tv HAR Dtalk BBC News July 20, 2018 12:30am-1:01am BST
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denuclearisation is not unravelling. but kang kyung—wah says any deal to remove nuclear weapons from the korean peninsula will take time. president trump wants to invite russia's leader to washington later this year, but says if things don't work out he'll be "the worst enemy vladimir putin's ever had". and this story is trending on bbc.com burberry has come under intense criticism for destroying unsold goods worth millions of dollars last year. the fashion label took the action to protect its brand and stop goods being stolen or sold cheaply. that's all. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news, hardtalk‘s stephen sackur speaks to riyad mansour — palestinian ambassador to the un. welcome to hardtalk,
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i'm stephen sackur. there have been three costly spasms of violent conflict between israel and hamas in gaza over the last 11 years, and in the past week, a fourth seemed dangerously close. even if the ceasefire holds, the preconditions for more bloodshed are all too evident. the trump administration claim a new us peace plan is in the offing, but no—one is holding their breath. my guest is palestinian ambassador to the un riyad mansour. is there any prospect of change in the grim status quo? ambassador riyad mansour, at un headquarter in new york,
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welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. let me begin with a very grim figure. it now seems 140 palestinians, at least, have been killed by israeli forces during protests that began in march along the gaza—israel border. is it not time now for senior palestinians such as yourself to make a clear call to all palestinians in gaza to stop those protests, in the interests of saving life? well, i think you have a situation where it is in the interests of saving lives that israel should stop killing palestinian civilians, and injuring more than
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15,000 since 30 march. and the international community is on the side of this kind of articulation, because when we went to the security council seeking protection for the civilian population from the israeli attacks and aggression against our civilian population, the great majority of members of the security council endorsed the draft resolution, which was denied by casting one single veto. and then we went to the general assembly, and we have a resolution that was adopted by 120 countries versus eight, calling for providing international protection for the civilian population in the occupied palestinian territory. and the secretary general was asked to submit a report with recommendations and suggestions to provide protection for the civilian population, the palestinian civilian population, including international protection mechanisms, and he has until the 13th of next month to submit that report.
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we are engaging his teams with ideas and suggestions, to fulfil such demand for providing protection for the civilian population under the israeli occupation. i understand that, ambassador. there are clearly diplomatic processes underway, and there is no doubt that human rights groups and governments as well have issued condemnations of the way israel's forces have handled things on the border. it is myjob to examine israeli strategy and policy. but it's also myjob to ask you quite clearly, as i have done once already, is it not time for palestinian officials to tell all of those who gather at the border, including those who go with molotov cocktails, and those who go with the kites and the balloons which carry those
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firebombs over the fence and onto the israeli farmland, is it not time for you to call a halt to all of that? i think that when you have people living in that huge prison in the gaza strip, 2 million of them, for a long period of time, there is a tremendous amount of poverty, a dire situation, and frustration. so when the civilian population decided, from 30 march, to peacefully protest against that miserable, disgusting situation, why is it that, you know, that somebody to suggest for the palestinian civilian population to stop, you know, their civilian activities, peaceful activities, against this occupation? to lift the blockade, and to allow the palestinian civilians to enjoy, in the gaza strip, to enjoy... but in a way my question, ambassador, isn't so much
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political, or about process. it's just about humanity. whatever the situation in terms of israel's open—fire policy on that border, you know and hamas leaders in gaza know that, if people go down to that border, particularly if they go with an intent to throw molotov cocktails or fly their kites, they are going to be targeted. and, in the interests of saving life, is it not time for this to end? i think that it is in the interest of saving lives to do the following. one, for the israeli armed forces not to be trigger—happy, to aim at civilians and to shoot them. secondly, if international presence could get closer to the borders, a un international presence or red cross teams, i think that that would lead to savings civilian lives. it is the right of not only
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the civilian palestinian population, but all civilian populations, in any corner of the globe, have the right to peacefully protest against certain issues that are influencing them in a very negative way. that is also including the palestinian civilian population in the occupied territory, including in the gaza strip. ambassador, things have escalated in the last week or so, as you know. last weekend we saw roughly 200 rockets and mortars fired toward israeli territory from positions inside gaza. 0ne israeli town, sderot, was hit. in return, the israelis used their warplanes to bomb targets across gaza. what is your message to those inside gaza who resume the rocket and mortar fire? well, first of all, i am not so sure
