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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  June 26, 2018 4:30am-5:00am BST

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this is bbc news. the headlines: president trump has criticised the motorcycle maker, harley—davidson, for deciding to move some production outside the us. it says it made the decision to avoid retaliation by the eu against new american import duties. mr trump said he was surprised the firm was the first to "wave the white flag". the pentagon has confirmed that two military bases in texas will be used as temporary camps to house migrants. last week, president trump said he would end the practice of separating these migrants from their children. it's not known if families will be allowed to stay at the camps together. members of parliament in britain have approved controversial plans to build a third runway at heathrow airport. it's claimed the project will create tens of thousands ofjobs and help britain compete internationally. critics say the impact on local people and the environment will be devastating. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk.
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when historians write their versions of donald trump's extraordinary ascent to the presidency, prominence will surely be given to my guest. the former director of the fbi — james comey. he was a republican hired by a democratic president, whose handling of two key investigations — into hillary clinton's e—mails and allegations of russian interference in the 2016 election — polarised america. his recent memoir was a withering condemnation of the man who fired him, president trump. but has james comey sullied his own reputation by stepping into america's political swamp? james comey, welcome to hardtalk.
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thanks for having me on, stephen. you have described yourself as a man who finds it uncomfortable to be in the limelight, the spotlight. and yet, for the last two years that is precisely where you have been and presumably chosen to being. outcome? as fbi director i was stuck there, i ended up as the referee in the middle of the nasty as world cup football match we had ever seen and since i got fired i decided i couldn't look myself in the mirror ifi couldn't look myself in the mirror if i didn't share my view of what ethical leadership should look like. involuntarily, for the first part,
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voluntarily now. i suppose it invites people to wonder whether there is an element of personal ego, even a vanity in the way you have conducted yourself in this highly contentious years. sure. that is equitable —— totally reasonable question, i will prove it is not about me trying to be famous by going away once this period is over, you recognise me in airports any more. but before that, sure. i get why people ask that. it is not true and if it will stare at the way we make decisions it was not about ego. you say it is not true, i reflect on your memoir, you talk about the way your memoir, you talk about the way you saw working in new york as a prosecutor with the chief prosecutor in new york at the time and you say it took me a while to realise that rudy giuliani was not given with a whole lot of humility, the cost of that imbalance is that there was
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very little oxygen left to others. now that you have some distance over what has happened over the past two yea rs what has happened over the past two years and your conduct as leader of the fbi, do you think you fell into the fbi, do you think you fell into the same trap? no. because i learnt from those mistakes and my weaknesses. as my mother would say, i was hot stuff when i was a young person and met a young woman and had people who beat that out on the. when i was at the fbi had people surrounding me when i and would tell me when i was a fool, impulsive and when i was wrong so that is not a fair criticism because of the folks i had around me. they may have told you you were impulsive in your early days, you have been told by the inspector general of thejustice department who spent a year and a half looking at your leadership and your behaviour is when handling the hillary clinton e—mails investigation, the inspector general concluded that it acted at times with an extreme form of
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insubordination. that is impulsive, that suggest that in the end it was about you and your determination to do it your way. i don't think so, though. it is fair criticism, but not based on decisions made on impulse. i knew exactly what i was doing and made careful consideration, argued about it with my senior staff and decided the best way to protect the institutions of justice was to separate myself from my boss, i knew i was doing. i wasn't doing it impulsively, not of anger or ego, i was doing it because i thought it was the best of two bad choices. one was bad and the other was worse so choices. one was bad and the other was worse so i choices. one was bad and the other was worse so i chose choices. one was bad and the other was worse so i chose bad. it is a big word, insubordination, particularly for a guy who spend a lot of time saying that his computer -- is lot of time saying that his computer —— is commitment is entirely to institutional integrity, to the rule of law and due process. to remind people what you did injuly 2016 is
