they're seen to be joking, smiling and in good health. they've received the first food and medical supplies since their ordeal began, ten days ago. the thai military says it won't risk the boys‘ safety with a hasty evacuation. poland's chiefjustice has said she'll defy a new law coming into force requiring judges to retire at 65, not 70. malgorzata gersdorf said she'd turn up for work on wednesday as usual, calling the changes unconstitutional and a purge of the judiciary. england are through to the world cup quarterfinals, for the first time since 2006. they beat colombia 4—3 on penalties. on saturday they're set to face sweden — who defeated switzerland by a goal to nil. now on bbc news, it's hartalk with sarah montague. welcome to hardtalk with me, sarah

montague. the president 0bama ‘s time in office, my guest today was by his side, one of his closest confidence. this title was deputy—national security adviser but then roads developed such a close bond with barack 0bama he earned a reputation to be able to anticipate the president's thinking and white house insiders described him as the single most influential boys shaping american policy despite the president. in his new memoir in his time in the 0bama administration, he says, i don't know any more i begin and 0bama ends. so what is it feel about the new occupant of the white house and what he's doing their legacy? ben rhodes, welcome to

hardtalk. how do you explain your connection to president 0bama? well, this is why i wrote the book, to try to explore that but i think fundamentally, he was running for president in 2008 as an outsider and he hadn't built up a network of people that most people running for president do. hillary clinton had sucked up the democratic machine and i was coming in as a relatively outsider at 29 years old. we shared across the frustration. i got into politics to the same reason, after september 11, our government had gotten it wrong in the iraq war and

with a number of other decisions so it entered into this process with the same shared sense of trying to make change. the other reason that is important is when you are a speechwriter, you have to get inside someone's head because you have to learn to write in their voice, how they think and talk, so it was my job, frankly, to be able to anticipate what he wanted to say and do. people seem to suggest it almost went further. you had speechwriter is lots of politicians. was it that your personalities were similar? yes, we had similar personalities. we had very different backgrounds obviously. he is mixed race from hawaii, iam obviously. he is mixed race from hawaii, i am from new york. but i think we had a similar sense of frustration with, again, the way things had been going in american politics and foreign policy. we had a sensibility of being outsiders, even when we were in the white house, which sounds strange. how

would you describe him? you talk about having similar personalities. i would describe him as somebody who is ultimately at the end of the day a very pragmatic person, who wants to make decision and do things based on commonsense. it's something hasn't worked in the past, we should do it differently. he is also someone do it differently. he is also someone who has a bit of a unique background and could be missed red from the left and the right. the notion that he was some kind of radical, deeply misplaced, he was essentially an institutional list. he had a father from essentially an institutional list. he had a fatherfrom kenya, got an education, went back and found there we re education, went back and found there were no institutions. he knocked his father out of politics. 0bama believe he changed institutions. there was this sense that 0bama was never going far enough. they need to

understand he was going to push the boundaries of how much he was going to promote positive change without upending the entire system. he mentioned it was seeing the american response to 9/11 that brought you into politics but you've also written about the moment of 9/11, seeing the plane ‘s the towers. labour i was in graduate school of fiction writing. and i was a writer going into publishing. and the first tower collapsed. i knew in that moment, what i was gay to do with my life is going to be somehow about the response of those events. 0wing to an army recruiter. i have every intention of signing up but they didn't know what to make with me. they couldn't really describe what i

would be doing. what did you think you would be doing? i didn't know. i wa nted you would be doing? i didn't know. i wanted to be a part of how we, the united states, would respond. it led me to washington being a journalist. it is when barack 0bama was a senator that you notice due?|j it is when barack 0bama was a senator that you notice due? i had the luck to work for the 9/11 commission in the united states which assessed the twin events which defined the first decade of the 21st century. i wanted to work to him and i started working for free, not even knowing if we'd been anywhere. that often knowing if we'd been anywhere. that ofte n got knowing if we'd been anywhere. that often got me in the door to meet barack 0bama. there was the moment that he noticed you. was there something he recalled ? that he noticed you. was there something he recalled? there was

