change them according to their diktats. the fact is, there are no committees who have power to either expand or interpret the conventions and the treaties which they monitor. they can simply monitor and report. their statements and conclusions are not binding on us and it was clear... it might give you pause for thought. it might indeed and when you look at the european court of human rights decisions that they have seen where countries who have a margin of appreciation to make their own laws in relation to abortion and other controversial issues, they accept the balance we have struck but have suggested also that where we have allowed abortion in our law we must make it clear and women must know when they can access it, so that is the legal position. i focus quite a few questions on you, caroline, so, sinead,

to flip around the human rights argument, there is an argument put forward by campaigners like caroline that we know so much more today than we've ever known before about how the foetus develops in the womb and to quote a doctor, sherborne crowley, who is on the pro—life side, she says, we now know a baby's heartbeat starts at 22 days and a 12—week—old unborn baby has a beating heart can swallow, yawn, kick, stretch and jump, move all the legs, fingers, toes, vital organs, responds to touch, fully formed face, this is a person and the latest scanning and ultrasound techniques tell us exactly what this foetus can do, even by 12 weeks, which of the law changes in ireland, will be the threshold before which any woman can get an abortion on demand. it's important to point out that

dr crowley has been strongly contradicted on that argument by many leading obstetricians and also an investigative special that ran in ireland calling the claims are accurate. more than that, it's important to highlight that not only is it not necessarily about how we feel about the development of an individual pregnancy but how each woman or person that becomes pregnant and family that deals with the pregnancy feels about each individual pregnancy. your feelings about an individual pregnancy will depend on your circumstances and your family situation and you have talked already about how women are travelling for abortions they are not allowed to access in ireland but it's also important to note that not only ten women today are travelling but also three to five women are self administering without medical care and i know because i've been involved in providing that pill to dozens of women? have you? you have fundamentally broken the law?

i have broken the law and i will continue to do that. so you're telling me that. i have testified to it numerous times. the irish authorities should under the letter of the law... under the letter of the law they should lock me up and the other three to five women and their partners and everyone else to support them everyday. so, caroline, not only does she think the law is fundamentally wrong she also thinks it is a mockery because the irish authorities are not following through on it. it has been described by the head of the biggest independent abortion provider in britain as a staggering problem in the uk as well. you are both mothers and highly respected members of your communities. can you look her in the eye and say what she's just told us about the fact she has helped women administer themselves a pill which is an abortion pill, do you regard her as a child killer? i regard her as putting women at risk and we have found the irish family planning association has given similar bad advice to women saying when they come back from the uk they should tell doctors

they are miscarrying rather than having had abortions. it is a pill that is a problem across europe where it is legal and i think it's terribly important we let the listeners know what we are voting on on friday on the 25th of may because we are not voting on decriminalising abortion. we are voting on decriminalising it for women. we not are voting to that on friday, if you like. we are not voting on legislation or decriminalising, we are voting on a simple question. will the people agree to take out of the constitution the pro—life article that went in in 1983 which acknowledges and recognises the equal right to the mother and... it gives equal rights to the unborn child as to the mother. it undertakes to defend and vindicate the right as is practical. so there's a built—in understanding that the mothers rights and life that the mother's rights and life

will come first and sometimes in looking after her, baby will die. if you win on may 25th, the argument from the pro—life people is there will be a massive surge in the numbers of abortions and some irish women who would not have had abortions because they would not have made a decision go overseas and go through all the stress and anguish and hassle it entails that they will have abortions because they are easier to get home so the overall number abortions in ireland will go up. do you accept that? i don't. it's not consistent with what we see internationally. in portugal in 2007 they had a similar vote to the one being proposed in ireland and in the subsequent ten years since they allowed women access to abortion with their medical provider should it be repealed on the 25th of may.

what they have seen is there has been a deep crease from the 2007 rate of abortions to 2017 with making it safe and legal for women to access abortions and that women are safe in maternity care and in accessing abortion. we are not arguing that there should be no abortion or some abortion. there is some abortion anyway regardless of how this bogo is, and that that abortion should be safe for women and it is not at the moment —— regardless of how this vote goes. one thing we have not mentioned is the role of the catholic church. we talk about the history, but the role in the campaign running up to may the 25th and it seems the church has taken a back seat and a background role and i wonder if that is because frankly the catholic church in ireland today is deeply tainted and its boys is deeply tainted and its voice and credibility have been undermined by a series of scandals. many concerning sexuality, paedophile priests,

and the treatment of young girls who became pregnant and was shunted off into institutions which treated them abysmally and often left their babies in unmarked graves. has all of that undermined the church's ability to be part of the campaign? i think the problems you are describing aren't solely confined to ireland, we have the same thing with clergy and america and england and other places. i can't answer that the catholic church but in the churches around ireland priests are speaking about the referendum and explain to people what the consequences of removal of the amendment would be. so you are happy to be associated, you're part of the campaign, in lockstep with the catholic church? you are saying that. i am asking whether you want to be associated with the catholic church. i don't know what kind of level of appreciation for the kind of campaign there is in britain and the listeners internationally, but this is a campaign being led

