this is bbc news, the headlines: the italian government has declared a state of emergency in liguria after the motorway bridge collapse that's left 39 people dead. 5 million euros will be freed from central funds following the disaster. rescuers say around 15 vehicles are still under the rubble, but there's little hope of finding more survivors. the former cia director john brennan who's been a vocal critic of the white house, over press freedom has had his security clearance removed by the president. a spokeman for mr trump said mr brennan had used his access to sensitive information to make unfounded allegations against the administration. the imprisoned former president of brazil, luiz inacio lula da silva, has been registered as a candidate for presidential elections in october despite being in prison for corruption. thousands of his supporters gathered outside the supreme electoral court. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i am stephen

sackur. a tiny proportion of muslim women in britain where the burqa or niqab, forms of dress which keep the face partially or fully covered. nonetheless, those women find themselves at the heart of the sometimes bitter argument about religion, values and tolerance in western society. my guest today is a muslim scholar and taj hargey —— in mind, taj hargey, who has long stirred controversy among fellow muslims by condemning the burqa and calling for a new progressive and gender equal in light of islam. will his ideas ever gain traction in the muslim community? taj hargey, welcome to hardtalk.

pleasure to be here. let's start with some definitions. you spent much of a life in south africa and have found it to mosques, one in cape town, south africa and one in oxford in the uk. you are a student of islam. but how would you describe yourself? i would say i am an enlightened progressive liberal muslim that sticks to the koran and doesn't allow secondary sources that are suspect to determine my manifestation of faith. i feel the koran is enough, its has repeatedly the book is complete and detailed,

god has not left out anything, he doesn't make mistakes or one out of words to the 6236 verses should be enough for muslims was the —— because the creator says that and human manufactured sources like the hadith, the sharia, which is mentally —— which is a mediaeval concoction and the fight against salman rushdie and others, none of those are clear as far as i'm concerned. those people, that followed these other secondary sources, they should more accurately be described as mohammedans because they put far more message —— far more emphasis on the messenger than the message. you can describe yourself as a cleric or an imam. an

imam cleric has a bad reputation in the muslim world. a scholar, an academic, an intellectual. do you speak arabic? yes, i studied for many years in each it and it's not just a matter of learning the language and the theology and the culture of the faith, knowing the source of the religion. when you say you studied in each it, perhaps the greatest seat of islamic learning in the world. i wanted to go study there. they rest on their laurels of past accomplishments. it is no longer in the top 1000 universities in the world. the reason i'm picking on this is because you will be aware, there are significant numbers of people in the muslim community in the uk but become familiar with your thoughts and words to question your very credibility. doctor ramsey, based like you at the oxford centre,

saying that taj hargey, you have refuted this, he is an imam but not a real islamic scholar. nobody takes seriously in oxford or elsewhere. my message is quite clear. let's get back to originally what islam is about, and that is the way to live in the west. if you are going to live in the west as an integrated citizen, you can't live under hadith, sharia and fatwas. it is all manufactured by men. not women. these texts have a jaundiced view of islam. this is your concept, you are looking to set up a think—tank. islam. this is your concept, you are looking to set up a think-tank. we are launching in october. here is what you say about it. people will be fascinated. you say, we need to

create an indigenous british islam which is integrated into its own environment. in a way, you strike me as somebody who is calling for something akin to the 16th century reformation in the christian religion where martin luther and others in the end broke away from rome and from the catholic church but in essence, you can't have a reformation in islam because there is no rome, and there is no pope, there is no central authority. how can you have this sort of reformation? we have orthodoxy and traditional is which doesn't provide a nswe rs traditional is which doesn't provide a nswers for traditional is which doesn't provide answers for today. we need to have answers for today. we need to have an islam reinterpreted from the koran that answers the problems and questions of today. we can't rely on the views and opinions of people 500, 1000 the views and opinions of people 500,1000 years ago. the views and opinions of people 500, 1000 years ago. you think all that learning is irrelevant? no, but we need something that early muslims had during the first hundred years 01’ so