this commonsense thread. i walked into a meeting when they were debating whether he should vote in the senate for a bill to fund the iraq war. i was so nervous, i didn't wa nt to iraq war. i was so nervous, i didn't want to speak. when it came to my turn to talk, i said, you have a plan for iraq? you said, yes. i said your plan does x, why, z. why vote fruit, you should vote against it. would he look weak if he didn't fund this. how would it be received? he said, waita this. how would it be received? he said, wait a second, this is the straightforward approach. i don't believe in this, i won't vote for it. since then, you left office, president trump has taken over, a great deal has changed. the trans—pacific partnership, great deal has changed. the

tra ns—pacific partnership, the climate accord, cuba, there have been any number of complete changes. what do you make of those changes, things that you put in place? donald trump, in the absence of a coherent worldview, he will undo it. is that what is driving him? that is part of what is driving him? that is part of what is driving him. we see him pull out of the iran deal, declaring it a disaster, even though it has timelines associated with it and then he goes to north korea and attem pts then he goes to north korea and atte m pts to then he goes to north korea and attempts to de— nuclear is. there is not a substantive basis as to why you would do one thing and then do the other thing with north korea. for me personally, the hardest thing is on some of these policies, particularly cuba row negotiated that with the cubans and the vatican

is, -- that with the cubans and the vatican is, —— the vatican, we raised expectations in cuba. people there said, things are finally going to change for the better and i think those people are being let down and that makes me distressed. president trump has made the point on iran that it's a horrible one—sided deal that it's a horrible one—sided deal that should never have been made. he has the support of israel, benjamin netanyahu has the support of israel, benjamin neta nyahu caused —— has the support of israel, benjamin netanyahu caused —— calling it a recipe for disaster for our region and the world. trump has never articulated wipes the disaster. one of the reasons is there is effectively an expiry. the fact that the matter is, if you are concerned about iran's nuclear programme, if the worst thing is you can say is that it expires in ten or 15 years, why blow it up now? wait ten or 15 yea rs. why blow it up now? wait ten or 15 years. it doesn't take on what iran may doing elsewhere sponsoring terrorism. that completely fails to

hold up when you consider that trump went and embraced kim jong—un, hold up when you consider that trump went and embraced kimjong—un, said nothing about human rights and their assassinations. as far as iran is concerned because in your book, the world as it is, in that book, you made clear that there was nothing has fiercely contested as this nuclear deal. you haven't won people over. diplomacy was more contested than war in the united states. a lot of that can be related to the israeli prime minister, and the united states. but prime minister netanyahu united states. but prime minister neta nyahu ideological ewa united states. but prime minister netanyahu ideological ewa is in a different place and didn't support that type of diplomacy with iran. arai commit to him was, if you are concerned about what iran does in the region, to prevent them getting

a nuclear weapon. it comes down to the pragmatism you are talking about. let us look at syria which is arguably one of the biggest foreign policy failures of your time in the white house. what the president has done there, there were reprisals for the use of chemical weapons, something president 0bama didn't do. his concern was that a limited military strike wasn't going to do it. you weren't going to stop assad from killing his people with a limited cruise missile strike. trump did something around building that. but president 0bama had stated red line. if we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons utilised, that would change my calculus. and then they were used and nothing happened. yes, and i described my

own wrenching experience of syria. i was a huge advocate for military intervention. what he decided, and i wa nted intervention. what he decided, and i wanted to let people think, that there was not a military solution. he wanted to make sure this was set up he wanted to make sure this was set up to succeed. what he found was he didn't have international support, any of the us congress saying it would be unconstitutional. he made a determination. if i act in that capacity and without that support, what is an unlikely course in being able to change things, will definitely fail. he went to congress to get their support. you accept that as a result, he and america we re that as a result, he and america were seen that as a result, he and america were seen to be weak. there is no