on both sides by lay people and all churches are summing to say about it to their congregations but you won't find in debates like this and in current affairs programmes, you don't find the clergy of any hue getting involved. they look after their own flock in their own congregations. this has become more of a legal and medical and then personal campaign. it's those kinds of issues that are exercising people. it would be nice if we had an opportunity to explain to the listeners why i would regard many people would regard what is being proposed in ireland and is more liberal and that is in england and why people are so concerned with the proposals the government have. very briefly, sinead, the contention of caroline and her campaign is that of the irish government proceeds with legislation and it goes in favour of repealing the amendment and opening up legislation to legalise abortion, the argument from caroline‘s camp

is that the plan appears to be to allow abortions on demand without any reference to a doctor. that is not the case. that is more liberal than the uk. there would be a gp and a doctor involved and they want to take this into step with the rest of the eu, unlike the uk, where you have abortions on request up to 12 weeks with your primary health care provider or alternative doctor if needs be. thereafter it will be considerably more restrictive than the uk because there will be no grounds for access on disability grounds, no grounds for access on risk to health, which is the current grounds in the uk. so your contention is it will be a more conservative system than the uk? absolutely. the definition proposed in the legislation is that of a risk to serious harm to health which is defined legal term

in use in ireland already. it's a very high threshold of evidentiary need to pass and requires to doctors, one of whom must be an obstetrician to certify the risk. let's park that for now because there's something interesting written by an irish writer, patrick mccabe, who said, look, i think that there may be a way in which this irish referendum vote on the specific issue of abortion may tap into feeling that we have seen for example in the american election of donald trump or in the british embrace of brexit in the referendum in the uk, it's about the nonmetropolitan people of ireland being really fed up with a metropolitan elite telling them how to think and how to behave and he says that might feed into actually a surprise victory for the pro—life campaign. this is very different from the campaigns you mention in that this is a grassroots bed campaign.

it has been pushed up by the ground from the needs of women and girls and families to have abortion access and care provided in ireland in our maternity system because it is dangerous not to have that. what i see on the grounds where i live... and you live in the country, farfrom dublin. i do. i live half an hour's drive from the nearest big town to me. the nearest village to me has a population of 400 people. what we are seeing is huge swathes of the community around us very, very strongly in support of the campaign. we have people out leafleting and canvassing every night of the week in small, small towns and villages. the other way of interpreting the polling evidence in the run—up to polling day is that the abortion rights camp appears to have a small lead and not least a significant lead amongst young irish people and i wonder how you think you can close that gap? i don't think it's necessarily the case. i think people are beginning to understand this cannot be

restrictive legislation. if we remove the eighth amendment, any restriction in parliament will crumble with a constitutional challenge because the only rights holder will be the mother after that and there's no evidence whatsoever that the maternal care in ireland is substandard. we have better statistics and health outcomes than you have in the uk. do you think it will be very close, this vote? i don't know. i think it will probably be quite close and i hope we carry it in the end. sinead redmond and caroline simons, thanks for being here. thank you. thank you both very much. the weather is not looking bad over

the next few days. we cannot guarantee completely dry weather but we need a bit of rain at least from time to time and on tuesday there is a risk of downpours with thunder across the south of the uk in particular. as far as the short-term is concerned, the next few hours very quiet across the uk. a bit of cloud across the north—west where we have a weather front across northern ireland and scotland. it is a very wea k ireland and scotland. it is a very weak weather front so it is mostly cloud and not a lot of rain. the early hours of tuesday morning, a few spots of rain across scotland, to the south of the country we have clear skies and not cold at all. 12

in london but fresher in the north—west of scotland. let's look at the weather first thing in the morning. it is looking great but there is a chance of showers across kent and sussex. but the vast majority of the country is looking dry. not necessarily sunny everywhere, a bit more cloud in the north—east, some across scotland and partly sunny skies in northern ireland as well. we have a bit of cloud and to the south, sunshine. later in the morning the cloud will develop so there is the risk of a few downpours, particularly across southern areas, possibly in the midlands as well. warm for many across the south of the country, into the 20s and a little bit colder for the north. the chelsea flower show is looking fine, temperatures could hit the mid—20s but there is the chance of rain by the time we get to thursday. let's look at the forecast for the middle part of the week. it will be a good week with

high—pressure extending all the way from scandinavia into the uk. there will be a bit of cloud early in the morning across some of these north—eastern areas, possibly along the north sea coast down into east anglia. but it will be a warm one for many. where you see the orange, those are temperatures well into the 20s, so 23, 24 in london and in the north of the country, mid—or high teens and possibly 20 degrees in edinburgh. 0n teens and possibly 20 degrees in edinburgh. on thursday into friday, temperatures will probably level off across the country further south. down to about 22 in london with the risk of a couple of showers. let's look at saturday because things are set to warm up across europe and temperatures could really be hitting the mid—, possibly high 20s across the mid—, possibly high 20s across the south on the bank holiday weekend. i'm rico hizon in singapore — the headlines: scientists warn that hawaii's volcano eruption has reached

a dangerous stage as the lava flow doubles in speed. south korea's president will meet donald trump — can they put the summit with kim jong un back on track? i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: more than a dozen countries are recalling their ambassadors to venezuela after nicolas maduro's controversial election win. it may have been televised live, but many people still want to see the official photographs of the prince and his bride — we have them for you.