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that this cycle of violence was initiated by the palestinian side. i think it was initiated by the israeli aircraft and their bombardment by their artillery, in which a number of children were killed, at least four, and more than 65 have been injured, through this violence from the israeli side. and i believe that — you know, maybe one or two from the israeli side there were injured in this cycle of violence. from our position, that we declare very repeatedly, we are against the killing of innocent civilians, from any side, and under any conditions. that is why we believe that, if there is an international presence in that area, under the banner of united nations, that will provide protection for our people, and will put an end to any justification from the israeli side
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to unleash its massive military and armed fire against the civilian population. as i say, you know as well as i do that on this programme we challenge and test vigorously israeli officials for what they do. but i do want to focus with you on what is happening inside the palestinian community. one more question about hamas. obviously you represent the palestinian authority as the ambassador at united nations. hamas, not the palestinian authority, is in control in gaza, and the leader of hamas in gaza, yahya sinwar, i think he is styled the prime minister now, he said of the continued protest, we will ultimately take down the border, and we will tear out their hearts from their bodies. of course, he is talking about israelis, israeli citizens. what is your view of language like that? first of all, you know, i am the representative of the state of palestine at united nations. and i represent not only the palestinian national authority,
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i represent all palestinians, in the occupied territory and outside the occupied territory. so you represent them. tell me what your message to yahya sinwar is. i represent all of the palestinian people, including those in the gaza strip, here at united nations. with regard to the statement that you referred to, i did not read it. i am a man of peace. i work under international law. i promote and uphold international law at united nations, in defending the interests of the palestinian people. i do not advocate war. i stand against aggression against all people, including the palestinian people who live under the israeli occupation, including in the gaza strip. it is not so much a question of what you advocate. it's what you are prepared to unilaterally, categorically
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and clearly condemn. will you condemn those words of yahya sinwar that i quoted to you? i condemn all words that harm civilian populations, whomever they are emanating from and whomever they are directed against. you earlier referred to gaza as a prison. you talked about the desperate conditions, humanitarian conditions, that people live in — pretty much 2 million people inside the gaza strip. in that circumstance, why is it that, over recent months, the palestinian authority has been imposing its own financial punishments and sanctions on the people of gaza? i would not use, you know, these words that you are using. we just had a session of the palestine national council, and i am a member of that council, and i was a member of the drafting committee.
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we drafted the resolutions which were adopted unanimously in addressing the issues regarding how people in the gaza strip, including sending the salaries of the employees of the palestinian national authority, and all the steps that were received by approval. well, maybe it slipped your mind, but you know in recent months, after the failure, it seems, of the last reconciliation deal between hamas and fatah, what we have seen is mahmoud abbas, the president of the palestinian authority, impose different punishments on gaza, including halting shipments of medicine, cutting payments for gaza's electricity — all sorts of ways in which the people of gaza are suffering not at the hands of israel, or even egypt, which closes its border crossing with gaza, but at the hands of fellow palestinians. i don't think this is accurate. but if you are saying that there is much more that can be done to help our people
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in gaza, that is true. and the palestinian government, including president mahmoud abbas, is trying with many parties, including the egyptians and united nations, and other parties, to alleviate the situation, the difficult situation, of our people in the gaza strip. i mean, you say you represent all palestinians. have you seen the various protests and demonstrations by palestinians against the policy of the palestinian authority inside gaza? have you also heard another senior palestinian, i am sure a man you know well, mohammad dahlan, who has called the pa government corrupt and fascist for punishing the palestinians of gaza. dahlan says, i can understand the hardships facing the palestinians. i cannot understand that the palestinian leadership is imposing additional burdens on the people of gaza. well, i wouldn't use quotations from the individual that you referred to. he used to be representing the palestinian national authority
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in the gaza strip. if he is referring to his conduct at that time, then i would take note of that, but he cannot speak with authority or respect about the behaviour of the palestinian national authority and the leadership of the palestinian people, whether in the gaza strip or other parts of the occupied palestinian territories. just one more point on gaza, then i want to move to a bigger picture. but, you know, we saw at the end of last year lots of effort and noise and words aimed at reconciliation. i think there has been six different reconciliation efforts to bring palestinian unity, to end the division between gaza and the west bank, between hamas and fatah and the pa. none of it has worked, and right now inside gaza, it is still hamas that holds the weaponry, the guns, the rockets. how long can that continue, and do you have any solution to this division, this crippling division, inside the palestinian community? it is a top priority for us palestinians to have reconciliation and to re—unify our ranks