question but i also think he would say to me, going to war someplace to show that you do not look weak is not a good way to go to war. if you look at american history, that is why we stayed in vietnam's, just to show we were tough and we were not weak. he was willing to take that criticism rather than get into a war that he thought couldn't succeed. but there were consequences, not least spelt out by his own secretary of defence, robert gates. which i think that russian president putin saw the united states withdrawing from around the world, and president 0bama's actions not embraced the rhetoric and its ascent a message that the us was in retreat. did it emboldened russia ?|j that the us was in retreat. did it emboldened russia? i want to be clear, nobody can be satisfied but on that particular analysis, what

putin was responding to honour and the ukraine in particular, was a sense that we were encircling him. there had been two decades of expansion, the us bought wars of raid chip —— the us fought wars of the raid —— regime change in iraq and libya and that yanokovich was generated by the united states. i think putin was lashing out because he thought we were pressing russia, not that we were withdrawing from around the world. but now you mention in the election, and the former sour a chief who became chief, went putin conducted the cyber attacks during the last election, he felt he could get away with it without any kind of response. against that criticism that there is on to believe that president 0bama was going to do anything. well, the full type named in our response with the russian

intervention is when we did make a public statement and a warning about it, we focus on the cyber attack, that they hacked the dnc, they released these emails. there was this massive information war taking place without disseminating huge volumes of fake news about hillary clinton that is flooding the social media feeds of tens of millions of americans and i don't think we give enough of that context to people and it wasn't as much about punching russia back, we did that, we imposed sanctions and expelled diplomats and i think we could have done more was on conditioning the publish what russia was doing. 0bama's b was essentially that the people consuming that type of news were not inclined to listen to him and if you are reading stories about hillary clinton and how corrupt she is and she is not healthy, barack 0bama is not the person to tell you that is fake. we're urging him to speak out about

the? yeah, and i said in my book, we are warning people about the cyber piece of this but we are not painting a picture of the fake news, which i had seen in the ukraine, how they had generated this ability to generate fake news in the ukraine more context. 0bama said to me look, ifi more context. 0bama said to me look, if i say that, we can't say this is fake, this isn't, tye will say it is rigged, that was his view. that you go further in your book because you say on january five, the go further in your book because you say onjanuary five, the leadership of the intelligence community filed into the office, this is a couple of weeks ahead of president trump's inauguration, briefing on russian meddling. in that, you say they painted a stark picture of a methodical, relentless campaign waged by president putin on behalf of trump. did they suggest you the donald trump knew about that campaign? they did not, and infact, in the us government, at least the way it used to function, the fei does not tell the white house about

investigations of americans. —— fbi. actually was shocked to learn about the fact of the fbi investigation into trump campaign that collusion with russia, i learned about that in the press after we left. we knew about russian interference... yes, but in turn, what we are told about the extent of the russian meddling and to, i mean you're not suggesting that president trump knew about it? ido that president trump knew about it? i do not know whether he did not. first of all, we were told before the election that they were doing this, they were hacking these political organisations, releasing these e—mails, working with wikileaks, creating these e—mails, working with wikilea ks, creating fake these e—mails, working with wikileaks, creating fake news. after the election, president 0bama ordered a review of all the intelligence that we had about this. what happened ? intelligence that we had about this. what happened? that ultimately led up what happened? that ultimately led up to that meeting in the oval 0ffice. up to that meeting in the oval office. the picture that they pieced together between then and the election became more and more alarming, the scale of the russian interference became clearly bigger

