know what difference the rain will make but i suspect a significant difference in making it longer underwater so the underwater passages will become longer, the flooded sections will be longer and the airspace shorter. if it is pouring with rain, the sooner they get back in and get the rest out, the better. i do not think there is a danger, and immediate danger, of them flooding out where they are and it going to the roof and giving them a life—threatening problem, but it will certainly, the rain, make the rescuing more difficult. i know they will think the sooner the better, but they need to rest, so it is balancing the two. how fit are these chaps, andi balancing the two. how fit are these chaps, and i assume they are all men? i am sorry, i cannot hear you well. how fit are these divers? the divers are very fit. they are

physically pretty fit. rick has just canoed around tasmania, so you have to be fit to do that. they are fit guys, but very experienced cave divers and those two words are important, they are notjust divers, not just cavers, they important, they are notjust divers, notjust cavers, they are cave divers and it is a different mindset underwater, underground. it is more ofa mind underwater, underground. it is more of a mind exercise than a physical exercise. you have to have the right frame of mind to keep cool, calm and collected, which is what everybody has to do. these boys are showing wonderfulfortitude and has to do. these boys are showing wonderful fortitude and for them to keep calm the nine days they were in com plete keep calm the nine days they were in complete darkness is wonderful and it points to the fact they are probably going to be pretty cool and calm coming out underwater. certainly the four coming out now

will have experienced that and got out safely. you know, great, they are coming home, brilliant. you are talking about a mind exercise. are there certain tricks they would've taught the children from their own knowledge? jeff earlier was saying that they will be swimming them around in the pool and trying to get them confident underwater. the fact they cannot swim does not matter much. the fact there is no visibility, almost no visibility in the water, is a shame, but not a serious problem. the big problem is they have to be comfortable underwater. these boys have to be co mforta ble underwater. these boys have to be comfortable underwater, never having been with scuba gear on before. to put them under water like that is obviously a stressful situation. i

think the fact they are young guys is helpful. one, they are small and can get through small places easier than a larger person, they can be manhandled by the divers with them easier than a larger person, and they do not have the life experience, so they probably do not fully realise the extreme danger they are in. those things are factors in the right direction. the fa ct factors in the right direction. the fact they got in there to start with shows they are pretty adventurous kids and they got in this problem because they were being over adventurous. they have got to be over adventurous to get themselves out. they have been down there a fortnight and are in a weak state, obviously they have been fed since they were found, but going into the water, what is the primary concern for someone trying to get them out safely? the absolute primary concern

will be to try to keep them calm and give them every assurance they possibly can they will be in safe hands underwater. the biggest danger they have, by a long way, is panic. if they can just keep cool and calm, they will get out safely. the gear will be good, it will have been vetted by the cave divers, and it will be the best available, very reliable, they will have the best systems they can have. the cave divers of the best there are in the world. everything is good, as long as the boys do not panic. the great danger is them over worrying. there are signs to suggest they are in a good frame of mind to be able to handle this. it is a great tribute

to this football team that they are able to do that. they are fit, young, and not worrying, that is great. i am very optimistic in the next few days, we will get them all out. it depends on the weather, which is critical, but it will not be rushed. whether they can bring more than four out a day, i do not know and clearly that will take another three days, if they can only bring four out. they must not run any of the dangers that could be tempting, like putting more rescue divers in who haven't adequate experience, or trying to bring the boys out without adequate preparation. it is unlikely that will happen, but it depends on the weather. it depends on how quickly

they think this water is going to increase, how much longer it could potentially make the dives out and only people out there can make those decisions, it is not possible back in england to know enough about it. i know this part of the world. i have caved a lot in neighbouring caves to this and i would not go anywhere near these caves in the wet season, which is what it is at the moment. the dry season, the caves are empty and often huge beautiful, in the wet season they are huge flowing rivers that are difficult to navigate and the water levels, quickly, as these kids discovered two weeks ago. the water came up quickly, cut them off and the rest is history. we are now having to rescue them. i want to jump in quickly. everybody is saying the greatest danger is the boys will panic. as the public listening to

