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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  June 15, 2018 12:30am-1:01am BST

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our top story. the world cup has opened in moscow with a spectacular opening ceremony. president vladimir putin welcomed millions of watching fans to what he called his open, hospitable and friendly nation. and the hosts won in style, easily beating saudi arabia 5—nil in the tournament's opening game. it was the first of 64 matches to be played across the country, with the final in a month's time. america's secretary of state says north korea must completely denuclearise if it wants sanctions to be lifted. mike pompeo was speaking in beijing, where he held talks with the chinese premier. and this video is trending on bbc.com. the cat said to have psychic powers which picked russia to beat saudi arabia in the opening match of the world cup. achilles chooses from two bowls of food marked with flags. his success rate in this world cup so far — 100%. that's all from me now. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news it's time for hardtalk with zeinab badawi.
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welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. the new ethiopian government is making dramatic reforms in the country. the state of emergency had been lifted, the military and intelligence chiefs have been replaced, and opposition politicians have been released en masse from prison. one of those released is andargachew tsege, a prominent opposition leader from the organisation, patriotic ginbot7.
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he had been on death row in an ethiopian jail for four years. will his group renounce violence and will he go back to ethiopia to help build the country's future? andargachew tsege, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. so, you were at the airport in yemen in 2014, and then you were arrested and taken to ethiopia, en route to eritrea where your group is based. tell us briefly what happened. as you said, i was in transit, and i have a feeling the ethiopian authorities somehow got the knowledge i was in yemen. perhaps they used the very corrupt intelligence officers, paid a lot of money, i believe, and took me out of the waiting room. and they passed me to the ethiopian intelligence officers six hours
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later, and they kept me in the airport room. the intelligence officers, four of them, they handcuffed me behind my back and used heavy—duty silver tape to tape my eyes and mouth and took me to a waiting plane. i did not know where i was being taken. that must have been very painful to have thick tape across your eyes and mouth. especially when they handcuffed you. it was very, very painful. anyway, it is the way they transported me to ethiopia. you ended up in a jail? not a properjail. just a villa, and they had a room with no windows, just a small hole near the thing,
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and i was kept there for a year and a month until was taken to the federal prison, the legal prison. as a true leader of this opposition group, ginbot 7, you had been sentenced in absentia in 2012 to death. how were you treated in prison? you were valuable to authorities. for many days they did not remove the handcuffs. for five days? i did not sleep. with your hands at the back, it does not matter if they are in the front. i prefer at the time to be shot because it hurt so much. what about the tape? the tape and the chain on my legs, that went on for five days. the handcuffs, they brought it to the front, and that was kept for a month. the chains on my legs were kept for three months.
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but until i saw the british ambassador after a month or a month or a half, i was not sure what would be my fate because i did not know where i was. you thought that you might just be executed. yeah, and just dumped somewhere. although you are an ethiopian opposition figure, you have a british passport, that is why you mentioned the british ambassador. but your wife said i would have thought the uk would have clarity on this issue and say "yes, this is wrong, that you had been abducted and kept in prison like this." were they helpful? it was a bit of
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different with my wife. she is under so much pressure and was demanding a lot. for me, the site of a british ambassador just by itself was a relief because at that time i was certain they would not take a drastic measure. i knew now the outside world and knew where i was. the british helped you? yeah, that was the beginning. and they were helping, because i had nothing, really. it was just sort of confinement. they demanded i be treated well a number of times and that i be seen by a doctor or a medical person. especially ones i was out of the hands of the security and transferred to the federal prison, they did what they could. the nature of the ethiopian government, you know... what do you mean did what they could? sometimes, in these countries with dictators running these nations, you push them sometimes and it can backfire, you know? they tried in a very
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gentle diplomacy, in fact. what i needed really most was a contact to the outside world. i was on my own. four years in prison, and then, at the end of may, you were released, when thousands of prisoners, many of them political prisoners, were released by the new prime minister, muhamed. you were involved in ethiopian politics for a long time. in 2005, you went back to ethiopia from britain, and got involved in politics. you came back to the uk. look at you, a major ethiopian opposition figure, you cannot have dual nationality because if the ethiopia does not allow that. it is convenient if when things get rough you can come back to the united kingdom. i would have preferred to work in a country where i could contribute a lot. this is the way things are. there were many opposition figures who did not have the luxury of a british passport who had a really tough time staying
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in the country, trying to change things from within. that really saved me from the abduction, you know? but it does... it does help as well. in 2008, in exile, you formed the patriotic ginbot 7, the opposition group, you are the secretary general of it. did you have a clear vision beyond just opposing the government then and beyond ? more than any political group in human history, it is this organisation that has a very clear vision. it is based on the outcome of the 2005 election. that election was rigged, you know? we believe the opposition won it. they used his army and his security forces.