and what they were also finding the potentially these connections between trump associates and the russian. are you saying without that effort on behalf of the russians, president trump would not have won the vote, as he did as yellow you know, i think it is or is hard to say after an election that this caused this but yes, i think there is no question that the russian interference had an influence on the election. whether it was the determining factor, you can never get in the minds of voters. what i do know is that if you have millions of voters reading stories and hacked e—mails provided by the russians and the whole election is decided by 100,000 votes in a few states, it is quite likely that the russians swung the election. —— three states. quite likely that the russians swung the election. -- three states. and thatis the election. -- three states. and that is a situation that could still exist? they will try to do it in the upcoming mid—term election. and trump's refusal to acknowledge that this even happened. he is the president of the united states and his own intelligence committee is

telling him that this happens, and he is calling it a witch—hunt, is denying even the fact that russian campaign on his behalf. there are those, not least your fellow democrat bernie sanders, he said of their meeting in north korea with kim jong—un that it was a positive step in the escalating tensions. we give him any form of acknowledgement that that was a success?|j give him any form of acknowledgement that that was a success? i would not call it a success. what i would say isi call it a success. what i would say is i prefer that to where we were, asiam is i prefer that to where we were, as i am glad that he is pursuing diplomacy the north koreans. that is far preferable to a conflict with the north koreans. what i would say though is look, the ah van deal took two years to tee up. he wanted the spectacle of a meeting and they did not do your homework, they did not know what they wanted to get out of the north koreans. so what happens? the north koreans get international legitimacy that comes out of a meeting with the president, which they've never had. they get the sanctions released because if you are china, why would you enforce the

sanctions after this summer to? and in return, the north koreans promised to denuclearise, the same promised to denuclearise, the same promise that they have broken the three presidents, no timeline, no inspection. you say that president trump you think in part is setting out to undo the legacy of your time in the white house of president 0bama. whyi in the white house of president 0bama. why i think is trying to do that? is always had deep-seated hostile at our hostility towards president 0bama and keep in mind this is a guide who launched his career essentially on the birth movement, he was the chief proponent of the idea that 0bama was not born in the united states, demanded that he released his birth certificate, so the animus has been there all along. —— this is a guide. " quy- no iran deal, no paris still, no tpp, i'm going to stop cuba opening, there is no consistency with these

positions other than that they are the opposite of what 0bama was doing. and when you write about how republicans worker 0bama, you talk about racism, is say it was there in the refusal of republicans to work within eight years, something that 0bama was blamed for no matter what he did. do you think that president trump's opposition, not least which you mentioned was founded on the birth movement, was racist? absolutely. this is a man again that declares over and over again publicly that the first ever african—american president was not born in the united states, was born in africa. sometimes you have to call it what it is, that's raises. president 0bama never did. call it what it is, that's raises. president obama never did. not publicly. did he privately? yes, and a say in the book that we would be discussing how to answer questions ona discussing how to answer questions on a tough show like this and he would say well, how much of the opposition to your presidency do you

think is rooted in race or do you think is rooted in race or do you think it is? and he would say yes, of course, next question. —— racist. hisjudgement was that of course, next question. —— racist. his judgement was that he starts talking about racism in public like that, anything else he wants to talk about, no one is going to pay attention. so how much racism did you see against him?|j attention. so how much racism did you see against him? i saw a lot. i mean, look, he faced a stridency of opposition. some of it was over by the way, i mean some of it was not subtle. southern congressman standing up and yelling you lie in the middle of his speeches, the birth of conspiracies, the kind of toxic conspiracy theorising co nsta ntly toxic conspiracy theorising constantly about the 0bama family, the double standards. 0bama played golf, it was all about how dare he? shunt plays golf every weekend. ditty that is rooted in racism, because they were people in the country did not like his politics

and a large portion of the country did not like his politics? yes, absolutely, but i think you would have to be wilfully blind to think that none of that was about racism. donald trump's coalition is overwhelmingly white, it is not... and rooted in states like the american south, that have long histories of racial politics. so for you now, and you do still work with resident 0bama, what is it like watching what you created, what he did in the white house, being undone? is difficult, you know. i have to say though, you develop when you have spent eight years in the white house, a bit of a sense of the longer view of these things. —— it is difficult. they can, the pendulum can swing backjust as hard as it swung towards president 0bama. the next president can come back and be signed the paris climate agreement and reopen the cuba policy. to me it is morejust the and reopen the cuba policy. to me it is more just the office of the presidency, the way he conducts himself in offices kind of unrecognisable to me. so it is more

