the latest headlines: american diplomats and north korean officials are continuing preparations for a summit between president trump and the north korean leader kim jong—un, less than a week after mr trump cancelled it. a close aide of the north korean leader will meet the us secretary of state in new york this week. one of russia's best—known investigative journalists has been shot dead at his home in the ukrainian capital, kiev. arkady babchenko was an outspoken critic of president putin and left russia last year, saying he feared for his life. kiev‘s police chief said evidence pointed to a targeted murder. it's emerged that the man who killed two women police officers and a civilian in belgium was on day release from prison. benjamin herman reportedly converted to islam while injail and was on a security list. now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. to to talk with tony, zeinab badawi.

i guess believes that the west sees islam as something to be feared, rather than understood. —— hello and welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. he turned his back on jihadism and has written about his own personal journey, as jihadism and has written about his own personaljourney, as well as trying to explain why people join extremist groups. and now he is calling on moderate muslims to reclaim their religion from the extremist is, but easy oversimplifying complex issue and playing into the hands of islamaphobes? ed husain, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you for having me. why do you feel you have a mission to explain is on toa feel you have a mission to explain is on to a wider audience and tackle extremism? adopts two reasons. one is that there is a commanding the koran that says speak the truth, evenif koran that says speak the truth, even if it is against your own self. as was muzzle all my life, i feel it is obligatory on me to do so and also because i believe howzat islam globally is currently on fire, and it is just right for us as muslims who understand this space, to try to put the water out from both within the house, but encourage the global neighbourhood to help us put the fire out. that will not happen u nless we fire out. that will not happen unless we explain the inner dynamics that are at play within islam. all right, you said personal dynamics as well. that's just pick up on that

then. you became radicalised at about 16 to 21, how much is that a motivator for you? that is a huge motivator. what i was at school, i grew up in a mainstream indian muslim household, as mainstream as it comes. but at school, secondary school in the united kingdom, i was given a book written by a man from the subcontinent, the founder of a jihadist group. that ideology is that islam ideology that must dominate the world, that put me on a trajectory that maybe end up in the circle of hamas and hizb ut—tahrir. yes, it is called isis now, but the same dynamic of young muslims being exposed to an agenda that wants to impose islam on the west and impose its own extremist victory. did you

contemplate any violent acts yourself? personally i did not walk the violent pathway but i remember raising funds for extremist, for terrorist. today i look back and i wonder why was i in the east london mosque raising funds for hamas? because we saw that as the right thing to do. amat is not quite equated with the so—called islamic state, is it? accepted is not the islamic state but it is an extremist group with a terrorist agenda does wa nt to group with a terrorist agenda does want to bring an end to israel's existence and we are supporting its martyrs, who are in fact murderers. that was an area that was blurred for many of us and it should not be. my for many of us and it should not be. my concern today is that many, many young muslims are exposed to those extremist visions of islam that are taking them away from leading a peaceful, normal, coexistence based life. we will not talk about hamas, but of course there are many younger people who supported as a legitimate

voice for reclaiming the struggle for palestinian territory. you have changed your mind and decided that extremism is not for you. but the reason people turn to extremism, it isa reason people turn to extremism, it is a very complex matter. the director of the centre for islamic radicalisation of the university couege radicalisation of the university college london says that it is caused by a range of factors, which are interconnected. he is right that is very complex, why people turn to extremism, and the debate can be polarised. the debate can be polarised. the debate can be polarised and yes, he is right, but i put to you that every factor that academics and others who wish to add an excessive layer of nuance on the why people become extremists and ultimately confront their parents and the society and blow themselves up and the society and blow themselves up in the scenario, every factor, whether it is unemployment, displacements, you thanks or the lack of a feeling of dignity, all of

those factors apply to members of other community. is that so really? beat the germans were demolished in two world wars, albeit the hindu indians who come here, or the poor mauritanians bangladeshis who are excessively poor, if you want to talk about poverty. why is it that they are not becoming a suicide bombers? why is it happening in tunisia, egypt or in casar or kuwait, or indeed here in the west? but i was bringing in different points you, which is how do you account for the fact that he might have a white muslim convert who joins the so—called islamic state, a muslim born a muslim, who comes from an affluent background, everything to live for, university, it has got a great future ahead of them, join so—called is? you have those who are marginalised, the misfits? people joined for different reasons, that is the point. they may not