had during the first hundred years or so after, we had the freethinker is emerging, the rationalists of the day, pre—eminent freethinkers of the day, pre—eminent freethinkers of the day and we need a little bit of that. less following blindly. it is fine about freethinkers and the analogy with martin luther and the reformation, what he had was a groundswell of opinion on his side. particularly in northern europe. there were a lot of people deeply frustrated with the orthodoxies of the time. where is the ground swell of support? i think what you need to understand, no movement, including the loofah movement, started with a majority of 5 million, 10 million, 20 million. let me... really, really agree with you in and was in community in britain today but that of 10%. 1096, about 400,000, community in britain today but that of 1096. 1096, about 400,000, 500,000 people. why haven't they put their heads above the parapet? the 90% are

threatening and intimidating them. the 90% are saying they are heretics. this is where we get this long—running confrontation, this ideological— theological war that you seem to have declared upon the muslim establishment both in britain and the wider world. if you don't mind me saying, you seemed to relish all—out permanent confrontation. mind me saying, you seemed to relish all—out permanent confrontationlj fought all—out permanent confrontation.” fought during apartheid. i believe when there is injustice, you fight it. i fought political injustice and 110w it. i fought political injustice and now it's time to fight religious injustice and the religious clergy, the orthodoxy and the establishment are saying, the mosques are for men only and women are not welcome, that isa only and women are not welcome, that is a direct contradiction of the koran chapter 62 burst nine. when it says it is fine too stoned to death people for adultery and apostasy and homosexuality, they can't quote you from the koran. they quote secondary

sources. eu are, the champion of openness and tolerance within the bosom religion but when it comes to specifics, and that skip to the issue of the day in the uk, it was raised by boris johnson, issue of the day in the uk, it was raised by borisjohnson, there has been a big topic of conversation, and that is the place of the burqa 01’ more and that is the place of the burqa or more accurately, the niqab, as clothing for women and whether it's a cce pta ble clothing for women and whether it's acceptable in the uk, you, farfrom being opened and —— open and tolerant, say things like this. he described them as hideous tribal ninja - described them as hideous tribal ninja — like garments, fundamentally pre— islamic might therefore un—muslim. where is the tolerance in the phrase hideous, tribal, ninja garments? if these people say they are doing it for their own personal reasons, free choice, and never used one word of religion, say this is to

do with islam, the koran, their spiritual journey do with islam, the koran, their spiritualjourney and do with islam, the koran, their spiritual journey and religious requirement, i will be the first one to say they have that right... surely they can say it brings them closer to god? surely they can say it brings them closer to god ? who surely they can say it brings them closer to god? who are you to say? the koran is clear, they say do not make something haram that is halal. they are inventing things. they are saying facial coverings is part of islam. when they say that, that is a lie. repeating a lie and in the night, does not make it the truth. —— and infinitum. what about the women who wrote to borisjohnson protesting his remarks. you refer to the macabre mark and the covering of the macabre mark and the covering of the face for few women in the uk, as looking like letterboxes. —— niqab.

comparing them at 1.2 armed robbers. 100 women wrote and said, we are women who wear the niqab and speak as free women who are able to speak for ourselves and make our own choices and we request that all personal choices be respected. and you won't respect that? what they have done is shift the goalposts, they always do it. when they are defeated theologically, there is nothing in the koran, and you in your listeners need to be aware that no woman going to matter is allowed to wear a face mask. that is refuted as well. one source says he has been to mecca and has seen women wearing it. he is an unelected politician. if one of two women are covering

theirface? if one of two women are covering their face? that's fine. if one of two women are covering theirface? that's fine. you're not supposed to cover yourself. you don't even rely on the hadith. you can't have your cake and eat it. i'm talking about the koran. this get back to the women. theologically, they are defeated and then they talk about civil rights. the european court of human rights and the national declaration of human rights and the un, facial masking is not pa rt and the un, facial masking is not part of human rights. individual choice. i have no issue if they are saying it's an choice but to strip it out of religious connotations. now they are saying it is free individual choice. that is the issue. you use, it seems to be, dehumanising language when it comes to this issue of the burqa. not only dehumanising language, going back a few years, seven years, you held a demonstration in oxford, where your

