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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  July 27, 2018 12:30am-1:01am BST

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hello, i'm kasia madera with bbc news. our top story. the former world cricket star, imran khan, is set to be pakistan's new prime minister. in a televised speech to the nation, he said that he willl fight corruption. but his victory claim is being challenged by members of the party of the jailed former prime minister, nawaz sharif. they claim that the election was rigged and they are not conceding defeat. greece says it has "serious indications" that a fire that killed at least 83 people near athens was started deliberately. a government minister said an investigation had been opened. and this story is trending on bbc.com. shares in facebook have plummeted by almost 20%, as trading opened in new york. the company blamed the costs of improving privacy safeguards and monitoring content, coupled with slowing growth. to it. this to the bbc news. —— that is it from me. —— stay with bbc news.
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now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk with media, zeinab badawi. my guess is the united nations human rights commissioner zeid al hussein. in this exclusive interview, he tells us this exclusive interview, he tells us why he is stepping down after just one term in office. —— guest. he was criticised for being too outspoken, especially about trump's america. what has this former jordanian diplomats, who also hails from his country's royal family done to promote human rights globally after four years in the job? zeid al hussein, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. of course, no united nations human
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rights commissioner has served a full second term, but why did you choose to stand down afterjust one term? well, it was clear to me, that had i sought a second term, i would have to somehow win the approval of the agreement of the permanent five members of the security council — that's how it was done the first time i was elected. i was nominated by the secretary general following a series of interviews and then he sounded out the permanent five — the us, russia, china, france and uk — and they approved. i had no doubt that virtually none would approve me for a second term. and i wasn't willing to try, lest i be drawn into having to compromise. this office needs to maintain its independence, the term of a high commissioner should be limited to one five—year or six—year period, and that's it.
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so you think you would have got five straight vetoes — including from the uk and france? possibly. yes. possibly. i have irritated all governments over the course of four years. and i am not sure that they would they would have approved me for... have you not reflected on why that may be the case and that is perhaps — as your critics have said — you have been far too outspoken? i mean, russia has accused you of being irresponsible and hopes that your successor will learn from yourfailures. the chinese have said similar things about you. the united states is no fan of yours. hasn't it made you want to scratch your head and think, have i done something wrong? yeah. no. look zeinab, we work with all governments, we have offices throughout all the world, we extend our desire to establish a sort of technical arrangement where we can help them with their human rights obligations. but let us be absolutely clear — the governments can defend
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themselves, i'm not there to defend them, i'm there to defend their people who are discriminated against, who are deprived of their rights, who are seeing their freedoms disappear at an alarming rate. those are the people that i am here to defend. were you under pressure to moderate your language and tone down the criticisms, perhaps from the secretary general, antonio guterres? at various times it was made clear to us, it is notjust something that i have felt but i think all my predecessors have felt that likewise, that yes, for the rest of the un's system, we can come across as being either too sanctimonious or irritant or disruptive, we don't see it like that. were you asked specifically to tone down your language? in the beginning, yes, i was. it was suggested i could use alternative vocabulary — not to turn it down but less terse and aggressive.
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i still pursued my own way of doing it, irrespective of what was said to me. for example, you called president donald trump dangerous. yes. did you also call him a bigot? we have called him that. we — there are a number of occasions where the president and many others have gone beyond what you expect the head of state of government to say, given the human rights obligations that they are supposed to meet. you know, zeinab, we have to somehow also attach a discussion about comparative values and how the ideological discussions play out in government, from human rights law — which is fixed, which imposes obligations which countries have entered into voluntarily. what we say to them is look, where there are deficits, where you are not abiding by obligations, we will highlight this. the shame is on you.
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we're not... highlighting is one thing, but to use language like that, imean, for example, you've criticised the rise of the populist right in the us and europe as ideological demagogues and political fa ntasists, who share the tactics of isil. was it wise to share, for example, supporters of donald trump with a terror group? no. there are two points addressed. one is that they appeal in their narrative to a return to some former time which wasn't affected by the disruptions of globalisation, by the arrival of migrants from other parts of the world that threatened their way of life, the culture, in that there is a similarity. i've made it very clear that the crimes committed by daesh or isil are so repugnant, so extreme, that we would separate the two dimensions from each other.
