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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  August 20, 2018 12:30am-1:01am BST

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i'm babita sharma with bbc news. our top story. rescue teams are urgently trying to reach people cut off by floods in kerala state in southern indian. thousands of people have been trapped on roofs or in their homes for days. more heavy rainfall is still expected in many districts. more than 350 people have died so far, 300,000 people are homeless. afg hanistan‘s president ashraf ghani has declared a 3—month ceasefire, but it will only go ahead if the taliban agree to abide by it too. and this video is trending on bbc.com: ice cream that has been moulded into the shape of puppies is being sold at a restaurant in taiwan. it takes around five hours to make each ice cream pup. they're available in a variety of flavours. that's all. stay with bbc world news. as you'll know, kofi annan, the first black african to become un secretary—general died a few days ago. in an event to mark his eightieth birthday, hardtalk‘s zeinab badawi spoke to him in front of an audience in geneva in april of this year.
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welcome to hardtalk. i'm zeinab badawi. we are in geneva, the headquarters of the kofi annan foundation which marks its 10th anniversary this year. my guest in this exclusive and rare tv interview is kofi annan. in a career spanning six decades at the united nations, he has held several senior positions including two terms as secretary general until 2006. there were high points like the award of the nobel peace prize but also tragic events like the genocide in rwanda and the srebenica massacre of bosnian muslims. after the un, kofi annan remained deeply involved in world affairs, both with his foundation and as a member of the elders, a group of former world leaders who act as troubleshooters in global hotspots. as he celebrates his 80th birthday
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we talked to him before an invited audience and ask about his biggest worries today and does he have any regrets? kofi annan, at the graduate institute in geneva, welcome to hardtalk. i am happy to be here with you. you have had a very busy retirement since you left the united nations. do you think that the world is a more troubled place today than it was when you left the un? first of all, i have discovered that retirement is hard work. laughter but you need to keep at it. i think that i went through difficult moments at the un. you referred to some of them, including the iraq war.
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but the world is particularly messy today. when we look at what is happening in the middle east, what is happening in some parts of africa, some parts of asia and, also, the fact that i do not see strong leaders around who could cope with this. so you don't think there are strong leaders in the world today? we have donald trump in the white house... laughter ..and he is making very strong and robust statements about syria now, for instance, saying that the suspected chemical attack in douma that we have seen recently that killed dozens of people including children, needs a robust response. different people have different definitions of leadership. laughter and applause i believe that leadership is not about the individual. when you have macho leaders who believe they have to shine and it all has to be about them,
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forgetting that what is interest, what is required is a welfare of society and the people they serve. are you referring to donald trump? when you look at what has happened in syria, so many people were appalled by that attack and the one last year. and he referred to the president of syria as a "gas killing animal" and he has that we need a response. to "get ready for nice, new, smart missiles in syria". i do not approve of that. i do not approve of that and i like the secretary general‘s position. antonio guterres? yes. he said what is required is unfettered investigation to determine who was responsible, hold them to account and ensure that impunity is not allowed to stand. and we, the elders, we issued a statement which i, as chairman share quite a lot.
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that what we need are cool heads and soberjudgement. we cannot allow situations where leaders threaten war on television or on twitter. do we base ourselves on fact or speed? we have seen this before. we had investigations in iraq which were not allowed to reach a decisive conclusion. we were told that were weapons of mass destruction but now we know the story. the main thing is we need a strategic view. military action alone, is that the solution? would there have to be a better strategy apart from that of also getting the council and everyone to come together to resolve this crisis once and for all? i think it is much more important to push them to work together, the west and the east, international groups, regional powers and the syrians to find a solution.
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you were a special envoy to syria in 2012 for both the united nations and the arab league and you try to come up with a plan, a political process, humanitarian help and so on and you gave up. you resigned. that's correct. because it is a tough thing to do, to try and get a workable strategy. i had hoped that my resignation would have sent a powerful message to the council that you have to work together and speak with one voice. but it did not and the situation got worse and worse. 12 million displaced, 500,000 dead. 0bjectively it is much worse now than in 2012. i think in 2012 the ball was dropped after the geneva communique which was not followed out properly when they went back to new york. you think you were duped in that role? did you realise it was a front
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at the time that you may have been used as a diplomatic facade? i would not say it was a front but i say that i lost my troops on the way to damascus. i told the council that this was an impossible task but we can make a difference if we work together and you stay united. at the early stages they did stay united and they came up with joint statements and all of that. eventually it fell apart. i realised that i was, perhaps, much more serious about peace in syria than they were. the syrian conflict has shown, of course, that it is a rivalry between the united states and russia, they are both backing different partners, russia of course supporting assad. but now relations between the two are at their lowest ebb. some commentators say it is possibly the worst since the cold war. are you worried that this rivalry between moscow and washington could escalate now?