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and the opposition went to court, and it was filled with political cadres of the ruling party, so we got no result. we took it to the streets, but the demonstration was banned. we really reflected, what was the problem with that election and why are the grievances of the people not addressed? unless you are in independent institution, organisation, to make democracy functional in a country like ethiopia, there is no point going to an election. 0ur point was to make elections conducted fairly. ginbot 7 was committed to achieving its objectives
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you outlined by any means, you have said. earlier in 2012, your party's supporters said they wanted to consider all means to take the ruling power down by armed struggle. some of the supporters of ginbot7 said that. armed struggle is fundamental to your means? no. look at the guise that formed ginbot7. they had a history that has really caused so much pain in our lives. lost a brother to the army. the chairman lost his sister, who was 20, a student, a classmate as well, you know? we were very, very reluctant to add violence... but the head of foreign affairs forginbot7, based in the uk, told hardtalk on the ninth of april this year, in many parts of ethiopia
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we continue through armed struggle and civil disobedience. we espouse not only armed struggle, but all forms of struggle, like civil disobedience. so using force is part of your methods? look at the 2005 election. look at the terror conducted by the regime in power. they cornered us in a position where at least we should assert the moral rights of dissent. since we have declared that we have not fired a single... in 2012, you were ruled guilty along with 22 others of attempted
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terrorism carried out inside ethiopia. it is said ginbot7 have claimed major attacks in northern ethiopian, march, 2017, several attacks, also in may, 2016, the southern district of alba minch, it is said ginbot 7 killed 20 soldiers and injured 50. and the chairman of ginbot 7, your organisation, said this is an indication of the beginning of the fight in all directions in the country. you do carry out attacks in ethiopia? i was in prison but i can tell you as an organisation, ginbot 7, i do not think has fired a single bullet. why was your colleague... perhaps it is referring to what has happened in all of these areas.
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you have not heard about killing 20 soldiers and injuring 50? not at all. i was in prison... i understand that, but you are secretary general. i was completely denied of any... i had no access to the news! ijust assume now, and since i got out, no one informed me that if this organisation took these measures, i would have known about it. i believe, in fact, there was a countrywide resistance, and it was part of the resistance, a number of groups could take measures like that. but not ginbot seven. but the ginbot 7 is still banned technically in ethiopia, it was banned because it was seen as a terror organisation. who are the terrorists? well, we have that with the authorities. who was a terrorist? a government that has killed over 1,000 protesters and put all elected parliamentarians in prison!