this, you get a sense of claustrophobia listening to the descriptions. how are people who go through caving and cave diving, how are you taught to calm somebody down who does have a panic attack? we have not quite had an explanation of that, how do you manage someone who is suddenly hit by a bout of panic? how do you overcome that and keep everybody safe on the team?” how do you overcome that and keep everybody safe on the team? i am a very experienced cave, caving over 50 yea rs, very experienced cave, caving over 50 years, i was president of the world caving association for eight yea rs. world caving association for eight years. i have caved all over the world and see it from a different perspective, from what many others would see it. i believe 50 years ago i possibly did have a slight inkling

towards claustrophobia, but, as an experienced caver, realise it is pointless. i get claustrophobia is christmas shopping. i hate being surrounded by hundreds of people, thatis surrounded by hundreds of people, that is my claustrophobia. caves on my territory and that is where these cave divers are at home. the children are not in the same situation and that is what i say, they have to be persuaded and coaxed into understanding and getting co mforta ble into understanding and getting comfortable in varied environment and underwater in their environment and underwater in their environment and there is evidence to suggest thatis and there is evidence to suggest that is what will happen. if people have serious problems underground, they usually do not go underground. i have taken a lot of people underground, quite a few novices, although i would not say i have taken a huge number of novices underground. if anybody shows a sign

of worrying about it, you bring them out as quickly as you can and they probably never go in a cave again. it isa probably never go in a cave again. it is a lesson learned. there will be lessons learned from this exercise. hopefully, that will be good for reducing the chance of this sort of rescue happening again in the future. andy, former head of the british caving association, thank you very much. thank you. you are watching bbc news. let's take you back to thailand and the reuters correspondent panu wongcha—um spoke to us earlier and described the scene as reports started emerging that two of the boys might have been rescued. it is an undertaking even for an

experienced diver. with the rain coming down, which means over the next few days the water level inside the cave could potentially rise. next few days the water level inside the cave could potentially risem will be interesting to see how the weather in packs the rescue operation and to stress the bbc does not have independent confirmation reconfirming the two boys have been rescued safely. this story has gripped the world. i can only imagine what a charged, emotionally charged situation it is on the ground. certainly, for us covering the story, there has been very little bits of information coming out from the operation, understandably, because of the

complexity, because of the line of communication, which is difficult through the caves, because it involves many departments and government officials. we are talking about a group of 13 international divers as well as the thai navy seals. the operation involves more than these people with countless departments involved in the operation that involves training of the water, drilling, examining the mountain, as faras the water, drilling, examining the mountain, as far as other support, support functions. inside the cave by other rescuers and agencies. it isa by other rescuers and agencies. it is a complex operation and has been well drilled over the past few days, as the head of the operation rescue centre told the media. hopefully there will be happy ending to this story as things develop. that is what we wish for. tell me more about

why authorities changed their mind. they are calling this the right window of opportunity but in the early days we were told it could ta ke early days we were told it could take months. things changed because every rain was forecast over the next few days. thailand is in the middle of monsoon season. they are afraid they will have to battle more water. on that front, the draining operation has achieved success inside the cave and we were told this morning that water levels have been the lowest since the boys had gone missing inside the caves. these two factors combined, as well as the health condition of the boys, the authorities decided this was d—day. water levels are at the lowest book more rain is expected. how might that impact the rescue operation, with many more boys to be found

safely? in the past two weeks we saw in the initial search operation that heavy rain would be followed by a huge amount of water from underground inside the cave. the authorities monitoring the weather pattern said that once it rained, we needed to bring them out before the water rises again because the last time that happened they had to retreat from the cave and it took many days before they could reach back to the position they were when it was drier. this is the key, the whole operation is a battle against the weather and the water. what i am fascinated by is that it is a testing journey even for experienced divers, and the 11 hour round stretch, how will the young boy scout? it is difficult -- how will

the young boys cope? it is difficult to say with the operation and how it proceeds inside the cave but we know there are doctors with the boys, and we are told at least one thai doctor did an initial assessment to choose who is more fit to go through first, based on the press statement released here. this is the process they do. they said they would select they do. they said they would select the fit is first and guide them one by one out of the cave. apart from the elite team of divers they also have other rescuers and divers in other sections of the cave, the less arduous section, guiding them through and out to safety. that was the reuters correspondent speaking earlier. co—ordinating the rescue mission are two british cave diving experts, john volanthen and richard stanton. martyn farr knows the pair and is an expert himself. he said the operation seemed to be going "very well". he spoke to me earlier.

