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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  July 16, 2018 3:30am-4:01am BST

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where he will meet his russian counterpart, vladimir putin, later on monday. mr trump said he had low expectations of the summit, but hoped it would deliver something good. he also said he'll raise allegations of russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. millions of people in france have been celebrating their team's victory in the football world cup. france defeated croatia 4—2 in the final in moscow. there were scenes ofjubilation in paris, and in towns and cities across the country. it's france's second world cup title in 20 years. britain's prime minister has revealed that donald trump advised her to sue the european union over brexit, rather than negotiate. theresa may was defending her plan for a brexit deal which favours close links with the eu. now on bbc news, it's time for dateline london. hello and welcome to dateline,
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the programme in which some of the uk's most distinguished columnists lock horns with those who write for the folks back home under the dateline london. this weekend — has theresa may's brexit plan been trumped? and after the president practises his golf swing against his fellow nato leaders, will it be a case of straight down the middle with vladimir putin, or will he be heading to the bunker? with me, john fisher burns of the new york times, alexander nekrassov, a russian journalist, the documentary film maker and italian journalist annalissa piras, and the british political commentator adam raphael. overpaid, oversexed and over here, the war time grumble of the british about the gis, us soldiers barracked here. boy, though, did we need them — and the rest of europe. that's still the calculation 70 years on, judging by the way
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in which prime minister theresa may lavished praise on president donald trump, hours after a newspaper interview was published in which he suggested a free trade deal wouldn't happen because her version of brexit would leave the uk bound too closely to the european union after it has left. oh, and by the way, wouldn't boris johnson — he says very good things about me — make a great prime minister? adam raphael, donald trump rowed back on that interview the next day when he was standing next to theresa may. but had the damage already been done? yes, i think so. trump got it right basically. you can't have a free—trade deal with the united states which is consistent with the brexit white paper. so, yeah, it was one of those instances where, frankly, he embarrassed his hosts by saying exactly what the truth was. it's an impossible situation that mrs may now faces because she has got trump on one
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hand, but she has got her party on another and this is bitterly divided on this white paper. we've had two resignations already. there could be more to come. she will have to make further concessions in europe to try and get an agreement and it really will be a form of customs arrangement of some sort. it won't be called a customs union, because that is a no word as far as theresa may is concerned, but it will have to be some form of widespread alignment of all british trading interests with europe and regulations. so the real issue is can she get it through parliament? the votes this autumn in parliament are very uncertain. there is certainly no majority in parliament for a hard brexit. there may not be a majority in parliament for the sort of break mrs may wants.
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if there is not that, then we are in unknown territory, general elections, votes of confidence. no—one can be confident about what is going to happen. there are interesting months and days ahead. on monday, the new british brexit secretary, because the old one resigned over the white paper, goes to brussels to present it to european negotiators. presumably, the rebels will have been emboldened by donald trump's newspaper interview. what on earth possessed him? you know, i think if we try to make coherent the outburst of mr trump, it would drive us all mad. we saw him yesterday making up to mrs may. what possesses him when he gets to up every morning, it is very difficult to say. as adam said, he is not entirely
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wrong about brexit and he is not entirely wrong about so many other issues. his national security adviserjohn bolton, when he was in london weeks ago the pairing for this trip, said something that clearly predated the brexit white paper. theresa may seem to be heading towards some sort of soft deal with the eu in which actually we will remain pretty closely aligned with the eu. we heard about 17.4 million people who have voted for brexit. decades of my life abroad outside of the uk and see how much we stand to lose if we do not protect our nation's
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identity, but we do not hear so much about the 16.1 million people who voted to remain and it seems to me that we have forgotten about this. in democracy, there is the will of the majority but also respect for the majority but also respect for the minority. and theresa may is staring at an extremely difficult course in which she has come up with something which could, just could reconcile a majority within her own party, might even reconcile majority of parliament comedy she does that, it will be famous thing. i have no such optimism. as fortrump, i regard him not as a politician but as a narcissistic salesman with a psychological disorder. it sounds very rude that, but he is bizarre. he is quite rude. he is bizarre. the idea that there is any predictability in how he behaves,
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it is not there. he will wake up in the morning and decide whatever he does decide. the idea that some sort of consistent pattern of behaviour from him, i don't know. i am looking forward to what is going to go on in helsinki. we will talk about that later. so you think the negotiators when they see this white paper will feel this is something they can work with? i think the noises we are hearing from brussels are very clear. this is a good step forward, but still does not respect the fundamental deadlines. that's what michel barnier said. they were going to check the documents against the deadlines. the deadlines have always been the same so there is a certain level of boredom about it, about the four fundamental freedoms. these are red lines for the european union. they're negotiating guidelines by the ministers. in the end, if the politicians want to cut a deal, they can cut through the guidelines. can't they? not really, because the four freedoms are the pillars
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of the european union. britain cannot have its cake and eat it, so they cannot just cross those lines without all the others saying we too want to... you as an italian would know as well as any of us, how fragile and deeply under attack those four freedoms are elsewhere in europe, including in your native country. it seems to me we have a dynamic within europe which could change this picture pretty substantially. for example, on the question of freedom of movement. but freedom of movement is already changing, and i think that the good point about the proposal of theresa may was that they are starting to say that they will find a way to allow eu citizens, but without having freedom of movement. so this is all under negotiations already but the big question mark would be, for the british people i think, is is it worth it?
