they want great discomfort because they want to see the charge to do more. this is the ireland to which pope frances has come, it's a different ireland and the one thatjohn paul ii visited in the last papal visit back in1979, visited in the last papal visit back in 1979, almost four decades ago. but it is one which is still predominantly a catholic country. and know what we are seeing is testimony from a number of families from around the world, notjust ireland, to mark this festival of families. i live in mumbai with my family. we have three beautiful children. i met

nisha in college, we fell in love and have been married for 19 years. we got to spend very little time with the children because of work. we had to make a decision as to what would be the priority. by the grace of god, we understood his plan for us was of god, we understood his plan for us was to spend time with the family so we us was to spend time with the family so we took a decision that i would go part—time and it life changing. in mumbai and in india, technology plays a big part in connecting people. it goes a long way in entertainment and doing things quickly. while the internet offers a lot of opportunities that have lots of risks, but being together as a family and communicating values and how one to live helps to take best advantage of what is on far around the world. so what we have tried to deliver family is to cut off from technology time. when faced that

just came out i wanted to be on facebook, but mum kept telling me not until i was 16. i think i benefited from not going on facebook ata benefited from not going on facebook at a young age because i am on facebook now, but i barely use it. on sunday evenings we have family fun time when we go out with the kids. it is so much fun to get time to play as a family. for me i feel that interaction with my family, face—to—face, is more important than through social media. face—to—face, is more important than through social medial face—to—face, is more important than through social media. i don't think technology alone can work wonders. it is the combination of people and technology, we put them together and thatis technology, we put them together and that is an awesome combination. i believe that god is on the present and is present in technology as well. —— omnipresent.

and is present in technology as well. -- omnipresent. testimony there from an indian family representing families from a number of nations involved in this event this evening, and a reminder of the fa ct this evening, and a reminder of the fact that the world is watching this eventin fact that the world is watching this event in ireland this weekend. it is very much a global event and the eyes of the world looking on ireland to hear what pope francis has to say ona number of to hear what pope francis has to say on a number of issues. joining me here at dublin castle is sure the money from the irish independent newspaper. it feels like a very long time since i spoke to you. give us your thoughts as we watch this event, the culmination of day one of pope francis's visit. it is true what you say about the eyes of the

world on ireland, given what we heard in pennsylvania a couple of yea rs heard in pennsylvania a couple of years ago, leo varadkar is probably the first head of state to address and admonish in the way he did the role of the catholic church in systemic abuse and cover—ups, and he about how the reds have to be a new chapter of the separation of church and state and he also called for actions are not words. he was strong in his review of the catholic church and that was quite a surprise for people. he also described how ireland had become a modern country, it had modernised laws and accepted that marriages sometimes cannot work and managers can be of the same—sex variety and women to make choices about their own bodily autonomy, and people were grateful for that. the streets just outside here, people were grateful for that. the streetsjust outside here, they people were grateful for that. the streets just outside here, they were relatively fool when it came to watching the pope to buy. nothing in

comparison, in stark contrast to 1979. one of the most poignant things the pope dead, he was given a warm welcome, but it was where one of the most ferocious magdalen laundry is existed. these were in situations where women were incarcerated and engaged in forced labour, because they lacked so—called respectability, sometimes unwed mothers, sometimes just incarcerated. only two decades since they closed down. exactly, and it remains a they closed down. exactly, and it remainsa stain they closed down. exactly, and it remains a stain on irish society. the taoiseach mentioned that today, saying they are still remembered and there is a lot of trauma and ireland. he has at croke park and is going to deliver his most important speech, he is ostensibly here to

meet families but the most important aspect of his visit is to deal with the abuse. we are seeing scenes of greetings humans and joy and that is what many catholics are feeling at the occasion of this visit, they wa nt to the occasion of this visit, they want to celebrate, but alongside that, for those gathered here tonight, in many of their minds they must be thinking about the scandals, the mistreatment of women and children, and that presents a challenge. a challenge to their faith and presents many questions as they look to the church for some more answers? moral authority, still. it is an international meeting so it is notjust irish people attending croke park. there's a lot of music and riverdance and excitement. pope francis seems to be enjoying himself. people still want to see the church as a place where they can play and be close tojesus and the christian religion, because