difficult than it was some other republican who did not like policies doing it. it is the fact that trump shows such disregard for the stewardship of office. and if it is, if president trump is president in the white house for one term, are you suggesting that actually itjust could be just a you suggesting that actually itjust could bejust a blip because somebody else could come in and...” think there is a huge difference between one or two terms, as i describe in the book. a lot of the biggest change second term because it takes us along way to get things done, it takes years to build support and in government, to get things done. i do think though that even long—term, trump is going to do a lot of damage, notjust to the 0bama presidency but to the expectations that americans have their leaders and frankly, to the way that the rest of the world looks at us. i think the rest of the world is looking at the situation and thinking it is notjust trump, but how did the rest of the country elects trump? is notjust picking fights with our allies, he is doing

things that are imprudent. i think america has got to build back some trust. ben rhodes, thank you for coming on hardtalk. thanks a lot, i enjoyed it. hello there. the weather story across the uk of late has been pretty dull and boring — we've had to go to the football for some excitement, haven't we? in fact, yesterday, hardly a cloud in the sky again across much of the country, as depicted by north wales, but some subtle differences as we go through the day today. there'll be a little more cloud around for many of us and there may even be a chance of a shower. why? well, the high pressure isjust weakening its grip a little and it's allowing this plume of showery rain to push up from the south—west.

they'll be very hit and miss and not everywhere will see them, but there is a risk of a few of those, and at the same time, the north—easterly breeze will drag in more cloud across northern england and eastern england throughout the day. so here, that could just have an effect of the feel of the temperature, but let's take a look at these showers in a little more detail, circulating around that south—west area, but we might see one or two just pushing up into southern england as well. so that could be pretty tricky if you're heading off to wimbledon. there is a small chance — only a very small chance — of catching a shower, but it is certainly worth bearing in mind. i suspect there will be a little more cloud around and that, for some of you, may come as welcome news. so this is swi9 with cloudy skies overhead. just an outside chance of a shower, perhaps this is over—reading it a little bit. you really will be unlucky if you do catch one, but it's worth bearing in mind, particularly in comparison to the weather that we've seen of late. but in terms of the feel of things, despite a little more cloud and the risk of a shower,

temperatures are still slightly above the average for the time of year, with 21—24 degrees. now, look at this as we move out of wednesday into thursday, we have got a weather front showing its hand in the far north—west. now, this will be interesting — not much in the way of rain on it but it is going to introduce a wind direction from a north—westerly and behind it, something a little bit fresher. so certainly on thursday, more cloud for northern ireland and for much of scotland, and a noticeable difference here to the feel of the weather. further south and east, we've still got that warmth and we lose the risk of a few showers, so temperatures are going to respond again back up to 29 degrees, as opposed to 15 or 19 degrees in the far north—west. now that weather front will drift out of the way and then high pressure builds again from the south—west so things are going to quieten down as we move towards the weekend, and if you don't believe me, let's have a look at the weekend story. friday into saturday,

temperatures building and the sunshine set to return, highs of 29—30. take care. this is the briefing — i'm sally bundock. our top story: in good spirits: the boys trapped in a flooded cave system in thailand are seen to be joking and smiling. they receive their first food and medical treatment in ten days but rescue could be weeks or months away. a roller—coaster ride in russia as england beat colombia on penalties to reach the world cup quarter—finals. they'll now face sweden. i'm rajini vaidyanathan in moscow where, after three weeks of thrills and upsets, we finally know the last eight teams in the tournament. poland's chief justice refuses to step down as a row over forced retirement hits the country's judiciary.