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ignored due process when you took it upon yourself to go out there and tell the united states and the world that you were closing the investigation into hillary clinton's misuse of e—mails and there would be no charges brought. that was insubordination. yes, in the inspector general‘s view. i had an emotional reaction when they called the insubordinate, but i actually think it was fair and i did the insubordinate, but i actually think it was fairand i did it the insubordinate, but i actually think it was fair and i did it on process “— think it was fair and i did it on process —— purpose. think it was fair and i did it on process -- purpose. it is not about due process. you are saying you are bigger than the system, the institutions and the proper way to do things. no. iam institutions and the proper way to do things. no. i am a servant of the institutions and respect the norms, that would be i stand next to the attorney general, but given the circumstances and her compromise, if i kept at the institution i cannot do it the normal way. there is nothing normal about this and as a servant i had to do something i knew would be bad for me personally, not to step away from the attorney
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general and speak as we speak together but separately. you didn't just choose to break the rules, you also explicitly blamed mrs clinton for what you called extremely careless behaviour is in a way that, again was unprecedented, because here you are declaring no charges we re here you are declaring no charges were to be brought and normally, and are due process in the american system, if no charges were to be brought you wouldn't go on to detail her misbehaviour is and again, the inspector general says this violated long—standing department practice and protocol. only in this respect. you are right that in the normal case on the close an investigation we say nothing. for many years, in cases of extended public interest, the departmentjustice cases of extended public interest, the department justice has cases of extended public interest, the departmentjustice has long talked about the conduct of people who were not charged. twice it had happened in the months before this announcement for good reason. a difference here was, where i
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departed from practices, i didn't do it with the attorney general, normally she would take the lead. exactly. you are putting the post that you held, director of the fbi, before the united states public and the world in a way that was deeply exposing. you were being political. the guy that's as the fbi has the above politics, you were being deeply political. i don't agree. respectfully. i was being deeply respectful of american confidence in the systems of justice respectful of american confidence in the systems ofjustice and thought the systems ofjustice and thought the only way, the least bad way to maintain confidence is to offer transparency. i wasn't trying to attack hillary clinton, i was trying to be transparent with the american people so they could have confidence in the result. in myjudgement, others can it differently, i thought and still think if i do it next to the attorney general, who just had a private meeting with till clinton on a private aircraft, the american people will not have confidence in the result. in essence, in this
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part, an extraordinary sensitive process , part, an extraordinary sensitive process, you work for a dogged? hardly. —— playing god. ifi process, you work for a dogged? hardly. —— playing god. if i was playing god i could see the future and that would have maybe at better leader. was making judgements in the middle of a terrible situation. thing about this. one of the two candidates of the president is under investigation but the attorney —— the attorney general said i will accept the attorney general said i will accethames the attorney general said i will accept james comey‘s recommendation. isaidi accept james comey‘s recommendation. i said i would do it but i would separately so the american people understand it was done well and they can rely on it. we have got a lot to get through, let's get onto the next key decision that you had to take. that was when you learned just a a few days before election day, november 2016, that a new store of hillary clinton e—mails had been found in the laptop computer
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belonging to a former congressman, you again took the lunar and —— the unilateral decision that you had to tell the american congress and public that you are reopening the investigation into hillary clinton. literally 11 days before polling day. you must have known that that was cut to have an extraordinary impact on people's political thinking. i knew it might have some impact, i didn't know what impact. but i saw two choices. i could do that, which is really bad and with the norms i have lived under in the department ofjustice, or i could reseal that we had restarted the investigation. one much worse, concealing what we now knew to be a lie to the american people during the summer that we are done here, that that was no longer true, would be devastating. i didn't do it unilaterally. i told the attorney general i think i need to do this!