necessarily feel that they are marginalised. i completely agree that there is not one route into it but my point is that people arrive at islamic state from various routes, and beat a sense of politics, wanting to belong, group dynamics, or wanting to confront modernity, a whole range of factors but ultimately... no, but ultimately, they want to impose their reading out on the society, and that is the problem, that there is an ideology at play and just as communism had multiple routes, trotsky was different to stalin, was different to lenin, ultimately they wanted... they all end up with the same causes your point, whatever their reasons forjoining that cause in the first place. and it is incumbent on us to understand that and demolished the arguments for that cause. one reason you say the course of extremism in your new book, the house of islam, is this desire to establish a caliphate. that happened when we saw is

establish its territory in syria and iraq, but look now, may 2018, that they do not hold any territory. 98% of the territory they had has been reclaimed by the syrians and the iraqis, so your argument is not necessarily hold water. on the contrary, they are today stronger because they territory has been demolished. when they had their territory, they were defending a narrow land mass, now they have over 35,000 fighters that have been widespread throughout the world and they will and they can strike us anywhere and everywhere. secondly, they now have grievance. previously they now have grievance. previously they had territory and they had to govern, for all their flaws. they had territory and they had to govern, for all theirflaws. now they have a grievance, which is the west and its allies destroyed a caliphate and it is incumbent upon us caliphate and it is incumbent upon us to hit back and we create another caliphate. so you think that they will try to get a resurrection of a geographical, physicalspace will try to get a resurrection of a geographical, physical space that they will call a caliphate?

absolutely, they have done that on three occasions in the last 60 yea rs. three occasions in the last 60 years. one of the creation of saudi arabia, second was the creation of the taliban in the emirates...” don't think you can say that saudi arabia was established by a terrorist group, but anyway. terrorist group, but anyway. terrorist group, but anyway. terrorist group controlled them, the founder of saudi arabia controlled them. he was in alliance with the wahhabi. they were reined in by the founder of saudi arabia, that is just historical fact. founder of saudi arabia, that is just historicalfact. ok, it has lost its headquarters in raqqa in syria. you believe that they will go and we formulate a caliphate somewhere physically, geographically, again? is not, that abu bakr al—baghdadi led entity, whether it is boko haram or the

taliban, the impetus, the desire, the craving, the madness to create a so—called islamic state is alive and well in large numbers of islamist and violentjihadist cousins across the middle east, across the muslim world. unless we confront that idea, the belief that it is a religious obligation, by the way it is not an muslim scholars have repeatedly said it is not. unless we move that idea from under theirfeet, it is not. unless we move that idea from under their feet, they it is not. unless we move that idea from under theirfeet, they will continue to attack and yes, there will be another caliphate declared in due course. right, so you make it quite clear and most would agree with you that you need to uproot this objective that the extremists ha rd this objective that the extremists hard and try to get rid of the cause. is it only to a confrontational path you can do that because there are those who say look, we should talk? i give you an example, jonathan powell, who was tony blair's, the former prime minister's chief of staff, who says yes, bombing isis is one thing but

it is not enough, you have to talk to them. we have seen president ashraf ghani of afghanistan now saying he is to have no preconditions set for talking with taliban, and that would have been inconceivable to many people a few yea rs inconceivable to many people a few years ago. is there that more conciliatory path? agree you need both of those running concurrently. jonathan does bring work but that would not appeal to the extremists and the terrorists had they not been the more military solution at play at the same time, so yes, they ought to bea at the same time, so yes, they ought to be a military response but my point is a military response is not enough and it never has been enough, you do need the heart and minds battle at play and you do need the aetiological response. but talks, even talks, would you advocate... well, i can't imagine us talking with isis, i mean which of the demands are we going to seed to? not with the leadership necessarily, but with the leadership necessarily, but with footsoldiers, those who can be reclaimed. i mean when you look at the approach that some european

soldiers had the returnees, the danish and so on, they are saying look, let's try it, at if we can reintegrate these people into the mainstream. yes, in principle, i am fully behind that. i am behind that the two reasons, one because i have seen the two reasons, one because i have seen tens of my friends live extremist groups and they are now the strongest advocates against extremism. i've seen that play out and we should let that happen but at the same time, i hearfrom and we should let that happen but at the same time, i hear from friends in government and egypt, in turkey, and in other places, we extremists have been bought back in, put into prison for a period of time but not necessarily punish per se but exposed to pluralist muslim conversations that then leads to them changing their minds. —— punished. that is what it is, it is essentially a battle for the interpreter sold islam and you get that right, you move away from the extremist battle of islam. i'm all for bringing people in and having a dialogue with them to change their