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but where there is similarity, again — is the use of half truths to spin a particular narrative, to deceive, to make people think that there is a way out along a particular trajectory, which would bring them salvation. we know... so are you accusing, for example, the american government of doing that? of deceiving people? i was accusing the populists of being charlatans and deceivers — yes, and that's exactly what they are. we're not saying that the conditions which give rise to anxiety and fear — loss ofjobs, loss of opportunities — are not real. those are very real. what we're saying is that the populists play on those fears for self interest and because they know that it generally works. it's worked before in the past in the short term, long—term — disastrous. but look, you're a highly skilled diplomat, you served
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as jordan's ambassador to the united nations, you were instrumental in setting up the international criminal court, you've had experience in international peacekeeping. surely you must know that the role of a diplomat is to engage in a constructive manner? the chinese have said that you are duty bound to work in a constructive manner, with respect for sovereignty, and to avoid public pressure. could you have used that kind of approach, might it not have yielded more? no. one is that i used to be a diplomat, i am not in this position. i am an international civil servant, my mandate is to protect civil rights. my primary constituency are the vulnerable, the victims of human rights abuses. that's how i see my mandate. yes, we work with governments, i'm not saying that our office occupies itself with being loud and terse and beating governments around the head, we don't see ourselves as doing that.
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but i'll give you an example, there was a foreign minister who i needed to reach because we were planning to send a technical team to that country. for almost a year, the foreign minister ignored us completely, i tried repeatedly to speak to them. eventually, we said we're going to go public. the very next day, he was willing to speak. you don't want to say which country that is? no, because we actually see improvements in that country. because you don't want to use the public pressure? so you realise it has its benefits? yes. exactly. now we are in a situation, you may criticisms of the united states about the migration issues and separating families, nicki haley, the ambassador to the un, has accused you of being a hypocrite and ignorant on your attacks on the us, and so the‘ve now withdrawn from the un human rights council, which is not under your mandate, but it is part of the united nations human rights family. so when criticisms are so overt,
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that is what it leads to — disengagement, and that is not helpful, is it? i'm not sure the two are connected. the ostensible reason is — and is probably the real reason as well... why the us withdrew... the demands the un laid out for the reform of the human rights council had not been met and that triggered then, the withdrawal. it coincided with the issue of the separation of families and yes, we did speak out and i said it was unconscionable — and it is unconscionable. and very few countries, if at all, practice that — itjust was a moment in time where the two came together and may have given the appearance that... i will tell you what the us national security adviser john bolton said the reason why the us withdrew was because the council and you, the high commissioner, have fundamentally misdirected and misguided. "they don't advocate human rights, they have actually been used by human rights abusers
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against the united states." it's a remarkable comment. i knowjohn bolton and used to work with him when i was an ambassador. it's really bizarre. we produce reports on countries the world over. we have taken the un into areas where the un had hitherto no light cast in these particular parts of the world. for instance, we produced a report most recently on turkey's succession, remote monitoring exercises, we have done the same on kashmir and venezuela. we look at all countries without privileging any, or discriminating against any. so to say that we are somehow singling out a particular country, many countries say this... it's the council, which as i say, is a body from the general assembly and it's made up of 47 countries, and they're elected on a rotating basis, on a regional basis as well.
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however, it's all part of the un's human rights infrastructure and how they perform, you accept, has an impact on your activities. so when donald trump in september last year says it's an embarrassment that there are countries on the un human rights council that have themselves committed atrocities, that does make it difficult for you to do yourjob, doesn't it? it erodes credibility. do you accept that? let's put it into perspective. there was an argument made that only those with the most pristine human rights records could be on the council. or should be on the council. that doesn't exist. you don't have a country that is meeting, presently, all its human rights obligations. at the other extreme, you have those who have severe human rights violations on their ledger, and they are not on the human rights council. you don't have north korea, you don't have syria. so they are not members. and action has been taken by the membership to prevent them. the vast majority of countries
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have a very varied record, many have seen advances when it comes to the rights of women, the rights of children, ending the use of the death penalty, the advances where the lgbti community are concerned. at the same time though, we see regression in areas related to migration, immigration, treatment of racial and ethnic minorities, and so forth. it's a patchy record for many countries and where you draw the line on who should be on and who should be off. it is a discussion primarily for the governments, as you said, not so much for us. what we insist on... but don't you accept that it does impinge what you do? it does, absolutely. you just mentioned the death penalty now — i wanted to raise it because it has excited a lot of debate
