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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  June 5, 2018 12:30am-1:00am BST

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our top story: at least 62 people are now known to have been killed in guatemala's deadliest volcanic eruption in more than a century. many more are missing, with up to two million people are affected. soldiers are helping firefighters search for those missing after villages were engulfed by torrents of superheated rock, ash, and mud from the fuego volcano, which means "fire" in spanish. the white house has confirmed details of the first meeting between donald trump and north korea's kimjong—un in singapore on the 12th ofjune. it'll take place at 9am in the morning local time. and this video is trending on bbc.com. it's the backflipping off—duty fbi agent, whose antics on a denver dancefloor put a man in hospital. the agent's gun dropped out of his waistband. as he went to recover it, the weapon discharged, hitting another customer in the leg. that's all from me now. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk.
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welcome to hardtalk, with me, zeinab badawi. the national assembly in pakistan has been dissolved ahead of the general election in latejuly. well, just as eyes were turned on him when he was a top international cricket star, much attention has focused on imran khan, abandoning sport for the far less gentlemanly arena of pakistani politics. he established his own party, the pakistan tehreek—e—insaf, or pakistan movement forjustice party, more than 20 years ago. he says he wants to create a new pakistan. in the last elections in 2013, his party came third. so, can he make it to the position of prime minister this time around, and is he the right person to steer pakistan given criticisms about his performance? imran khan, in islamabad,
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welcome to hardtalk. what makes you believe you have the expertise and experience to run a country as complex, populous, and diverse as pakistan? zein, the issue with pakistan is the same issue with most of the developing world. it's a question of governance. so, if pakistan is a governance—failure, the reason why we haven't achieved our potential is because we have weak state institutions, and because we have weak state institutions, we cannot collect enough revenue to develop our human beings. so, in a nutshell, those are the two issues, to develop our state institutions, and then to raise money to spend on our human beings, on our education, on our health and clean drinking water, etc. so... so why are you the right person
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to bring about the changes i think everyone would agree pakistan needs? well, mainly because the two other parties which have been taking powers in the past 30 years, who have been taking turns in getting to power, they failed. and during their time, the state institutions have degenerated. there was a case in the supreme court with the former prime minister, and the court, the chiefjustice in the supreme court said that all state institutions have collapsed in pakistan. this is what has happened in the time these two parties have
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been in power. you are talking about the ppp, the pakistan people's party, the party led by bilawal bhutto, the bhutto family, and also the ruling family, the pakistan muslim league n, and you are referring to nawaz sharif, the former prime minister. they may have been discredited in your eyes, but nevertheless, in orderfor you to do better than these two parties in the election, a march gallup poll puts your party, the pti, at 24%, and the ruling plmn at 36%. so you have a huge mountain to climb to do better. uh, zein, these surveys are quite misleading. i mean, if you look at the election which david cameron contested in england, they were supposed to be level with the labour party and there was a landslide victory. so, this is what might have been, the survey, at the time. but when the election time comes and when parties come up with their manifestoes, and when the electorate has to make up its mind, that's really
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when the swing takes place. and we believe that this is the time that my party, i feel that this is the time pti will win in a landslide. but really, i mean, i have to put it to you, you say you can dismiss polls, but for example, take the state of punjab, the biggest in pakistan, you cannot win a national election if you do not carry the 100 million people of punjab, half the population of pakistan. it is run by the ruling plmn, and in february, your party lost badly in a by—election against them. only in february. it does not bode well foryou, imran khan. zein, in by—elections in pakistan, if you look at our history, always the party in power wins the by—elections. when plmn was in the opposition between 2002 and 2007,
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they lost all the by—elections to pmlq but lost the general election. same with the people's party, when they were in between 2008 and 2013, they won all the by—elections. it is not a good indicator. it is the rising popularity of a party as you get close to the elections, which party is on the ascendance. and if you look at the polls, go back a year ago, pti was much further down and it is now going up. and if you took a poll now it is probably level with be plmn. all right, you have positioned yourself as an outsider launching a war against what you call a corrupt and unjust system, wanting to create a new pakistan.