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because at the end of the day, we end up in a situation which is almost the same as before brexit, but with less power, would it be worth it? theresa may created this mess herself. she should have started with a position of strength towards eu. the eu was horrified by brexit. they were weak. they were expecting a very tough approach to them. so you think she should have taken the donald trump approach? that's what he said. of course. the trump approach was, you give us what we want or we leave. can you imagine if britain walks away from the eu? the eu would have collapsed. that was the point that he made to theresa may. that she should be strong. she decided to be weak. she decided to please everyone. that's why the mess which she created now. i fundamentally disagree with alkexander here,
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because really, theresa may's mistake in british political terms was she laid out a series of red lines which she could not deliver. so she's been in retreat from these red lines ever since the florence speech, and she goes on retreating and she's continuing to retreat. that appears to be disastrous. the reality is that she is in a very difficult position in the sense that she has an impossible party, and she somehow has to reconcile her party. so the idea somehow of trump, or alexander, that she canjust lay down the rules to the eu and they willjust succumb. it is nonsense. she would have destroyed her party and this country because the economic consequences of a total break would be disastrous for this country. exactly. so it is historically inaccurate to what donald trump and alexander are saying. there was a moment when britain
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gesticulated a kind of no deal brexit is brexit, and the answer for the 27 was extraordinary. for once in european history, they were moving as a unique bloc. they said we're not going to be bullied by britain. it was one against 27. so this dream that britain could have been tougher is frankly... bollocks. leaving the language aside. sorry, sorry! it is lost in translation. i'm a foreigner, so. we haven't even mentioned the two cabinet ministers resigned this week. it shows you that how extraordinary this week has been. nato is not an organisation that normally appeals to pacifists. but they ought to admire the way the other leaders of the western alliance pacified donald trump. apart from the expression of alarm which briefly passed over the face of the nato secretary general, jens stoltenberg, as president trump turned a breakfast photo op into an attack on germany
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for its energy dependence on russia and unwillingness to spend more on defence, the leaders took the blows without striking back. next, he'll deploy his charm on vladimir putin at a one—on—one meeting in helsinki. i mean, anneliese, journalists like to say they speak truth unto power, that's really what donald trump was doing. he was pointing out that the europeans had got away with spending not as much as they should on their own defence for a long time. and just relying on uncle sam. no. the point is that every american president has been saying that for a long time, so this was not a kind of new thing. what donald trump was doing was what he does very well. he was doing reality tv drama, stealing the show, diverting attention. so there were a lot of very important issues that the european citizens should have known about. they were on the table and they were crucial for our security, but donald
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trump decided to divert attention from those issues that are very, very complicated and controversial for him, and to put it on a question of money. everyone understands money so he said, i am here to get more money for us, for nato, and the europeans do not want to put the money on the table. actually, that is not the main issue. the main issue here is that nato is 70 years old, is outdated, and the world out there has become much more unstable and volatile, and nato needs to change the way it works. and one of the first points is cyber warfare, new forms of cyber warfare. and the russian meddling in internal politics in other countries is the number one concern, because it is a way of waging war to other countries that does not respect the conventional kind of warfare. none of that made it onto the agenda.