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in the united kingdom, and there have been more than 100 british jihadis stripped of their nationalities, and there are two in particular that the british government said can be tried in the us and if found guilty, they could face the death penalty, held by syrian kurds. would you offer any kind of human rights guidelines on this particular issue? the human rights law, where it stands, creates an exception when it comes to the use of the death penalty in the sense that the international covenant in civil and political rights prevents it. on the other hand, the trend is moving towards the end of its use and that is what we are pushing for. we are pushing for governments that are practising it or who have lapsed back into practising it to basically suspend its use... but if the uk doesn't have the death penalty, these twojihadi brits have... yes. you wouldn't support
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theresa may's government in doing what it says it's going to do? no. we would advocate that if they're vulnerable to the use of the death penalty, we would very much advise against it. there is nojudiciary on this planet that is mista ke—free, that can discharge its judicial functions free of mistake. so long as that is the case — quite aside from the moral arguments that you can bring into this — what happens to the families of those who are executed? the children who suffer for the rest of their lives? those in the administration of the justice system, who are traumatised for years and years — all of those arguments can also be brought in, but ultimately, no, they should not be exposed to the penalty. and of course, another issue which often generates a lot of debate in the united nations is the issue of the israeli—palestinian conflict and that is another issue that the united states criticises the united nations for when it comes to the un human rights
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council, it singles out israel like no other country. out of 300 specific resolutions the council has passed in the last 12 years, 76 deal with israel, 27 with syria and 20 with myanmar. do you accept there is an anti—israel bias in the un, the human rights council and perhaps even your own office? in the council, it is 47 countries that collectively make decisions. i have repeatedly asked for investigations. for instance, in venezuela, they haven't been met by the human rights council. i've asked most recently for an investigation into nicaragua. we've had no response. i've spent three years lobbying for an investigation into yemen. we onlyjust got it. i was asking about anti—israel bias. i'll get to this point. the thing is, we can put forward a request. ultimately, these governments,
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47 governments, have to make the decision themselves. i'll give you an example... but you yourself are being criticised, per example, by the pro—israel watchdog, un natch, which says all the united nations has an anti—israel bias. but it says your tenure is one of almost complete disregard when it comes to fighting anti—semitism. i don't really accept this. look, if we look at what it is that that i have said about anti—semitism or islamophobia, racial discrimination, usually we cover all these issues in the same context. it is the case that anti—semitism is very evident now, notjust in europe but in the arab world, part of a world where i come from, and in other parts of the world and it is toxic and it is very alarming. we can do better, there is no doubt, but i don't accept the fact,
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the suggestion made that somehow i am anti—semitic or my office is or all the experts we deal with human rights are. i find that repugnant. you say it's incumbent on states to maintain human rights with their citizens. what's your response to the recent move by the israeli knesset where a slim majority approved the law that says jews only have the rights to self—determination, downgrading arabic as an official language for the 1.8 million israeli arabs. it is clearly discriminatory, i don't see how else you can describe it. it certainly privileging one part of israeli society over another. there is no other way to describe it. i don't know how one would argue otherwise. looking at your own region, the middle east, but the also obviously the wider muslim world, there have also been criticisms that perhaps you haven't done enough to promote
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freedom of speech when it comes to expressing religious beliefs and we saw one particular incident in your nativejordan where a journalist was shot where he was going to stand trial for blasphemy. have you done enough in this area? we have, in the sense that the problem we have with the way the blasphemy laws are conceived and applied, they are often so ill—defined that they are used for political reasons to silence those who have expressed dissent, as you rightly point out, or political opponents of a government, journalists, bloggers and so forth. we have spoken about this. we have seen vigilantism in pakistan and bangladesh. i've spoken about this publicly in indonesia. we've seen similar manifestations in aceh. i mean, clearly, we can always do more and i can speak more
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forcefully but i think we have done enough in terms of highlighting the problem and asking governments to take the appropriate action. the kashmir report that you published this year, first report on human rights violations in both indian and pakistan—administered kashmir, the indian government very ci’oss about your actions, accusing you of ulterior motives, the deputy permanent representative to the un says the report reflects the clear bias of an official, that's you, acting without any mandate whatsoever, and relied on unverified sources of information. water off a duck‘s back? i don't know how to respond to it. look, it's ridiculous. the claim is ridiculous. let's go back tojuly 2016, when we first had this massive disruption, let's put it this way. i mean, unrest, where the use of pellet guns was in such evidence that the home minister in india had to intervene and to put a stop to this. if you look at the development of this, at the very beginning of the crisis, we said we want access to both sides of the line of control. we demanded and requested it.