this is absolutely fantastic news. the boys are starting to come out of the cave. that will be a massive morale booster. it obviously is an indicator that things are going very well at this point in time. clearly it is a big ask for everyone involved. we all understand how critical this weather window... well, it is shrinking as we speak, but the right people are doing the right things, and i am optimistic that things will carry on like this. you mentioned the weather. clearly you have some reservations. you have the experience. what are your primary concerns? like everyone else watching the programme, we all know that if you have a torrential downpour, we have seen images of the

current in the cave today. that would be a major problem for everyone if that rainfall intensifies in the very near future. for all of us, in fact, for the world, this has been a crash course in cave diving. we have heard about the treacherous conditions the boys are having to face. for a child to go into the caves, but then for a child to cave dive, what would be your reservations? it is extremely challenging. there is no doubt about that at all. the images we are seeing of the youngsters clearly show them in good morale, in great morale, and yes, i am quite sure that they are taking to this activity remarkably welljudging by

the speed of the evacuation of the first people. john and richard are out there, adding their expertise to the operation. have you heard any news from them? no. i will not say "unfortunately". it would obviously be great to speak with them, but we all appreciate, every friend and family member of the british divers out there will understand they are totally concentrating on the job that has to be done, and they cannot afford any distraction from getting thatjob done. they are the best rescue team that possibly could be pulled up in this instance. i am sure they are going to carry on doing a fantasticjob. we have heard about the training and the practising and the rehearsals that would have taken place. how important is a diving plan

in something like this? i am sure everybody out there has been formulating this plan for many days. clearly the plan is working. how many plans would there be? i am sure there have been quite a number. the weather window, this narrow time slot that we have confronting the team, well, this has precipitated the action as we all know. this emergency, this narrow time slot will have been planned for. everything is going well. when you are down there, obviously communication tactics are important among adults. what sort of things would be used, and what would be used to communicate with the children? well, fortunately, there have been

a number of thai navy seals going to the chamber, and i am quite sure that all along the route there will be thai rescue personnel to help with the communication difficulties should there be communication difficulties. we heard about the possibility of sedation of the boys to calm them down, to avoid the panic which is the greatest danger in a rescue such as this. is sedation really a possibility? what are the risks involved? i am not medically qualified to answer that. i know certainly that some of the personnel on site are doctors, highly experienced doctors, highly experienced cave divers. if that option is

required, i am sure that the equipment, the knowledge, the expertise is there to get this job done. if you are cave diving with an expert, a colleague, that is fair enough. if you're diving with someone who is inexperienced, what sort of advice do you give to them before you enter a system like that, to make sure that the dive continues safely? once they are under the water, they are either going to be, well, it is going to be difficult under the water. you have seen the situation yourself. the visibility will be very low. we all hope that no panic will arise. judging by what we see of the youngsters, i am very optimistic.

they are being particularly brave. yeah, they are a credit to thailand. they are absolutely great young people, and i am confident that they can hold it together. that was cave diving expert martyn farr. earlier i spoke to lt colonel steve whitlock who was part of a 2004 rescue mission in one of the world's biggest cave systems in mexico city. it is good news that we are starting to see people come out of the cave. but it is not over until it is over. you go through a period of seeing success, but the rescue is not over until all of the people are out, including the divers. it is good news that we are starting to see people come through those difficult passages and get out of that cave.