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i am concerned. i am worried. i think they have to find a way of engaging in a calm way and, preferably, behind—the—scenes. the sort of language that is being thrown around, coming from leaders is really unimaginable. i mean, it is interesting to hear people in your profession, journalists, saying that we are trying to make sense from all this noise. they are not talking about noise from the streets. they are talking about noise from governmental headquarters, from the offices of presidents. this is unusual. and, in a way, some of the things that we are witnessing today, if they had happened in a third world country, using that sort of language, in the days of idi amin, the lectures we would have received... what sort of language? mike pompeo, set to become the next secretary of state,
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has said the use of soft us policy towards russia is now over and russia is a danger to our country. is that what you are referring to? yes. that's what i'm referring to. and from moscow? similar rhetoric? yes. and these are macho leaders. they should find a way of communicating. i am not sure that at the end of the day the people they are trying to impress are actually impressed by this sort of language. people want leadership. they want to be led in the proper direction. they want vision and so for leaders to think that you have to flex your muscles to show that you are powerful and a leader isn't helpful. applause so that is the united... i assume you are talking about donald trump? he has a special language for diplomacy. laughter but what about russia, which, of course, is attracting criticism
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for supporting assad. do you see russia as a danger? honestly, i believe that there are so many proxy wars going on in syria that some of the fighting going on has nothing to do with the syrians. so we should be careful not to point fingers on the russians. there are quite a few other players in the theatre. so we are talking about syria. 12 million people displaced or are refugees. if you look at the drc, the democratic republic of the congo, a similar number of people displaced, terrible violence, particularly in the kivu region and, you know, it has not gotten as much attention as syria. new shouldn't you, as, arguably, the best known african and the most widely admired african currently in the world, shouldn't you speak
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about the drc every of the week? what has happened in the drc is quite tragic. attempts have been made to get the government to co—operate. there are so many envoys operating in congo today i'm not even sure i could list them all. situations like congo indicate the limit to international pressure and international influence. we need to find a way of strengthening the local population and local civil society to take on the fight and to work with them. you said there were many envoys there but there are 16,000 un stabilisation forces in the drc, a country the size of western europe. really, they are not going to be able to be very effective. the head of the norwegian refugee council said that the drc was one of the worst crises on earth and yet no—one seems to care about it. is he right? why do you think it does not count.
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is because they are african? that could be a part of it. and also the fact that it is a crisis that has gone on for a long time. the first un presence in the congo dates back to 1960 and we have been there almost continuously until now. there is a bit of fatigue and a real leadership crisis in the congo. i said that you are arguably the best known african today and you were the first black african to become head of the united nations. when you were at the un for a career that went for over six decades, you were head of un peacekeeping operations. but i put it to you that in your time, the un charter‘s aim was not met, particularly pertaining to rwanda. we saw the genocide happening there, when you were head of un peacekeeping operations.
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the charter‘s aim is to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war. it failed the people of rwanda, didn't it? you could argue that we failed the people of uganda, sorry, rwanda, and we failed the people of bosnia, you mentioned earlier. i think what is important here when we talk of the un, we have to be very clear. which un are we talking about? there are two uns in myjudgement. there is the un that is made up of the member states who sit in the security council, who are the p5, who sit in the general assembly. they have a secretariat and the secretary general, there are mandates and commensurate resources to carry out their mandate. and then there is the un under the secretary general which implements the programme.
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in rwanda, it was extremely difficult to get the member states to move. firstly, rwanda came soon after somalia when the american planes had been shot down and the us withdrew and the western countries withdrew along with them. it was at about the same time that rwanda, which at that point, people had thought was doing well, fell apart. and no—one wanted to send troops in, even when we said increased the troops that were there. when you do become aware, i must ask you, there are numerous warnings from people on the ground in rwanda. you must have received at least ten warnings. for example, general romeo dallaire, head of the un peacekeeping mission in rwanda, in november 1993 alerted you to the possibility of what might happen and, yet, you have no response. first of all, he is a good friend and a very good officer.