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they stay in power using terror. we morally accept our moral rights rather than wanting to use violence. so, will you renounce violence now? of course. with the situation in ethiopian, the way it is developing now, we want to engage in politics in a civil way. we definitely renounce it. we were reluctant, you know? we were pushed into it. are you, you doing that? no question, there is a process. there's no question that we will be very eager because it is not good for a country like ethiopia. it is a very complex and very sensitive countries. did this come up when you had a 90—minute face—to—face conversation
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with the prime minister, abiy ahmed, on your release. did you say to him, "we are going to renounce violence, mr prime minister?" franly, he didn't ask me but our conversation covered a lot of issues. he assumed, in fact, you know... he knows us as well for some reason, what sort of individuals that we are. you know, those who formed ginbot 7. he's got great confidence, in fact, in the way we would handle, in fact, the changes in ethiopia. did he said he was not banning you, did you get the impression... did he tell you, did you ask if you could be un—banned? i didn't ask him, there were a number of officials there, i'm sure he's going to do it soon. he's taken a measure in allowing or giving really the right for berhanu to return, berhanu nega, the chairman, to return to ethiopia. and a number of other opposition leaders as well. berhanu nega, of course, is based in eritrea, where ginbot 7 is, and eritrea, of course,
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and ethiopia have had bad relations to put it mildly for many, many years. fought a very vicious, difficult warfor 30 years and around 80,000 on both sides total died. do you think it is wise to be based in eritrea, or still to be based in eritrea? we're not based in eritrea. we have a very good relationship with eritrea. there are a few members within eritrea, but our organisation is based in ethiopia in the diaspora. but our relationship with eritrea is not really based on short—term gain. just really for the sake of really getting assistance to fight and struggle against the current government. in fact, my view about eritreans has helped in convincing the current prime minister to take the measure he's taken, in fact.
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what is your view? you've met isaias afwerki, the long—time leader of eritrea, is this the man that abiy ahmed could do business with? i think he can do. there are a lot of things the outside world despise or doesn't know about the eritreans. i believe, i strongly believe. of course there are some issues. but there will. .. i have a feeling there is going to be peace between ethiopia and eritrea, and a very close relationship in all aspects as well. with abiy ahmed, as i said, you met him for an hour and a half, what kind of issues did you discuss? one issue is what he would do, you know? all the different measures he would take in order to convince the opposition groups and leaders. did he convince you that this is somebody you can trust? yeah, he did, yeah, a lot. what was the personal chemistry like with you and the new prime minister, abiy ahmed? he told me there was a lot of resistance within his party. he said to the ruling party,
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either he would resign or i would be released. he gave them that sort of choice. that's what he told me. i was surprised really, you know, that he raised the stakes that high for my release. that was the beginning of our good relationship i think. so the prime minister actually put his job on the line and threatened to resign unless you were released? that is also exactly his words. i believe him as well because i knew how much resistance he would face within his party. there are individuals or groups within his party that hate my guts, i tell you! he has made very, very dramatic changes. awol allo, an ethiopian analyst at keele university in the uk, says abiy‘s appointment has led to moves of tectonic movements, almost revolutionary. "abiy offers the best chance for the kind of change that people are calling for." as i've said, he's changed the military and intelligence chiefs, liberalising the economy so more investment can come in. all sorts of things, releasing opposition figures such as you. he does offfer the best chance, doesn't he? i can't comment on the measures he's taken for the economy because i'm not an economist. but the most essential topic in ethiopia, or thing, is the political.
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once you've solved the political problems in ethiopia then it is easy to solve the economic and social problems. so in the politicalfront, what he's taken is very encouraging. but there are a number of things that should be done. replacing the security chief, or the army chief, is one thing, but to change, you know, the state institutions to impartial institutions that serve all people, all opposition, all political groups is another thing. there's work to be done there too. one big challenge for any leader, including you in your opposition group, is to appeal to all ethiopians. you're from the amhara people, form about 27% of the population in ethiopia, and the fact of the matter, even though you say you are for all ethiopians, your support base is largely still amhara, just as the new prime minister, abiy ahmed, is from the 0romo, and they form about 44%
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of the population, and, once again, he's got a lot of support from the 0romo. how can you as ethiopians appeal to ethiopians of all tribal backgrounds? well, i mean, ginbot7, maybe the rank—and—file members could be probably more amhara. that we could admit. but the entire leadership, there are fewer amharas than others, like the chairman. you've admitted most of your supporters are from the amhara. it's an issue, isn't it, mainly because you've got an ethnic, federalist system? in the country, yeah, but as an organisation, we are trying to fight lots of people from different ethnic groups and we have to work on that to make it more multi—ethnic, multinational, as we put it in ethiopia. but it is a problem. it is a problem. we've just seen the creation of a new national movement of amhara, and that shows you that ethnic identity‘s still very important. identity politics has been entrenched now for 27 years, and that's one of the major problems the current prime minister would be facing.