minds. you can't imply that mainstream muslims, moderate muslims, do not do enough to reclaim the language of islam from the extremist ‘s? but i put it to you that they do it constantly, the muslim council of 0uston, whenever there is any kind of terrorist attack, speak out and say not in a name. the organisation of islamic conference, the pan islamic organisation says not in a name, they do constantly. yeah, i honestly wish i could agree with you and say you are absolutely right, but i know from my own involvement with those organisations, and what i would say, for example the muslim council of britain, the years it refused to attend holocaust memorial day. after the seventh ofjuly 2005 attacks in london on the metro, they said yes, we condemn, at it is british presence in iraq and afghanistan that led to that. see, with terrorism, there is no use and there are no but, you have to condemn

outright. that is the main problem with these so—called mainstream organisations to me. by the way, i do not think they are necessarily mainstream, i think they are more activist. the real issue is this, that they will not condemn, nor criticise, nor reject the so—called obligation or idea on the ordinary muslim to create an islamic state and from the muslim brotherhood on one extreme and the isis on the other extreme, that is really... new york city has just launched an action plan to provide mechanisms on countering terrorism, but let me put this to you... but do they mention the rejection of an islamic state? not the entity of the islamic state, but an islamic state being a duty of most muslim is? they condemned the tactic, you see, that is the problem. i'm not saying he does, but there is an overall sort of silent towards the objective which is to

create an islamic state to confront the world. they have been blown out of iraq by the iraqi military, the armed forces and so on, but let me put this to you. you know that most figures for extremist islam, it is a tiny proportion, zero —— a tiny, tiny proportion, zero —— a tiny, tiny minority. and yet, this is what this american student said last year. she can hold a huge list of muslims condemning terror attacks and she says i want to show people how weak the argument is that muslims do not care about terrorism, are held to a different standard from other minorities. i do not view the kkk, the ku klux klan, or the norse resistance army —— lord's resista nce norse resistance army —— lord's resistance army, as an accurate replication of christianity. i know they the fringe. she is talking about the manifestation, the expression of a much deeper problem. that problem is

to create an islamic state, a shia based one. mccalla caliphate did not emerge by accident. they refused to condemn the ideology that derived it. unless you object it, you will have various manifestations and tactical occur answers, which... have various manifestations and tactical occur answers, which. .. by the way, when were muslims held to such a low bar that they condemn murder and terrorism?” such a low bar that they condemn murder and terrorism? i am making the point about how you get rid of these objectives. she is saying this tiny minority are hijacking a religion and everyone is being painted with the same brush. disorganised majority being taken over by an organised minority. that is what they are. they play mood

music to which others dance, and thatis music to which others dance, and that is the issue. are you putting too much emphasis on that? it is largely a problem with the media. there was a study by a lexus nexus academic that looked at television coverage between 2006 and 2016. 357% more coverage than other attacks, muslim attacks. i accept the disproportionate number. take the recent incident with the man called muhamed in paris who came to save a young boy hanging off a balcony, a fourth floor balcony. by all accou nts fourth floor balcony. by all accounts he was a muslim man and talked about god but none of his godliness or a faith played any part in the french media coverage. had he done something wrong, god forbid...

you would agree there is a need to normalise the perception of muslims rather than just normalise muslims, which is what you are saying, you know, normalise muslim conversation and say extremism is not us. it is not a problem with muslims. not with the vast majority. i would not say that for a moment. my new book talks about the fact the vast majority of the world's muslims are peaceful and are the birth givers to a new type of culture. but the house of islamic is on fire and we have to identify the arsonists, like muslim brotherhood and a whole range of organisations. they say they are a sovereign state and do not... ask the saudi allies... one of your

solutions to trying to douse the fla mes solutions to trying to douse the fla m es of solutions to trying to douse the flames of the house of islam which you say is on fire is to set up a middle east union, a bit like the european union, the meu. how realistic is that? getting iran, turkey, the middle eastern countries in one union? in the 1930s, and there were those in the 1930s here in europe who called for a european union, and people mocked them and said really? the germans and the french around these and table with the austrian is and the poles and brits? are you out of your mind? and look where we are. almost every single arab and muslim leader in the middle east talks about making unity over and... talk is one thing. but you cannot get even unity among smaller groups, with qatar and saudi

arabia... what is the greatest fault line between turkey and qatar... the sunni and shia divide.” line between turkey and qatar... the sunni and shia divide. i would say it is the is less ideology causing that divide the big —— islamist. the way you sold that is... you talked about the emirates. the founder of the emirates wanted to bring them together. it is called the united arab emirates for a reason. you think it can be done and you can ove rco m e think it can be done and you can overcome these differences? think it can be done and you can overcome these differences7m think it can be done and you can overcome these differences? if we and the allies in the middle east do not walk towards this you will identify islamic state being both iraqi and syrian, but look at the muslim brotherhood... the territory they have... they want to demolish borders. they are talking about another reject unified the region. if we do not get behind it, others