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romeo dallaire, when he sent that message to my military adviser, indicated that it was also possible that it is a trap. that they could walk into a trap. not only that, soon after that, ten belgian soldiers were also killed. the member states were not ready to send in troops. and in this situation, when he said that the un failed, which un are you talking about? i'm asking you really, because injanuary, you received a cable from general romeo dallaire, who said he wanted approval to use force against what he described as crimes against humanity. also jacques—roger booh—booh, the un special envoy to wonder, also said that he was... "in view of rwanda's long and tragic history of ethnic conflict the possibility of ethnically motivated incidents is a constant threat."
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there were these things that were coming to you, january, february, and how did you respond? because they say they didn't get the reaction they wanted. he did, he was on the line with our military adviser all the time and also... and you? he came to new york to talk to me. we brought him back for consultation. but what's important, what he should hear, is not everything that comes from the field that you jump on immediately... first of all, with 250 soldiers, 2,500 soldiers, even if you used half of them to try to stop this, they would have been slaughtered the way the americans were... that's not what he told us. he told hardtalk in 2002, general dallaire, he said he could have stopped the genocide with 5,000 peacekeepers, they tied my hands
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because they were gunshy. but he didn't have 5,000 soldiers. he had 2,500. the first attack just to kill ten of 15, the member states have wanted to withdraw their troops the way the americans withdrew in somalia. did you not say in january the 10th in a cable to dallaire and booh—booh, "we must handle the situation with caution and no other reconnaissance or action should be taken until there is clear guidance from headquarters." it seems like you were almost suggesting they were exaggerating what might be going on on the ground? but even if they were not exaggerating you needed to think through the implications of the action they were contemplating. it was evident that they did not have the resources to take on the challenge they were confronted with. i mean, you talked about 18,000 un troops in congo...
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16,000. ..a drop in the bucket. and often the un has made those mistakes in the past. we put in these small numbers of soldiers who are not always well equipped. they are too big to hide and they're too small to make a difference, and that is a terrible sort of awkward situation. but how did you feel once you realised 800,000 people were killed. all of us who worked in that period were really shattered by the experience and that's why i pushed for the approval of responsibility to protect because that concept of responsibility to protect, which states that if a country is not in a position or willing to protect its population, then the international community has a responsibility to go in because before then you can say this is a question of sovereignty.
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we have not been invited, we are not going to show up. that was a landmark achievement there but the un report to the security council at the end of may, 1995 and the genocide took place in april, 911, said on the un mission there, "we must all realise that we have failed in our response to the agony of rwanda and have thus acquiesced in the continued loss of human lives. " do you think you've acquiesced in those deaths? i don't think we acquiesced but we were helpless. i don't think we acquiesced. if you use the word acquiesce you're implying that 2,500 troops there could have stopped the genocide. you don't feel you've acquiesced. but we failed. was it... you had a long and distinguished career at the united nations, was that the lowest point in your career would you say? for me, being in the peacekeeping department, and also being an african coming from the continent and not being able to do something to help. i won't use the word acquiesce.
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we did fail. you said never again, everybody said that, and yet 1995, the year after rwanda, around 7,000—8,000 bosnian muslim men and boys were killed by serbs at srebrenica and again the united nations criticised for failing to prevent the massacre. it's always easy to find a scapegoat. the un... in fact, i used to say that the letters sg does not stand for secretary general, it stands for scape goat, and you can scapegoat the secretary general and the un even when the resources required are not made available. but it's the un's own report in 1999 when you were by then secretary general which was scathing in its criticisms of the un, it said had the un troops engaged the attacking serbs
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directly its possible events would have unfolded differently. it may have. but the un report is critical of the un. i released that report. you released it. is the un fit for purpose? i think the un... in today's world. i think the un can be improved, it's not perfect but if it didn't exist you would have had to create it. i think we need to look at how the un acts, the un structure, the decision—making processes, whether in the council or the general assembly. of course, i know you worked very hard to try to reform the security council and expand its membership, permanent seats forjapan, africa, india that sort of thing. let me put to you whatjohn sawers, former mi6 intelligence chief former ambassador to the un, said just recently. "we're seeing a reversion to the great power world where the multinational institutions that we built up since 1945 are becoming less effective. there's more competition partly because of the politics
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that is leading to big man leaders like trump, putin, xijingping, erdogan and others." is that where we're heading? less relevance for institutions like the un and more focus on the big man? it appears we're heading that way but i hope the pendulum will swing back. i think these strong leaders will come to understand that the approach they're taking doesn't work. we live in such an interdependent world and we have so many issues that no one country can resolve however powerful that country is. there's also something happening here, a shift, a shift taking place in terms of powershift into other regions, asia and china in particular, and that is very difficult for some in places like america to accept. but it's irreversible. the trend will continue and we have to find a way of dealing with it.