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and our political system and the geography of the land of the state of palestine. and we are grateful that many who are helping us in this endeavour, especially our brothers in egypt, and it is in the interest of all palestinians to have reconciliation happening today before tomorrow, and i sincerely hope that we can succeed in this fight because it is in the interest of all palestinians to have unity and to accomplish reconciliation. yeah, well, ambassador, frankly, you could have said that at any time over the last, what, decade. it seems there are no new ideas, there's no real dynamic of change inside the palestinian community but let's park that for... my understanding. . . my understanding, according to some statements from palestinian officials and the visits of a high—level delegation from hamas to egypt, that there a new proposals suggested
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by our egyptian brothers and i understand that some perhaps new developments will be revealed and announced perhaps in the next few days or the next few weeks. well, we'll look out for that. in the meantime, as you talk of new developments, there is another development which may or may not come to fruition in the next few weeks, and that is "the grand plan", "the ultimate deal of the century" that donald trump and his team say they are going to put on the table to solve the israel—palestine conflict. jared kushner, his son—in—law, is in charge of it. he said recently, after a trip to the middle, where he saw the israelis, he saw the saudis, he saw the gulf leaders — he did not see any palestinians because you appeared to be absolutely unwilling to talk to the trump team — kushner said this,
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"the palestinian leadership is scared that we will release our peace plan and the palestinian people will actually like it." are you scared? no, we're not. he said this from one side of his mouth and, on the other side of his mouth, especially in closed meetings, he would say to arab leaders and others, please, deliver the palestinians to us, let them engage us in with whatever they have, let them look at it, they don't have to accept everything. so he is in one hand talking tough and the other hand he is begging for us to engage with him. for us, ifjerusalem is off the table, the refugees are off the table, and those who say that they are concerned about our people in the gaza strip, they cut off $300 million from the budget of 0rwah, so how could you be helping the people in the gaza strip by depriving them of this large sum of money that helps 1.2 million palestine refugees in the gaza strip? and also they say settlement now is not objectionable and they do not refer much
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to the occupied palestinian territory, so what is left on the table to talk about? well, here's the interesting question, given that the list you've just given me of reasons why it's absolutely impossible to talk to the americans given the positions they've staked out, my question to you is, why aren't the saudis, the gulf state leadership, the egyptians and thejordanians all very happy to talk to the americans and appear to be involved in trying to figure out how a peace plan might work out? it seems you are dangerously isolated. we are not isolated. they are engaging them for their own reasons, including things related to the role of iran in the region. but let me just tell you that we have made an initiative in the security council in february which was...the essence of it endorsed by our palestine national council, in which we are saying we want a collective process to open a meaningful door for the political process by convening an international conference to include all relevant parties, including the americans, including the europeans,
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the russians, the chinese, the japanese and others. we are interested in opening doors for peace and we believe, since the americans do not qualify any more — they disqualified themselves from being honest brokers — we want a collective process and we are working actively in order to convince as many countries as possible to proceed with this idea of convening an international conference to open doors for peace in the middle east. well, you are a veteran diplomat, you've spent more than a decade representing palestine at the un but, with the greatest of respect to diplomacy and to the europeans, the japanese and others, frankly, there isn't going to be a diplomatic process that is meaningful and can deliver anything without the americans and, given that donald trump has made it pretty plain that he...donald trump intends to run for a second term, we may be facing another six years or whatever it is of donald trump. are you palestinians seriously saying that, as long as donald trump is in the white house, you will not in any way whatsoever
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engage with the americans? i was saying that we will engage with them in a collective process through an international conference. we realise that they are an important force but we do not want them to be the only party that is supervising the negotiations between us and the israelis. we want a collective process, as it happened, you know, in annapolis, through an international conference. and the security council legislated a decision to call for an international conference to be convened in moscow and we sincerely hope that the russians or the french, for that matter, to call for an international conference to involve everyone, including the americans, so that we can open doors for peace.
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let me just also refer who is really... whether we are isolated or not. if you look at the behaviour vis—a—vis jerusalem in the security council and the general assembly, and also with regard to protection, in the security council and the general assembly, who was isolated? was it the palestinian people and their representatives or the americans and the israelis? i think that the voting is very telling about who is isolated and who is not. well, again, you know, that may be a diplomatic point that the palestinian people on the ground, in the west bank, gaza and eastjerusalem will consider but, in the meantime, they have to live their daily lives and it is interesting to look at opinion polls and see that dissatisfaction with the palestinian leadership, with mahmoud abbas, president of the palestinian authority, is rife. more than 60% of palestinians, according to reputable polls conducted by palestinian opinion survey groups, think that mahmoud abbas should resign with immediate effect. he is, of course, gravely ill as well but the problem is there is no obvious successor.