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but the way he's going about it, all his focus is... is towards solving this ethnic problem and creating really a unified country. what assurances did the prime minister abiy ahmed give you that you would be welcome in ethiopia? he demanded, in fact, that i shouldn't go back to england as fast as i... i met him, the very evening that i met him i was leaving. the assurance he gives you is personal. we wanted to give him assurance based on law and institutions. the goodwill of our prime minister is one thing, but you don't know what the person who is in the security services could do to a person. what did he want you to stay in ethiopia to do? join a political party, join the government? or what? talk to different political government groups close to him and affiliated with him.
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those groups that came from abroad as well. he said i should really take my time and discuss. because he's having a big public consultation, isn't he, appealing to all opposition groups to return and take part in the political process. the elections are due in 2020, will you stand and in what capacity? in my case, as you know, i'm a british national and ethiopian law doesn't allow any... so would you give up your british passport, take an ethiopian one and stand? we will have to see in the coming months or a year's time. you cannot say no to that. when will you go back? we haven't finished discussing really and appraising the condition in ethiopia with my fellow comrades outside. we need to have a very thorough discussion and come up with our own road planning for how this transition should go. finally, do you feel like you want to be part of the effort to build ethiopia? that has been our dream
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and our ambition all throughout. it's not only me but those in ginbot 7, they would love to do that, provided the condition in ethiopia is conducive. andargachew tsege, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you for having me, zeinab. thank you. hello once again, thanks forjoining me. let's get you right up to date with how we see the next few days or so across all parts of the british isles. storm hector pretty much lived up to what we expected of it.
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some of the gusts were really quite disruptive. this was the damage as seen in muirkirk, in the eastern side of ayrshire. but it wasn't like it everywhere. further south, once the frontal system cleared away, yes, it was a breezy old day, but at least there was some sunshine to speak of, and that will be the way of it for the most part on friday, as well. there's hector heading away towards the top end of the north sea, up into the norwegian sea. still quite a powerful beast, so it will still be quite breezy across northern parts of scotland, but nowhere near the sort of strength that we saw during the course of thursday. there will still be quite a raft of showers, longer spells of rain getting into central, western parts of scotland initially, then gradually dribbling away a little bit further east. further south, the odd isolated shower, no great organisation about them, and the top temperature on the day of 22. so the weekend — saturday showers, if not longer spells of rain, but the weekend by no means a write—off. here we are on saturday with quite an active little frontal system for the sort of top half of the british isles. so northern parts of wales, the north midlands, and all points north at some point in the day seeing some really quite heavy rain. further south, the trailing portion of that weather front, well, there'll be a lot of cloud,
quote
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there'll be the odd bit and piece of rain. gardeners, that won't be the answer to your prayers. that frontal system takes the time to move away as the low pressure transfers away off into the north sea. and there's a little ridge of high pressure just follows on behind, trying to set sunday up as a better day than saturday. and it will succeed, for the most part, although you really couldn't rule out, later in the day, perhaps a cold frontjust dragging more cloud and the prospect of a wee bit of rain into the far west of england, western wales, and then arcing away to the south—west of scotland, maybe up into northern ireland too. so generally speaking, on sunday, the further north and east you are, the drier and brighter your day should be. here we move you from sunday on into monday, and again a little weak ridge of high pressure just trying to settle things down across the southern half of the british isles. looking further north, well, you've still got that prospect of a south—westerly breeze, probably a bit of it, as well, and just about enough in the way of cloud for there to be showers, if not longer spells of rain, again affecting the western side of scotland, and perhaps ireland too. but, in the sunshine further south, 23 could be yours. i'm mariko 0i in singapore.
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the headlines: the world cup kicks off in moscow. after a spectacular opening ceremony, the hosts win big over saudi arabia. america's secretary of state says north korea must completely denuclearise if it wants sanctions to be lifted. i'm kasia madera in london. also in the programme. "insubordinate but not biased" — the us department ofjustice criticises former fbi directorjames comey for his handling of an investigation into hilary clinton's e—mails. and, on board with the man new zealander's call
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the "first bloke". he tells us about life with his partner, the country's prime minister, jacinda ardern.
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