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what is new and different about your policies? they sound similar to the things other parties are saying, "food, shelter, and clothing" is the slogan for the ppp. you say something similar. so what is different about you? well, the policies of the two main parties have enriched the rich and impoverished the poor. so the gap between the rich and the poor in the last 30 years has increased. at the moment, we have a tiny island of rich people and we have a sea of poor people. the difference is getting bigger because of the policies. so, how are we going to be different? again, i will repeat, we are the only party that can build state institutions. for instance, the police are the most difficult to build. the province we have been in power in for five years, kp, we have the best police. the reason is that we have isolated it from political pressure and brought in merit, and as a result, the police, the professionalism of the police, it has gone up, and the police most hit by the taliban, in 2013,
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almost 1000 police were killed by the taliban. it was devastated. today it is the best police force. crime has come down and terrorism has come down. i am just saying, parties that destroy institutions, history tells us they can never build the same instutitions again, but we can. you bring up your influence in your province, kp, which your party, the pti, has held in the last five years. let me tell you what an opposition member in the national assembly said about this. he said you had a chance to implement your agenda during the rule in kp but you missed a big chance. you talked about creating 10 million jobs in the province, but you were not even been able to create 5,000 during your tenure. is that a fair point?
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0ne indication. kp is one province out of all of the four provinces in pakistan. they never really re—elect a party. they only give you one chance, mla got one chance in 2002 and were wiped out in 2008. we are talking about your agenda. you had a chance to demonstrate that you could deliver and you have not. that is the point. this is what i am coming to. now, they had a chance in 2008 and get wiped out in 2013. today, pti, all surveys in kp, i mean, i am saying don't listen to him, he has to say those things, but the indication is, if you look at all the... how manyjobs have been created?
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how manyjobs did you create? and have you built a new university in kp? a new hospital in kp? first of all, if you look at all surveys today, pti has doubled its vote bank. so, clearly, what the pti manifesto, it must have fulfilled its promises in the manifesto, otherwise people would not vote again for pti. that is number one, rather than what the opposition is saying. all the main fields, human development, education, kp is ahead of all provinces, in health, a recent survey, kp is ahead of other provinces. it has the best local governments system. law and order, police, it is number one. the environment. it has... the first time in the history of pakistan that a province has done so much for the environment, planting one billion trees in five years! but have you built a new university, a new hospital, in kp? have you delivered the jobs you said you would deliver? poverty in kp has been halved. remember now, first of all, zein, you must understand, kp was the province most hard—hit by the war on terror. sure. it was devastated. 70% of industry was closed! i willjust give indications so people know what we were up against. in 2013, in all three provinces,
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the bigger provinces, the total number of major terrorist attacks were 99 all put together. injust kp, and fatah, adjoining fatah, there were 200 terrorist attacks! kp was devastated! 70% of industry was closed! so people were sheltering in islamabad. so, so... sorry to interrupt. you are talking about the security, i am talking about your social policy record. you have talked about poverty and inequality. i have to put it to you, imran khan, that you yourself may say things on the campaign trail like this, "a civilised society is not known by how many big houses are constructed, but how people in the slums live." yet you live in a beautiful villa in the hills overlooking islamabad worth several million us dollars. and that kind ofjars with your message, doesn't it? look, zeinab, whatever house i live in, if it is my legitimate earnings,
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my tax—paying earnings, if i live the way i like, that's my business. it doesn't mean that i cannot have compassion for the people. i mean, remember, i am the biggest, i do the greatest amount of charity work in pakistan's history. i built one cancer hospital, the biggest charitable institution, i built a second one. remember, 75% of the patients are treated... free cancer patients... a second in peshawar... those who come to the hospital are treated... do you not find it embarrassing, living in this villa preaching about those living in slums? what about... this house was built by me selling my london flat which i earned in my cricket days. i sold that. it is no more expensive than the flat i had in kensington. i sold it.