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when are palestinians going to get serious about developing a new generation of leadership? let me just say two things. 0ne, one cannot blame the palestinian people for their frustration. we tried the peaceful negotiation process for more than 20 years, after the oslo agreement, and instead of putting an end to this occupation and enjoying independence, the reality on the ground moved from bad to worst, especially in the field of settlements, so one cannot but understand this frustration and the negative feeling among the palestinian people... sure but, hang on, this is notjust about blaming external circumstances. nasser al-qudwa, a former senior palestinian official — i know you know him — he said, "simply put, we have failed, failed to achieve peace and failed to achieve an independent economy for the palestinian people. " so there is a real sense now that a generation of leaders, and i have to say you are of that generation, have failed.
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well, he is a part of that generation, including myself. it is true that in all complicated situations it is not only a one—way street, it is not only an external factor and also we assume our share of responsibility in that configuration and because of that, we decided in our palestine national council to disassociate ourselves from the occupation and also not to continue on the path that did not lead us to the end of occupation, meaning that the old style of negotiation, acknowledging that we did not succeed in following that path in putting an end to occupation. we are not running away from our responsibility, we are not blaming everything on the outside conditions, we are also...we know our part of our responsibility in leading to that situation. we are almost out of time,
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a very simple question for you — sorry, we're almost out of time — mahmoud abbas has been really quite ill in recent months. he's 82 years old, it is really not clear how much longer either the palestinian people want him to go on or he can go on. why is it that there is no obvious successor? well you see, the palestinian people, you know, are very resilient and we have so many creative individuals and leaders. in the past, when chairman arafat, who was so huge in our struggle, when he passed away, it was not complicated for the palestinian people to agree and to elect president mahmoud abbas to replace him. if after long—life of our president mahmoud abbas that we face the situation to select another leader, i am confident that the palestinian people will be able to select, to elect the appropriate leader to lead us for the ongoing stage. we have to end there.
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ambassador riyadh mansour, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you for receiving me. hello there. we're set to see a little bit of a change to our weather, with rain moving in across northern and western areas. thursday was another fine, dry day. quite warm, plenty of sunshine. we start to see the change taking place in the north—west of the country.
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clouds thickening, outbreaks of rain into the highlands late in the day. during the early hours of friday, that weather front will continue to move south eastwards slowly across the country, bringing some rain, initially to parts of northern ireland and scotland with some heavy bursts of rain, turning quite breezy as well. early on friday, it's going to be a dry one for england and wales, bar the odd shower in the south—east. warm and muggy to start the day. something a bit cooler and fresher in the north with the cloud and rain. this is the picture on friday. a lot more cloud across northern and western areas with outbreaks of rain, some of it quite heavy. the rain will tend to become light and patchier as it pushes further southwards and eastwards. so it will be a cooler day because of more cloud around. the rain, the breeze. temperatures in the mid—to—upper teens. in the south—east, it could be quite warm, 211—25 degrees. now, what we'll see through the afternoon across the south—east is the risk
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of thundery downpours. hit and miss showers starting in a line from the wash into hampshire and then moving eastwards. if you catch one of these downpours, you will know about it. it could give rise to some disruption, perhaps some flash—flooding too. 0nto saturday, we lose the showers across southern areas, and england and wales will have good spells of sunshine. a little patchy cloud in the afternoon, and there'll also be a bit more sunshine across northern and western areas. it will feel a bit warmer across england and wales. 24—27 degrees. the high—teens and low 20s further north. on sunday, a fine—looking day for much england and wales, and more sunshine around, so it's going to be warmer, too. more cloud further north, more of a breeze. the cloud could bring outbreaks of rain to western parts of scotland, where it will be cooler. eastern scotland doing quite well. we could be looking at 26—29 celsius in england and wales. as we head on towards next week we'll see this weather front, a new one, waxing and waning across the north—west corner of the country.
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further south and east, though, we'll be tapping into some very warm and humid air off the near continent, so it's likely we could see temperatures reaching the low 30s in one or two places. so always a little bit cooler and cloudier further north and west, with some fierce heat and humidity in the south and east. i'm mariko 0i in singapore. the headlines: south korea's foreign minister tells newsday she still believes north korea will denuclearise given time, but she's not yet prepared to put all herfaith in kimjong un. trust is a tricky word. we go by action. set for a second summit. donald trump plans to invite vladimir putin to washington, but rejects accusations he's cozying up to russia. getting along with president putin, getting along with russia
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