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but it turned out that you actually had time to go through the e—mails, to find out whether there was anything new and significant and conclude there wasn't before election day. so why not get your staff to double—team it, to figure out those e—mails were not important before election day, rather than run the risk of changing the result of that election? that would have been godlike. that would have been a wonderful thing, i couldn't see the future. days before the election the investigating team said sir, we cannot finish this review before the election. that was plain wrong. it was an. raced on what we knew then, we didn't have the capabilities ——. you had to read an overnight and we built a software system to cut it down to 6000 e—mails. they finished the sunday before the election, but i can't live life backwards. on october 28 the 16th i am being told in ways that are credible, we cannot
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finish before this election. what do ido? speak finish before this election. what do i do? speak or conceal? the bottom line is, hillary clinton to the state believes that you cost her the election, not that it wasn't close, but you cost her the election because you tilted a significant body of opinion against her because people thought she was yet again under suspicion, a cloud of suspicion and she blames you. i wonder whether right now you are still haunted by the thought that you, in essence, dictated the result of that election. i am not wanted by it, but i carry it around. the sense of slight sickness in my stomach as we don't want to have any impact on the election at all, we would rather not be on the field during this particular game. we are on the field and have to choose between two options, we cannot consider the political outcome because if we do that we are just another part player in washington. one of my lawyers
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asked me before that, should you consider that you will help elect donald trump as president? great question. i can't! donald trump as president? great question. ican't! down donald trump as president? great question. i can't! down that road lies the death of the fbi. what is the right thing given the values of the right thing given the values of the institution? do i speak or conceal? let's turn to donald trump. it seems to me that in your dealings with donald trump from the very get 90, with donald trump from the very get go, before the inauguration of january 2017, new, very far from bringing eight blank slate to your view of him, you are deeply suspicious and get people of him from the start. that comes out clearly in your recollections in your memoir. sure, that is because i ama your memoir. sure, that is because i am a human being. i evaluate people who work for me and who i work for. it becomes political if you are from the very get go, likening the way he deals with you and that situations, likening him to a mafia don, mafia
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boss. that is notjust personal, that becomes political stop it —— political. i don't see it... the director of the fbi concluding from your first meetings the political equivalent of a mafia boss? not in the sense that he is robbing banks, thatis the sense that he is robbing banks, that is what struck me. that is based on reason, logic and experience. some of what you write is actually just experience. some of what you write is actuallyjust downright personal. some about his look, his hair, the size of his hands, which you made observations in the earliest beatings with him suggest that you had an animosity towards him.|j reject that. read the book and i have tried to be an author and as an investigator i have a good eye for detail. i described my high school boss, my other bosses, the people i work with in great detail. yes i noticed donald trump's hair colour,
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how he dressed, how he sat and spoke, that is not a political judgement, that is an observation. but it smacks of a negative opinion that you brought to the table. but it smacks of a negative opinion that you brought to the tablelj but it smacks of a negative opinion that you brought to the table. i had a negative opinion and it was fact —based. i had serious concerns about his ability to respect the obligation to tell the truth. let's talk about the way you handled incredibly important encounters, one in particular were donald trump, early on in generally, asked if you can count on his loyalty. you knew that was in the nature of the relationship as it was supposed to be. you didn't confront him. you didn't take him on. you can save mr president, that's not the way it works. i didn't. i don't president, that's not the way it works. ididn't. idon't thinki had the presence of mind and the moment. i was so shocked by the explicit the man. all i could think of was just stare at him and not react. i got better towards the end of the conversation. in hindsight, i can
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think of all kinds of things to do better in the conversation. that's all i could do in the moment. better in the conversation. that's all! could do in the moment. since then, you've written, it is wrong to stand idly by all stay silent when you know better. do you feel you let yourself down? not in general, in that conversation, because i ended up that conversation, because i ended up interrupting him to give him a bit of a tutorial on how it should be but in the moment, if i were more experienced, i might have said, mr president, you can't do that. again, another crucial encounter was the desire dinner inside the white house when donald trump raised the case of michael flynn. valentine's day, in the oval office. he expressed the hope that you could, quote, let it go. do you believe, in retrospect, that was the president in essence