mosque is, learning these garments. i tribal rights that has nothing to do... tribal rag? tribal raga that has nothing to do with islam. the language you use is dangerous. has nothing to do with islam. the language you use is dangerousm may be uncomfortable for some people. think about the phrases you are throwing into the public debate and the impact they have... it's got nothing to do with islam and if you need some harsh language, i will use it. we should stop pussyfooting about this and give it some sort of islamic credence. it may have a tribal credence, it may have an ethnic or cultural credence but it has no islamic credence. because you area muslim, has no islamic credence. because you are a muslim, did think that gives you a right to use language which, if it were used by a non— muslim in this contest —— context, of discussing the place of particular garments or indeed muslim symbols in

british society, if it were used by non— muslims, it would be described -- it non— muslims, it would be described —— it would be described by the equality commission as inflammatory and divisive. that is the phrase that commission has used before. why are we now censoring people's language? either we have three speech and the right to offend. the bbc, there is a statue of george orwell and he says something like, it to mean anything, it must mean the right to say things that people don't want to hear. with freedoms comes responsibility. is it responsible to use this language? since borisjohnson's remarks on the whole heated debate about the burqa in the uk, we have seen, according to an organisation which monitors islam phobia in the uk, we have seen a significant rise in the number of incidents and attacks directed at muslim women in the uk wearing

burqa, niqab. an organisation that doesn't have much credibility. islamaphobia is real, these statistics on the rise of islamophobic incidents in the uk. let go back to my point, islamaphobia is a round term, it isn't a phobia against islam. it's a resentment of muslim behaviour. for example, i arrived resentment of muslim behaviour. for example, iarrived in resentment of muslim behaviour. for example, i arrived in this country asa example, i arrived in this country as a young student many years ago. there was no such thing as islamaphobia and muslim bigotry, this has arisen in the last 20 or 30 yea rs this has arisen in the last 20 or 30 years when muslims are demanding exceptionalism. for example, you are the great defender of liberal rights and other people here. here we have and other people here. here we have a double role here. a man cannot walk down the street masked, but somehow a woman can in the united kingdom. to be clear... let's turn the temperature down a little bit, let's try and work through these issues one by one. you saying to me therefore given your logic you want a complete ban

on the niqab in the uk? all facial masking for everyone. otherwise we should all be able to have the right to mask ourface. for example, if i wa nt to to mask ourface. for example, if i want to go to my bank tomorrow in a face mark then i should be allowed. if i'm not going to be allowed that, then we have inequality. why are we justifying social inequality? is a new kind of muslim, seeking out a new kind of muslim, seeking out a new form of your religion, liberal, open, progressive, tolerant, yet one of the first things you want to do isissue of the first things you want to do is issue a national ban, a new law banning clothing? france has done it, belgium has done it, denmark has done it, austria has done it. amnesty international and a host of other human rights groups... and the world hasn't collapsed there. other human rights groups... and the world hasn't collapsed therem hasn't but it's a question of the kind of society you want to live in. you talk about openness and tolerance? only for people that

disagree with you? you sound like a fundamentalist. you might say that. your view of what the koran allows and disallows is the only view accepted? if you say a protestant following the bible, you have to provide evidence from the bible. if you're a muslim you have to provide evidence from the koran. where is the evidence in the koran that facemask in is tolerated and encouraged by the koran? it's not a question of whether it is specifically permitted, you are implying it is ruled out of order by the koran and i don't know where that verse is either. i'm not saying that, i'm saying these people are defending the burqa, defending facial masking on the basis of religion, they are lying. let is move religion, they are lying. let is m ove o nto religion, they are lying. let is move onto a different aspect of the language you use and i talked about the notion of responsibility coming with the freedom of expression.