i would caution people to be a little bit careful, because we have still got an awful lot of people that have to come out of that cave, and we're yet to see the remaining members of the team come through. you have been part of a rescue team, as i said earlier. it took place in mexico city. how closely does that event resemble what we're seeing now in thailand? in some ways, it is very similar. we rescued a group of six cavers from a similar situation. the big difference was it was part of a contingency plan. although it was a rescue plan, we were aware the cave was flooded, we had a data—logger in there for three years, and we knew it would flood to the roof. we had a camp set up, we had lines laid, and we had divers on standby

in the uk should that happen. so the difference was we were slightly more prepared because we knew that particular cave flooded. there are so many teams from around the world involved in this. are the right...? i do not want to say that. in terms of cave diving, where do you go first for expertise? the obvious answer was rick stanton. we knew that nearly 1a years ago, and the situation hasn't really changed. there are some really good cave divers around the world, but it is quite a close—knit community. is there a number you can dialfor a cave dive rescue, probably not. it is an interesting thought. but if you are caving at the level that we were in mexico, there were enough members of my team that understood who to ring, and obviously we arranged that beforehand. we are hearing a lot about the diving plan. what is involved in one of those?

obviously you need to know the cave in detail, and rick would have done that when he first moved in to find those members of that team. you need to find out how long you were submerged, how complex that cave system is. we have seen a lot on the news about how tight it was and how difficult it was. that would have been a big part of the plan. can you move people in there? you have got to consider the safety of the rescuer. if you are moving somebody through an environment like that who is not used to it, then it is as dangerous for the rescuer as for the person being rescued. particularly if that person starts to panic, loses the line or gets everybody disorientated. all of that needs to be considered and you need to train for it. we trained on the far side of the sun. i hadn't trained members of the team i had before we went to mexico.

before we dive them through, we trained them in the cave. in water. to make sure that we understood how they reacted before we considered bringing them out using diving. that was stephen whitlock, speaking to me earlier. four of the 12 boys trapped in the flooded cave in thailand have been brought out. initially they were transferred to a field hospital for initially they were transferred to a field hospitalfor medical assessment. we know they have been taken to a district hospital where they are being treated. the latest news from the head of the joint command centre is 90 divers are involved in this operation, 50 of them are foreign and a0 are thai. the operation is on hold. there is a ten hour gap to prepare for the next stage,

which will resume at eight o'clock in the morning local time, that is eight o'clock in the morning in thailand, before the next stage of the operation continues. you are watching bbc news. do stay with us. it is time for the weather. if you think the weather is either too hot 01’ think the weather is either too hot or too dry, we will address one of those briefly this weekend. it will be cooler but warming up again. hot sunshine across england and wales today, but for scotland and northern ireland, more cloud. there have been warm spells around, but under the thicker cloud in the north of scotland, it has been cooler. you may have encountered rain. cloud increasing overnight. there could be drizzle in the north—east of scotla nd could be drizzle in the north—east of scotland and north east of england. cooler in scotland and

northern ireland overnight, butjust as warm and difficult to sleep across much of england and wales. high pressure in control on monday but this week weather front will change the feel of the weather on monday and tuesday, bringing cooler air south. there will be more cloud around on monday, but still some warm spells to be had and most places will be dry. the temperature will feel cooler for many, particularly in the south—east of scotla nd particularly in the south—east of scotland and the north—east of england, maybe 5—10d cooler than the weekend, but the warmth is still there across the south of england, wales and the west midlands, where temperatures reach the upper 20s and nearly 30 celsius. on tuesday, things will become cooler. more cloud in the sky at wimbledon than over the weekend, but there will be sunny spells coming through. it will feel warm in the sunshine with

temperatures near 30 degrees. better for the players on tuesday as temperatures come down. the floor of airaround the high temperatures come down. the floor of air around the high pressure. it is coming from the north—east. the north—east coast will be cooler for a time, before all parts c warmer weather spreading from the south later in the week. if you want cooler weather this week, it does not last long. lots of dry, settled, sunny weather to be had, with high pressure in control. warming up from the south again later in the week. this is bbc news, the headlines at five: officials in thailand say four boys have been rescued from a flooded cave system and have been taken to a local hospital. the boys and their football coach have been trapped in the complex cave system for more than a fortnight and were found by rescue divers earlier this week. a team of 90 divers have helped the boys

through a difficult part of the route. the rescue effort has been suspended until tomorrow. rescue teams in thailand say four out of the 12 boys trapped