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performing an act that amounted to obstruction of justice? performing an act that amounted to obstruction ofjustice?” performing an act that amounted to obstruction ofjustice? i don't know if it mounts to legal obstruction. understudy was asking me to drop a criminal investigation which could be. you didn't say, mr president, thatis be. you didn't say, mr president, that is deeply inappropriate, i abide by the truth, the rule of law. you didn't say of that? i did not. the question you would have too asked him, if you didn't know it was inappropriate, why didn't you clear the room? inappropriate, why didn't you clear the room ? the inappropriate, why didn't you clear the room? the attorney general of the room? the attorney general of the united states, so he could speak to me alone. but didn't demur tutorial. trump now calls you lyin' jim comey. he tweets his dislike of you at every opportunity. you in turn have calls him a liar, many worse things as well. you have said he believed he threatens the values and institutions that you believe the united states represents. how
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damaging to trust, both in your institution in the fbi, is the mud that you and donald trump are throwing at each other.” that you and donald trump are throwing at each other. i don't see it as throwing mud. i don't tweet insults at him. i am showing a picture of what ethical leadership should look like in this book. i have to talk about him if i'm going to talk about ethical leadership so i don't talk about it as a mud fight. you might not call it might but you said, trumping a set —— trump is unethical, trumpism do that to the truth, trump tells lies, he is morally unfit to be president. in my mind, that is the truth in if i don't speak the truth as an american, shame on me. universe that too. 40% of americans who are resolute supporters of donald trump would say, how dare you come out
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with these opinions and declare with such righteousness that this is the truth. i think they agree with me in the main. even if you support donald trump, you know he lies all the time. you think it is for the greater good. they serious people think more people attended his inauguration and barack obama's, and other lies. supporters of donald trump in good faith think that's ok because he is doing so many other things for america. i don't think there is serious disagreement with my view that he lies very frequently. i just my view that he lies very frequently. ijust think it's unacceptable and no trade is worth that kind of conduct. let us try the lies to the mueller investigation. you are more well—placed than anyone to know what happened because you we re to know what happened because you were leading the investigation when you got that russia dossier build—up by the former british agent christopher steel which had some
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sensational allegations about what donald trump may have gotten up to in moscow on a trip some years ago and which seemed, on the face of it, to offer up and which seemed, on the face of it, to offerup an and which seemed, on the face of it, to offer up an explanation for collusion with the russians, if he we re collusion with the russians, if he were vulnerable to blackmail. did you believe that dossier when you sort? i believe the core allegation of the dossier which was consistent with other intelligence, we already had. that the russians were interfering. the rest, i didn't know what to make of. the prostitute thing? i didn't care of that was true orfalse. thing? i didn't care of that was true or false. surely must have cared if he was vulnerable to blackmail. which is why we told them about that so he would know the allegation and know the fbi was aware of it. in the event there were some of the bridge, that would reduce the ability to coerce him. the fbi was trying to figure out, you know the core allegation is true in the dossier. how much of the rest
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of this can be verified or rule out? i don't know are attended up. you we re i don't know are attended up. you were fired in may 2017, the legwork in the continuing of this long investigation into alleged russian interference, it is now being undertaken by robert mueller. have you spoken to him? what is your gut feeling about where that investigation is going on the chances of donald trump being impeached and not completing a 4— year term? i don't know. won't you bea year term? i don't know. won't you be a key witness? sure, and am not going to talk about interactions but iama going to talk about interactions but i am a great talk about robert mueller himself. i don't know where he will end up in a mode don't like that democrats and republicans wish for a particular result, i hope he finds the truth and that may not be bad for president trump. but if he is left to do his work, he will find those facts which given the best truth —— the best view of what the
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truth —— the best view of what the truth is. i want to end by considering the damage done to the united states over the last couple of years. he stressed the important —— the importance of this reservoir of trust that the fbi has in the united states. i look at the latest surveys that pbs did which shows a dramatic drop in the number of americans who think the fbi in all this just trying to do its job and a real rise in the number who think the fbi has been biased against the trump administration. one could argue those numbers reflect failings in your leadership. i understand why you could argue that. decisions are made, i took a big you could argue that. decisions are made, itooka big —— i took you could argue that. decisions are made, i took a big —— i took a you could argue that. decisions are made, itooka big —— i tooka big hit. the question i had to ask, what is the alternative and how big would that it be? part of the reason is, the lies we are being told about the organisation. the fbi was on hillary clinton's side? that's the