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no, no, fora reason, because donald trump doesn't like to talk about meddling in internal elections because he was elected with strong suspicions of interference from russia. donald trump was addressing his voters, first of all. every time donald trump goes abroad, he addresses his voters first of all. i am just explaining why he said that. secondly, the reason why he went after germany was a very logical and cunning thing to do, because this absurdity which is spoken about trump being elected with the help of the russians, he turned the tables around and said excuse me, you are buying stuff from the russians, you depend on them, so why you two don't talk to me like that? that is the point he was making, and it was a very clever move. i agree with that. there was a lot of discussion about nato and its failures in afghanistan, for example,
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when nato collapsed completely and showed its total incompetence, its total corruption and so on. nato, when you say it has to change, it has to disappear, gradually, because nato should have disappeared when the cold war was over. that was the arrangement... it is the perfect example of why the cold war is not over and if characters like you were a little bit more dispassionate, maybe it wouldn't need to be there. the point was that there was an agreement between the west and soviet union that nato would not move eastwards. that it would gradually succumb. now you are talking about nato basically taking over the whole of europe, moving into asia, worrying china. they are also worried about that.
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nato has become an aggressive bloc so please stop... i lived in moscow in the 1980s, and listening to alexander, it is like being taken back 30 years. you speak like a hardline kremlin ideologue. you should stop giving those labels. you're like an american imperialist, so who cares? what we are discussing is that the west lied to russia. the west is in an aggressive alliance, i mean nato. what we are discussing is why donald trump chose to do what he did just before going to helsinki? the two things that need to be connected is this. everything is interconnected. his principal point was that american presidents have been raising for 40 years. the us cannot be expected
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to go on bearing the 90% of the cost of nato. whether or not he will succeed using the blunt instrument that he did, i don't know, but i go back to my childhood. my father was a senior nato officer. playing golf with him on one of the air bases on which he was responsible... we passed a grassy mound ringed by concentric circles of razor wire behind which were some people wearing uniforms that i didn't recognise. it was my first sighting as a teenager of americans, and my father said to me, these are the people who keep the peace. it was true then, it was true now. it was true then, it's true now. europe has to be confronted about this. he may have been vulgar, brute, but he wasn't completely wrong. i don't disagree with that at all. do you see any credibility in this
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suggestion that he may consider removing some of the troops that are currently based in europe? he might threaten it. i rather doubt whether he will carry it through. as always, you are dealing with a salesman who believes in putting these maximum demands first. not in the hope that he will get them. john is right, europe does need to step up to its own defence. we can't continue just to rely on united states. with a president like that, we would be mad to do so. the fact that germany has been spending way under for many years is wrong. and tom is also right to point it out. germany has a very close relationship with russia over this gas line. of course, i also agree with annalissa, all of these things are interconnected. trump is so vulnerable on russia, because of his links to russia, financial links to his property empire, he all the time is feeling
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he has to safeguard it. he says contradictory things to contradictory people. i find it extraordinary. it is a high—risk visit. goodness knows what he is going to say to the russians. i don't have a clue. it is a very interesting question. what do you think vladimir putin will say to donald trump? what will he be asking for? we are told that they are going to meet without officials. it is going to be man to man on helsinki in monday. well, first of all, it is a proper summit. it is the first time they meet. i don't expect a lot to come out of it. but putin has several issues which he has to raise with him. one of them is ukraine. ukraine, given the western version... russia attacked ukraine... do you mean the sanctions? i am talking about the crisis itself. the western version is that russia invaded the crimea, russia attacked the eastern ukraine and so on. everyone forgets there was a coup,
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an aggressive government... let's not quite go back over the whole. .. this is a very sensitive issue. that is an issue he will be talking about. ten syrias cannot compensate one ukraine for russia. so that is an issue he wants to talk about. in syria, he needs to take the troops out. you need to talk to trump. iran is on the table. nuclear weapons, definitely. proliferation. yes. terrorism, definitely. as for private conversation, which they will have without anyone, even translators, i think they will talk about this stupidity about russia deciding the american elections, which is impossible! we have indictments at the end of the week. i'm sorry, it is a political falsehood.