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this was proven in the supreme court. i do not know if you know i was in the supreme court justifying where i got the money for this house because the prime minister was being investigated. all right, let's move on from your personal accommodation and the messages it sends too. you were talking about security... zeinab, hold on a minute. look, i mean... i can repeat. the amount i bought this place for was that one london flat which i sold... you made that clear, imran khan. 0k. talking about security and the armed forces, one criticism you often hear about you, one person for example, maryam nawaz, the daughter of the former prime minister, nawaz sharif, says you are a stooge and pawn of the pakistani army. are you? that is rich coming from her.
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her father was literally manufactured by the general‘s military dictatorship. but what do you say about the criticism ? he was removed from power in 1999 and you welcomed his ouster, having waged a long campaign against him, and even said you would welcome an offer tojoin the government. this is not true, i could have joined general musharraf's government in 2001. i was the only party who had the offer from musharraf who did not help him. i was the only political leader put in jail by the general musharraf. ok, so you are putting the record straight on that. but again, perhaps you could be a bit more critical of the armed forces, that is another thing that is said about you, and speak more about it excesses.
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there is concern from human rights organisations like amnesty international. in 2017—18, it says reports continue that security forces were involved in human rights violations, including torture and other ill treatment, arbitrary detention, extrajudicial executions, and other ill treatment. shouldn't you be highlighting these kinds of very serious concerns, rather than just saying we built up the security forces in kp, and so on and so forth? sure, but let me clear this up. maryam nawaz says i am backed by the military. herfather, nawaz sharif, was chosen by the prime minister. i have struggled for 22 years, and if you — if anyone tells you about on 29 april, we had the biggest rally in pakistan's history. 500,000 people turned up.
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when you have people with you, you don't need any crutches. someone like nawaz sharif, he was picked up by the army. secondly, talking about the army, look, the army depends on the army chief. so general musharraf's army is different. so i criticised general musharraf's army because i was against pakistan sending its troops into the tribal areas. all right, but you get on with general bajwa, the current chief of the armed forces. you have made it clear where you stand. but i need to tell you why general bajwa. that's fine, you've made it clear. i have not brought any criticisms about general bajwa. i just wanted to speak about some
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of the rotten apples in the armed forces, and the actions that they carry out, according to human rights organisations. another thing that is said about you... can i clear this thing? very quickly. look, i oppose the army being sent to the tribal areas. why? because, whenever you send the army into civilian areas, there will always be human rights violations. how can there not be? the army is not fighting another army. there are villagers there, human beings living there. so i oppose the war. what general bajwa — the reason i think he's the first army chief, he has categorically stated that he stands
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with pakistan's democracy. he stands with pakistan's constitution. and he is trying to clear up the mess created by general musharraf when he sent the army into tribal areas. all right, thank you for clarifying that. i want to put you another thing said about you. the co—leader of the opposition ppp party, bilawal bhutto zardari, says you are the estranged brother of the taliban. do you admire the taliban in any shape orform, the pakistani taliban? because — look, he can be excused. he doesn't know what is happening in pakistan. he hasjust been parachuted into pakistan's politics. he doesn't know what is happening on the ground. i opposed the army going into the tribal areas. i did not agree with that. and, because of that, i was called pro—taliban. so it was a george bush thing — "either you're with us or you're against us," so if you are anti—the war on terror, that means you are pro—terrorist. so this is as naive and silly as that. all right, but where do you stand on the taliban, imran khan? injune, 2002 you addressed the workers convention in pakistan
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and said you are very much inspired by the taliban's system ofjustice, and that "i will establish the same system in the country, after assuming power." let me explain to you what the taliban system was — of justice was. it was what's in the pashtun and tribal areas, what the system of justice is. and what is it? they have a jury. every village has a jury. they listen to the cases. people get free justice. all people have access to justice there. for instance — forget the taliban. in tribal areas of pakistan, they have been the most peaceful areas until this war on terror, the reason being people have access to justice. every village has a jury. it sits down, it listens to two people, and it dispensesjustice, and there were crime—free areas. have you changed your mind now, imran khan? you said that in 2002. because this is the pakistan taliban, the same one who in 2014 carried out the attack in the school on peshawar. 145 people killed, nearly
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all of them children. we know malala yousafzai — also attempted murder by the pakistan taliban.
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