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let's say not demanded — unconditional access to both sides. the pakistanis gave us conditional access, which were not in favour of. we did not avail ourselves of it. the indian side did not. now we have all this invective, this emotion and hysteria, that i'm biased, that i'm jihadi, working with is, it's nonsense. most of the sources were indian sources, from indian institutions. 322 footnotes referencing, basically, much of it comes from indian institutions, publicly available material. so, i — it's not argument. edward mortimer, who worked the director of communications for kofi annan, said the international climate now has become nota bly less sta ble when defending human rights. would you agree with that and, if so, why? we are seeing, as i've noted at the beginning of this interview,
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we've seen huge advances over the last 60, 70 years when it comes to women's rights, child's rights, trying to end the practice of torture, enforced disappearances, trying to improved the climate for migrant rights, the rights of persons with disabilities. that is undeniable, that has happened. we are now moving in a different direction. the attack is on the international system as a whole. we have the exiteers, the firsters, the ethnic nationalists, the chauvinistic nationalists, who are trying to create policies on a very narrow agenda. and the vanguard is donald trump? i would say it is the prime minister of hungary, viktor orban. on his own? leading this huge global movement you describe? he said back in march, he said in a public statement, i don't want people of my colour to mix with people
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of another colour, right? clear racism, clear racism. when you look at hungary, a country of almost 10 million people, do you know how many afro—hungarians there are? about 1,300. sure. the population that has now voted in fidesz again, how xenophobic it is? i mean, there's a reality... you are saying that viktor orban is spearheading... not spearheading, but in europe, he is providing an example of what seems to be a workable logic in political terms in terms of securing and maintaing power. his foreign minister, peter szijjarto, rejects your comments which you have just laid out, saying, unworthy of your position and you should resign. i respectfully disagree with the foreign minister.
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finally, what do you think you have done in your time to advance the cause of human rights globally? do you think you've really made a change? what i've been able to do is continue the trajectory that i inherited from my predecessors. that is, give voice, without fear or favour, in support of those most vulnerable. those who need the voice of an office like ours. we simply cannot treat all these disasters as if they were the product of some natural phenomenon. a flood here, force majeure, an earthquake. much of the suffering of people is caused by humans and it's notjust that we need to focus, you as the international media and ourselves, the plight, the grievous suffering of individuals. we need to look at who is causing the suffering and say to them, look, you're not getting a pass. you are not getting a pass. we are going to speak, and we're not going to let you forget this. we have lived through too much trauma in the 20th century to begin to relive it again.
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we believe that there is so much energy out there, there are so many people who believe likewise, we have to mobilise them in the last direction. zeid ra'ad al hussein, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you so much. hello. good morning. for most places the heatwave has reached its peak. what a peak it was. temperatures on thursday above 35 degrees in surrey. 35 on the nose in central london. further north in edinburgh, temperatures of 27 degrees. however, the heat sparks off thunderstorms, some of which will continue on friday. then for the weekend things will feel much fresher. the fresh air lies behind the bands of cloud, atlantic frontal systems heading our way. where we have the clumpy cloud is where we have thunderstorms breaking out on thursday evening. as we start friday morning the temperatures will be pretty high. 16 in belfast and newcastle. 20 in london. still some showers and thunderstorms, particularly eastern areas. things may be dry around the middle of the day and then showers will return later on.
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out west we will see cloud moving across northern ireland, western scotland, fringes of england and wales, patchy rain here. for the far east of the country it is a hot day. 32 in norwich. further west it is cooler and fresher. friday night we could see some really vicious downpours and thunderstorms across eastern england and scotland. could be some travel disruption. this heavy rain could also have some thunder and lightning included. still warm and humid for many. signs of something fresher pushing into the west. that is a sign of what is to come. these frontal systems drift through on saturday. there will be rain around at times on saturday. some sunny spells as well. but as we chase to the north—east we will bring in further showers and we will also bring in some cooler and fresher air. so temperatures on saturday afternoon well down on where they have been, 25 or 26 degrees. quite a breezy day as well.
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sunday is quite windy. this band of rain pushing north and east. this is a very different weekend compared with what we've been used to recently. spells of sunshine into the west later on. look at the wind. much more windy than it has been for some time. those temperatures actually on the low side. 20 in belfast and glasgow. 21 in london. that is your lot. we stick with the fresh feel for the start of the coming week. it looks like there will be some spells of sunshine. then later in the week it looks like it will warm up again. welcome to newsday on the bbc. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. the headlines: former world cricket star imran khan claims victory in pakistan's election, promising the people he'll fight corruption. translation: whatever the ruling elite has been doing in pakistan so far with the taxpayers‘ money, i'm promising you today that i will change all of that. bruised and bewildered. the children who survived
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the devastating laos dam collapse. we have just found this shelter where hundreds of people are now gathered. they want food, water, blankets, medicine, if they need it. talking to people here, they all tell you the same story. they had very little time to escape. i'm kasia madera in london. also in the programme:
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