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i think they will talk about it. trump promised he would raise the issue with putin. he will have to ask him, tell me, did your boys metal or not? —— meddle or not? do you think they are worried in western europe in particular about what donald trump and putin may end up talking about? you bet, indeed they are. everything is interconnected, so we know that trump wants to get the troops out of syria, that there is a possible deal with putin in, kind of, crowning him the foreign power who is deciding everything in syria. he will want a deal on iran because that is what trump is worried about. what is happening here... moscow has a lot of influence in tehran. absolutely. there is the issue of oil. the americans want russia
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to increase their share. there are a lot of deals going on which do not involve the western world. that raises the question whether in real politic terms, whether we should welcome these two engaging with each other, even if we don't like how they choose to carve up parts of the middle east. is it better than war? i don't think that the position that alexander has just presented of a totally innocent kremlin, whether it's the ukraine or syria or so many other issues, or novichok for that matter, is going to be convincing. if mr putin takes that position, i don't see much business to be done. it doesn't matter to donald trump. is it relevant to him? syria has almost been settled because of russian intervention. he has other fish to fry.
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i think trump has to be very careful. whatever trump says abroad, he is aiming at a domestic audience and therefore his real concern now is what is going on with the investigation by robert mueller and his affairs, how closely he is linked to russia, how much russian finance underpins his property empire, what tax evasion he is involved in. he has got to give no ammunition to his critics in the united states by appearing to be close to putin. i ratheragree, ithink there will be an exchange of views, but i very much doubt there will be much of substance because it is too dangerous for him. he has to be very careful not to provoke mr putin. if the russians were deeply involved in the manipulation of the american election in 2016, he has to be very careful not to provoke mr putin into leaks which he... if he does know what happens,
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there could be very damaging leaks which could drive donald trump ever closer. we've mentioned syria, and we have heard that the syrian state flag is now flying again over seraa, the rebel hold out —— deraa, the rebel hold out that has crumbled. what sort of arrangement could russia offered to donald trump that would suit both men over the future of syria? in a sense, russia has achieved what it is wanted in syria, and syria is a united country. and secured its naval base. the bases are not that important, because russia, unlike america, which has bases everywhere, russia is basing its strategy on the nuclear arms. it's not basing its strategy on bases. they are tiny. symbolic. i think what happened there in syria was an unusual combination of iran and russia, america and israel
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cooperating so well that they have managed to avoid a regional war emerging from syria. that is a great achievement, by the way. people forget about that. so i think on syria they are actually moving both in the right direction. i think the challenge for putin is ukraine. it is a very, very serious challenge. basically, it is the main challenge of his presidency. i don't actually see how trump can help him. that is a serious problem, because there is no way forward, it will alienate european partners who have taken such a strong line on ukraine. the minsk agreement is very clear. it is on the table and russia has to accept it. it is useless. it is unfulfilled. president putin is very cunning when it comes to creating new opportunities or new ideas. the idea of some form
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of un peacekeeping force, some form of ceasefire that can be implemented is not rocket science. that could happen. the problem is that donald trump seems to have a very weak hand, both because of the russian interference problem and other things. he wants to get out of syria. he is not a strong president who can push anything through. we will find out on monday whether donald trump can play things as well as vladimir putin when the two men meet at that summit in helsinki. that's it for dateline london for this week — we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. hello.
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the weather turns cooler and fresher as the fresh air move south—east behind the weather system which early on monday has outbreaks of rain in eastern scotland, clearing with sunny spells. northern ireland, sunny spells, scattered showers. england and wales, we follow this area of cloud, may be heavy and thundery weather spreading east as the day goes on. some next to nothing, others have something decent on their garden and another hot day near 30 in east anglia and south—east england, where the sunshine last longest. the odd shower in eastern areas to end the day. once it clears, the cool and fresh air is progressing. temperatures are coming down overnight. it is easier for sleeping. 0n overnight. it is easier for sleeping. on tuesday the fresh feel is here across the uk. plenty of
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sunshine to begin with, some cloud developing, showers breaking out, perhaps heavier ones affecting parts of northern scotland. welcome to bbc news — broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. my name is nkem ifejika. these are our top stories: touching down in helsinki ahead of his summit with president putin, donald trump says there's no formal agenda for the talks. rhapsody in blue. france win the world cup, beating croatia 4—2 in moscow in a thrilling final. crowds fill the centre of paris, as a nation celebrates winning football's biggest trophy for a second time. over the past few years, these streets have been scenes of national division and national grief. now, they're places of utter joy and celebration. violence spreads in nicaragua. government forces raid several towns, leaving at least ten people dead.
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