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where do you think american foreign policy is heading? you mentioned american there. we've seenjohn bolton, the new national security adviser, a man you remember when you were at the un. he was american ambassador to the united nations and famously said you could blow up ten floors of the un and no one would notice the difference, not in terms of getting rid of people but in terms of its mandate and what it achieves. they tear up the iran accord, they've got until may the 12th to decide... that would be very dangerous, and if the us pulls out next month i hope the other parties to the agreement, the europeans and iranians, will stick together, and let the us isolate itself. it would be destructive, it would cause problems and you're going to tear up the iran agreement at the same time as you're going to talk to the north koreans. what incentive do they have to talk all come to an agreement when they know you can tear it up the way you're tearing up the iranian agreement.
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which of the big men do you fear the most? i don't fear any of the big men, i worry about them in our world! i worry about them in our world and the problems they can cause for us. honestly, when i refer to the need for cool heads and soberjudgement i really am talking to all of them. here you are, you've turned 80, when are you going to finally retire? laughter i hope nane didn't plant that question. that's your wife. that's my wife, yeah. that's a constant debate. what's your answer to her and to us? i keep promising i will slow down but i don't think she believes me any more. kofi annan, thank you very much
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indeed for coming on hardtalk. applause hello again, good morning. all our weather this week is going to be coming in from the atlantic once again. most of the rain will be across the northern half of the uk. there won't be much rain around today, though, and most places will be dry. a little bit of sunshine, but we're seeing much more cloud arriving in from the atlantic. and a lot of the rain—bearing cloud is up here, and eventually that will arrive into the north—west during tuesday. but south of that, very warm and quite humid air, and that means quite a lot of cloud once again. now, there will be some sunshine from time to time,
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but out towards some of these western coasts and hills it may well be a little bit damp, and misty too. some more pronounced breaks in the cloud across central and northern scotland, the odd light shower in the far north of scotland. here, it's slightly cooler and fresher feel, but elsewhere another warm day to come. i think, even with a good deal of cloud around, those temperatures could get up to around 25 degrees. there'll be some breaks here and there, the sunshine coming and going, and overnight we'll have a few breaks, but on the whole, a lot of cloud around. far north of scotland still on the cooler side, but elsewhere, another warm night, perhaps no lower than 15 or 16 degrees. now, we saw that band of cloud earlier on. here it is here, in its glory. it's arriving into the far north—west during the second half, really, of tuesday. away from here, though, looks like it's probably going to be dry, and we may start to see a little bit more sunshine. that will start to boost the temperatures more widely, particularly across england and wales and the south—east of scotland, so 25, 26 degrees. that weather front is going to be a problem, though, around the middle part
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of the week, because it's staggering its way southwards. how quickly it goes southwards, that's going to be the difficulty, because there's a little wave on it, just delays the process. so we mayjust see a bit more rain for northern ireland on wednesday, wales and northern england, too. north of that, though, we should get more sunshine from scotland, pushing down into northern ireland. here, it's cooler and fresher air. south of our band of cloud and rain, particularly midlands, south—east, a very warm feeling day, especially when we have some sunshine. now, that weather front very weak as it moves its way towards the south—east for thursday. that weather front in the north also weaker, more areas of showers. let's look at the first one first of all. that is the boundary between the warm, muggy air and something cooler and fresher. so that moves through, producing very little rain. it gets cooler and fresher everywhere. we'll see some showers, more pronounced, really, across scotland. but those temperatures will be a bit lower — no better than 23 celsius. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. the headlines: a small break in the weather has
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allowed rescuers in the indian state of kerala more access to those affected by the worst flooding for a hundred years. translation: i thought i was going to die. even the boat i was rescued in almost capsized, my sister and i fell out of it, but somehow they were able to hold onto us. more reunions for families separated by the korean war. bittersweet encounters — they won't have long together. translation: i felt like cutting off my own flesh. anyone who has given birth knows what it feels like to leave their children behind. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: afg hanistan‘s president declares a 3—month ceasefire —
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