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allegation. you should check that with hillary clinton who thinks the fbi cost to the election. you're going to liar, you have to lie about all the facts. we were the referee on the field of a better match. everybody ended up mad at us but because we were doing ourjob without regard to either team. final thought, which is a big thought about the faith americans have in a government and their institutions and the degree to which they can trust them. how much damage has been done? significant damage but not long—lasting damage. the great thing about america is its values are so deep and strong. no president or party can screw it up. we have been through this before. we have progressed, we breach wrench. we will be ok song as we talk about the values that matters are normally
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consumes our time. and will get back to arguing about other things. can the recovery begin? can the cycle go on an upswing as long as donald trump is in the white house? yes, in a way. donald trump is creating a focus in the united states on truth and our values that was not true two yea rs and our values that was not true two years ago. look at the number of young people running for office, schools were instituting civics education, families talking to their kids about respect and prejudice and truth. the change is happening in a way he doesn't intend. donald trump is eliminating what happens in america. the outcry of children in cages. democrats, republicans, independents rose up and said, we may disagree but this is not america and he was forced to change that. that is donald trump unintentionally
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awakening the great ethical giant thatis awakening the great ethical giant that is america. i am optimistic. you lead the fbi, would you consider a typical —— a political career? no, no. i love one word answers. we will end it there. james comey, thank you. thank you, stephen. i whether you like it or not, there is absolutely no end in sight in sight to this hot spell we are experiencing right now and it is a heatwave, temperatures will remain well above average for the rest of the week and into the weekend as well. monday was the hottest day of the year so far, 30 degrees celsius, and many of us
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experienced temperatures in the high or mid—20s and the jet stream is way to the north of us across iceland there, rushing into northern scandinavia with a bit of a dip here into the mediterranean. we will talk about what that means for the med in a second but as far as we're concerned, high pressure dominating the scene stretching into scandinavia and the whole of west and central europe and southern parts of scandinavia will be warming up so through the early hours, very little happening on the weather front. all the weather is bypassing to the north of us, so way above my head, closer to iceland. the morning will be mild, warm in the south. a little bit chilly in eastern scotland and the north—east of england, possibly single figures and we have a strong sunshine right from the word go on tuesday. beautiful day, some of us loving it, for some of us, a bit too hot but what we find is more of an onshore breeze around these eastern coasts and the north sea is relatively cool is still so temperatures won't be all that high in hull and norwich.
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he deep orange is displaced further to the west and that is where the highest temperatures will be. i suspect around 30 in the midlands, london maybe only the high 20s, for example, on tuesday. i mentioned thejet stream dipping into the mediterranean. here we have a low pressure and the weather is not all that great around greece, the greek islands. 25 degrees celsius expected in athens. we are actually warmer here in the uk than in athens, at least on wednesday, but that will change. athens hotting up to about 30 degrees in the next couple of days. back to the uk, a lot of hot weather around midweek. that is an onshore breeze around the kent coast, east anglia, that north sea coast. hulland norwich, a bit cooler, the low 20s. high 20s expected further west. even belfast, getting up to around 26 degrees, 28 in the lowlands of scotland. you don't need to be a meteorologist to guess that the next few days, sunshine galore, as i said,
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whether you like it or not. bye— bye. this is the briefing. i'm samantha simmonds. our top story: the pentagon says two military bases in texas are to be used as temporary camps to house migrants. it's not known if families will be allowed to stay there together. delight and despair at the world cup, as portugal and spain make the knockout stages. i'm rajini vaidyanathan in moscow, where it's crunch time for argentina, denmark and france. we look ahead to today's crucial world cup deciders. fake news fuels a murder spree in southern india. police demand an end to dangerous rumours on social media. clear for take—off: the uk‘s parliament vote in favour of an expansion of london's main airport, heathrow.
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business groups welcome the decision but environmentalists are up in arms.
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