you've used a phrase, fifth columnist. you've talked about muslims in this country who you say useissues muslims in this country who you say use issues like the burqa to go much further. you say their fifth columnists who will only be satisfied when they've brought this country into a full form of sharia law. are you serious about that? this is our long—term objective. fifth columnist. you know that phrase very well? of course i do, general franco and all staff of that nature. that may explain, people like anjem choudary and these radical extremists, they are that, they are talking specifically of the islamic republic... forgive me, that's not the point you were making, you were making a point about the muslim council for britain and other mainstream organisations which have been very angry about the comments of boris johnson which have been very angry about the comments of borisjohnson and others and you say, oh, all of those people who enter this debate on the side of defending the freedom of women to wear the burqa are in essence this

columnists. i put it to you that's the kind of language we normally hear from the kind of language we normally hearfrom far the kind of language we normally hear from far right extremist organisations. you misrepresenting me, mrsacca. organisations. you misrepresenting me, mr sacca. when i'm talking about the fifth column, i'm not talking about muslim organisations, i'm talking about the fringe element who will not be contending with this and their long—term aim is this. whether they will achieve that, i'm very doubtful. i've mentioned the fact that if for some weird reason, god forbid, this country becomes an islamic republic of britain, i don't wa nt to islamic republic of britain, i don't want to be part of it. i do not want to live under any type of sharia law, here there or anywhere. there are groups around europe to talk about muslims being potentialfifth columnists, they tend to be from the far right from parties in eastern europe, germany, france, who will identify as being against the muslim religion. for example, the afp seniorfigure alexander religion. for example, the afp senior figure alexander garland, he

said the muslim religion" does not belong in germany, its political doctrine is not compatible with that ofa doctrine is not compatible with that of a free country". your language sounds like his. if you listen from the beginning, i'm talking about islam based on the koran. he and the far right will have no issues with that. we're talking about a manifestation of islam based on culture, secondary sources that are perverted and deformed. for example, what are the salad is islam, is that an authentic version of the koran? it is dangerous anywhere, notjust in the middle east as well as here. i don't care what's happening in the united kingdom, which is my home. i'd want to see this poisonous toxic islam taking hold that i don't want. can i. >> for a second? you have set up can i. >> for a second? you have set up two mosques, one in cape town and one in london? —— can i stop you for

a second. and men and women don't pray together. they are into rows, write to the front, there's no partition, they're not in the back, there's an invisible aisle at the beginning —— they are into rose, right to the front. —— in two rose. regarding people's sexual orientation or other liberties, we don't care. child benefits, whatever, we don't care. my point is we began with people discussing the number of people you've reached out to that are now in your movement, and the numbers are quite small... they are growing. i would imagine you would like those numbers to grow. they are growing. do you think it helps your cause, your reach out, if one can say the broad majority of muslims in britain today, the

mainstream is of muslims in britain today, when you use the language of tribal rags for the burqa, for example, when you talk about fifth columnist. do you think this approach to this very important issueis approach to this very important issue is going to bring british muslim youth onto your site?” mentioned the figures before, 90% are with the orthodoxy. are you genuinely trying to persuade them of your arguments or are you just looking for a fight? no, 1096, that's my target. we're talking about 400,000 to 500,000 people, that's the target. these are people who are fed up with cultural islam, fed up with muller islam, fed up of saudi version of islam. the saudis are bringing in money, mullahs, mosques and madras is and through those institutions and means they've imposed on their perverted version of islam onto us. they want to go

back to the original islam.” understand what you're against, want to seek out how you best pursue your own vision. a final thought, i'd been thinking about different muslim communities and cultures around the world, billions of muslim people. —— i've been. let's take one example, indonesia. i'm glad you've got to that. let's end with that. in indonesia, want to quote the general secretary of one of the main muslim organisations. he says we have achieved a de facto consensus in indonesia that the islamic teachings must be contextualised to reflect the ever—changing circumstances of ourtime and the ever—changing circumstances of our time and place. but he does not go for this confrontational anti—war heartbeat, and the saudi line that you go for. he's not in the business of confrontation and warfare, he's in the business of evolution and drawing people in. why are you not? luther wasn't threatening a deal with the pope. you started with