of course the church has done a of positive things and ireland over the yea rs positive things and ireland over the years when it comes to schooling, charity, compassion. the real message ofjesus, charity, compassion. the real message of jesus, that charity, compassion. the real message ofjesus, that people would like to see the church continue in that vein. at the same time, i mentioned earlier that social changes in this country have been immense and overwhelming in terms of the fact that the abortion referendum sought 67% of people voting in favour. a lot of those people would have to have been catholics, so they may look to the church for moral authority but they make decisions, where they can make their choices about social issues, so that is an important point to make as well. this is an opportunity for pope francis to speak irish catholics and catholics around the world, especially in european nations where perhaps fewer and fewer people are identifying as catholics, although here and ireland

a vast majority of the population still do. almost at the end of day one of this visit, how do you think they have done? it is an opportunity. it was an opportunity because his main speech yesterday was the one where he spoke to our head of government, our head of states and dignitaries and that is where he should have dealt with the church's role within the irish constitution and the irish state, and unfortunately that is a strong consensus to say that he failed in that regard and he reiterated the apologies of the past, but remember, ireland has been dealing with abuse scandal since the 1990s. are we still having this conversation where the head of the catholic church is not saying that those people would have to face justice? we know over 90% of the perpetrators globally have walked free and that is the case with the catholic church now and he didn't meet his words with actions or talk about mandatory reporting, and the a lot of people

we re reporting, and the a lot of people were incredibly disappointed. he reiterated the apologies of his predecessor, and we now pope benedict was a disappointment when it came to this matter. leo varadkar are called for actions to follow words and we have been hearing that for a while. impunity is a word that can go to describe the actions and words of abusers. these are rapists, people who carried out paedophile rings in pennsylvania. the various reports when it came to sexual abuse and ireland, the testimonies are horrifying, so we're not talking, i know you sometimes use language that sanitised what happened in this country, but when you lead the testimony they are horrific, and the fa ct testimony they are horrific, and the fact the catholic church hasn't disclosed are committed that it moved priests around and those

responsible and culpable for a lot of this, it is a real missing matter when it comes to culpability. the irony will not be lost on many that the last festival of families was in pennsylvania and we have just heard that the pennsylvania grand jury report on the abuse of hundreds of children in the 19705 and 805, so the eyes of the world are on ireland and on what pope francis i5 the eyes of the world are on ireland and on what pope francis is saying. it'll be fascinating if we do find out what was said in the conversation with the abuse survivors that we are hearing about in the last couple of hours. will he perhaps have said something more to them? if you look at who he met as well, maybe collins, 5he them? if you look at who he met as well, maybe collins, she was an abu5e survivor from the 19605 who had some terrible things done to her, child pornography and other things, really horrific. she has been at the forefront of leading change. she still is a catholic and

was part of the commission for the protection of minors launched by pope francis burke re5igned protection of minors launched by pope francis burke resigned from that in 2017 because of the cultural re5ista nce that in 2017 because of the cultural resistance that she met within the catholic hierarchy, that proves that really it is resistant to change, because even when someone like power is appointed by pope francis to do something right, she meets cultural resista nce something right, she meets cultural resistance to the point she has to resign. yet here she was in dublin a little while ago, still talking, still trying. which is a really important and positive thing and i think catholics should show a lot of solidarity to horror and thanks because she could have walked away and she is trying to change the church are good. people like mary mcaleese as well, she wants to change the church for good, not walking away as you understand many people would do, she wants to make the church a better and more welcoming and compassionate place and more in line with the words of jesus christ. we heard from another

abuse survivor today who was raped bya abuse survivor today who was raped by a priest when he was 1a and he spoke about the appointment by pope francis recently of a mexican bishop elevated to the position of cardinal, who was talking about abuse victims and warning them they had skeletons in their closet and could be stepped on is that they we re could be stepped on is that they were devils. how can the pope sent a message of support and appoint a cardinal like that? sullying the reputations of people who were actually brave enough to come forward with their stories. this cardinal, the cardinal of washington, was supposed to speak on wednesday and don't let the last minute ruled out because of course it was incredibly inappropriate for him to be here in the first place. pope francis himself has admitted he was wrong when it came to chile. there was evidence of sexual abuse