will lead us to that direction and we will wonder how did we miss that? the middle east union would have to reclaim and get rid of the extremists? you think that could happen? they should be a common defence policy with a common military response. the egyptians and saudis have been talking about it. we do not have the architecture and understanding in the west to talk about it. you recently said this about it. you recently said this about islamophobia. it is a terrible oxymoron which allows muslims to wallow in unwarranted victimhood. is that so we look at things like one figure, islamophobic hate crimes soared in london by 40% in the past year? i defend what i said. i do not think all new brits, and i say that in the context of a 500 year relationship between the british and

many was on governments, my point is there seems to be a mass feeling out there seems to be a mass feeling out there that the west is against islam and the religion so big —— muslim governments. projects have been launched against islamophobia in the west. there is anti—muslim sentiment, and yes, there is a rise of feelings against muslims because of feelings against muslims because of what we identify biglia, muslims being seen as terrorists, and islamic state talked about getting rid of the grey zone. population turning against muslims. the answer is to get rid of terrorism. it has gone beyond that. that tiny number... i have the secretary in the uk who is muslim. nadia hussein... ordinary people... they

have been supported and voted for. the mayor of london. they were voted for by whites. in the us we have seen terrible and random attacks by muslims because... the president was barack 0bama, in his middle name was a muslim name. you have people shot, attacks, clothes set on fire... anti—muslim sentiment. attacks, clothes set on fire... anti-muslim sentiment. business owners with signs saying muslim free zones. owners with signs saying muslim free zones. you cannot say islamophobia is an oxymoron. anti-muslim sentiment exists. yes. too many activists in was the committees have used islamophobia to shut down

debate. any criticism of them and their activities is being as homophobic. —— is seen as islamophobic. that is a problem, using back to shut down debate so be asa using back to shut down debate so be as a muslim, i believe how can you have a phobia against something like that? there is a perception in the west the only good muslim is liberal, someone who does not wear a headscarf, who is pro—gay marriage. 0rdinary people do not have a problem with ordinary muslims. they just do not. hijab—wearers are free and abound in europe. it is the

terrorists that bring on that phobia against ordinary muslims and we have to put out the fire in the house of islam and get rid of the terrorists in our midst. ed husain, thank you for coming on hardtalk. thank you for coming on hardtalk. thank you for having me. thank you for coming in on. —— coming on. hello. good morning. the distribution of downpours will vary from one day to the next, but the general weather pattern remains the same. tuesday was a day of extremes. heavy rain in a short period of time closed the m2. it was especially difficult in kent. north and north—west, looks at that,

27 in scotland yet again. dry to the north—west and wet in the south. closer to low pressure and spiralling cloud. you can see the cloud has been growing. that rain will go north. it will go to northern england and the midlands, across towards wales, allowing the south—east to become more dry later with late sunshine. it will be misty for a while with heavy and thundery rain. more cloud for eastern scotland. another lovely day in northern ireland. well, this rain will continue drifting north. showers will perhaps head towards scotland and northern ireland. drying off in england and wales. still rather misty. not much wind to move things around. humid air. 12-14. more cloud for scotland and northern ireland. temperatures will not be as high on thursday. perhaps the odd shower.

storms will go to the south—east towards wales, the midlands, and east anglia. more very heavy rain, thunder and lightning, and some localised flooding. pressure is dropping across the uk which is keeping storms going. the tendency in the next few days is to push everything that much further north. southern parts of england and wales, not as wet, generally dry, sunshine, warm and muggy air. the midlands, scotland and northern ireland, slow—moving and heavy and thundery downpours. this is the first time wet weather arrives in scotland and northern ireland for a while. heavy showers and possible thunderstorms here on saturday. for most of england and wales, may well be dry. a few showers dotted around, though difficult to tell where. warm sunshine with temperatures in the mid—20s.

sunday and monday, the threat of catching some thunderstorms remains. the weather pattern is not changing significantly. large parts of the uk will be dry with some sunshine. welcome to bbc news — broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. i'm duncan golestani. our top stories: high level talks continue, as officials meet to try and revive a summit between donald trump and kimjong—un. gauging what life is like inside north korea, the bbc hears direct testimony from a network of dissidents. sirens two police officers and a civilian are shot dead in belgium. prosecutors are treating it as a terrorist attack. and the american comedy actress roseanne barr has her hit television