that, i didn't make that comparison, you did. he didn't make a deal with the pope. when you see injustice in the pope. when you see injustice in the society, in islam. female repression, child custody, instant divorce, women not in the mosques, all of these things, where does that come from? indonesia, i'm glad you raised that, indonesia is the largest muslim country today, how did the cumbersome in a span of 300 yea rs ? did the cumbersome in a span of 300 years? very short historical span. when the early muslims and the mis—hits arrived they integrated, adapted and adjusted to that society and instead of foisting the culture from arabia, they married a local food, and the first mosques were like temples. that's integrated islam that we need to have here. taj hargey, we could talk plenty more on this but we have to end. thank you very much or being on hardtalk. thank you. thank you very much. —— thank you very much there

being none hardtalk. hello there. we're looking at quite a changeable spell of weather, really, over the next few days, with some rain around. we'll certainly get some rain as we go on through the next 24 hours. the satellite picture shows a band of cloud pushing in across the united kingdom for today, and this is rain—bearing cloud. now, we have seen three bands of rain that will tend to merge together into one as it moves its way in across england and wales as we go on through the next few hours. so there is some rain on the way for some of us. if you're out early a bit in the morning, a lot of cloud for england and wales, with bursts of heavy rain swinging across western england, wales, and on towards the midlands and central, southern england. add to that a lot of cloud and it will feel humid for these areas. a fresher feel to the weather

in the north—west, but a lot of cloud and widespread frequent heavy thundery showers working in here as we go through thursday morning. so, the forecast through thursday. we've got our band of rain that will begin to spread into east anglia and south—east england. as it pushes that bit further eastwards, it will tend to weaken at times, the rain becomes a little bit lighter as it swings into kent. further north and west, a cloudy morning coming up for scotland and northern ireland, with widespread heavy and at times thundery showers. it will be quite a breezy kind of day as well. there'll be some sunny spells between those showers as we head through the afternoon, with the showers becoming less widespread in northern ireland later in the day, and probably a bit more sunshine too for wales and south—west england later in the day too. for friday's chart, we've got another area of low pressure steaming in off the atlantic. this one's going to be bringing a belt of heavy rain into northern ireland,

although there'll also be some rain for western scotland. after a dry and sunny start to the day on friday across eastern counties of england, well, it'll cloud over, but it should stay dry. it will be quite a gusty kind of day, though, with gusts up to 30—odd mph in the north—west of the country, along with that band of rain. now, temperature—wise, we're looking at highs of around 16—18 degrees across the north and west, but temperatures near average. in london, highs of 23. now, looking ahead to the weekend, we have got some wet weather on the way. it's going to be quite breezy, the driest weather towards the south—east of england, particularly on saturday. but this area of low pressure has the remains of sub—tropical storm ernesto, and that's going to be bringing a belt of heavy rain that's probably going to be working in more really across northern ireland and scotland through sunday. so, in a bit more detail, across northern parts of the uk, scotland and northern ireland are likely to pick up a belt of very heavy rain on sunday. further south, meanwhile, we'll probably have drier conditions on saturday, but still the threat of rather cloudy skies on sunday, with some patchy bits and pieces of rain, especially in the west. that's your latest weather. bye for now. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe.

my name is mike embley. our top stories: 39 people are known to have died after the bridge collapse in italy. hopes fade of finding any more people alive. some have a lucky escape. people were running, screaming in italian, "run, out!" "out, cars, out, cars!" "cars!" so we just literally... "kids, run, run," because we didn't know what was happening. he's been an outspoken critic of the white house — now president trump strips security clearance from former cia director john brennan. what is the story behind the killing of the half brother of north korea's leader? two women charged with the murder will find out very soon if their trial will go on. and a new era in tinseltown — crazy rich asians, the first hollywood movie in a genertion to be led by an all—asian cast.