by priests in chile and pope francis didn't believe these people initially, so he has been guilty of it and unfortunately there have been too many holes in pope francis's experience when it comes to this matter. we all thought he would be a bit of a revolutionary and would do his best to support sexual abuse survivors, but we are found wanting and many people have found him wanting to today with his words and lack of action and is continuing apologies. again, words are meaningless without action. and we're expecting to see, perhaps protest is not the right word, but dignified demonstrations tomorrow. to protest at the abuse of children, to remember the child victims, mother and baby institutions and so on. the tying of baby shoes to the railings of the church today in dublin which will undoubtedly be

very poignant, and the fact we are talking at such length about the scandals does say something. it says something about the dominant issues of this visit. clearly we are looking at the festival of families as well. that is an aspect to it of celebration. there is quite an aspect of celebration and the pope will tonight talk about the importance of forgiveness and how forgiveness is a virtue. it is not to say that abuse survivors don't wa nt to to say that abuse survivors don't want to forgive, it is just that you need from the catholic church for reconciliation to happen, and that is what those dignified gatherings and protests will be saying tomorrow. but of course they are willing to forgive but they also wa nt to willing to forgive but they also want to ensure that the truth comes out, it is called stand for truth. 0ne out, it is called stand for truth. one of the people in attendance tomorrow will be one of the last women incarcerated in a magdalen laundry. a0 years of age, it is not

historical, it is still current in that regard. and people are entitled to celebrate tonight and enjoy their catholicism. nobody is saying they shouldn't, but it doesn't mean these grave crimes shouldn't be recognised and the catholic church should do its best to ensure there is justice for all. how much control does the pope have as an individual to make changes, or is he bound by the bureaucracy of the vatican?|j changes, or is he bound by the bureaucracy of the vatican? i think thatis bureaucracy of the vatican? i think that is something. i have had these conversations these past few months with people who are experts, canon lawyers, people who have lived in rome. an excuse by pope francis for not breaking waves, not penetrating the catholic church hierarchy in that way, is that he comes up against a lot of conservative cardinals in rome, and that could be

problematic. at the end of the day, as pope in his 805 you might think he wants a legacy which is that he cleaned up the catholic church and that the right thing. the right thing from a legal perspective but also because that is what he is supposed to do as god's representative on earth, and surely god orjesus would want these people punished. the children who suffered, that they would be listened to and compensated. the new chapter that the irish prime minister leo varadkar was talking the irish prime minister leo va radkar was talking about the irish prime minister leo varadkar was talking about a little earlier, can it be a new chapter in terms of the relationship between the church and the state, if that isn't what the victims are calling for? everybody has to bring something to the table when you engage in negotiation to end the conflict, and there is no doubt that there conflict between the irish state in the catholic church, so a new chapter can be opened but the catholic church has to come to the

table and say this is what we are going to do to make amends. when you still have the catholic church refusing to disclose a lot of the records and documentation, and we still need to have judicial enquiries, then thatjust goes to show you that they are not forthcoming with that, so that is really difficult because you don't have a reliable partner to negotiate wet. that is hugely problematic. if you see the catholic church is not coming forward in this regard then how can you trust it, how can you know down the line that will not be further cover—ups. there will be paedophile priests who could target young children, we just paedophile priests who could target young children, wejust don't paedophile priests who could target young children, we just don't know. how could the church they vitalise itself? we are seeing great vitality at croke park tonight, but where once ireland exported priests to the rest of the world, there are very few irish men entering the seminary to train as priests. many of the priests and parishes ireland ireland are now elderly. what can it do to

revitalise itself? are we talking about the ordination of women which is an issue many people would like the catholic church to look at. are we talking about ideas like asking men to return to the priesthood, men who left to get married. they are all options and one of the reasons the catholic church has bought in this country is because a lot of excellent clerics and parish priests that live in this country, i have spoken to them many times myself and they are outspoken and quite disgusted with the tarnishing of the church which they joined disgusted with the tarnishing of the church which theyjoined earnestly, and really want to defend but find it difficult. don't want it overshadowing the good work. exactly, but u nfortu nately overshadowing the good work. exactly, but unfortunately they are getting elderly. 0ne exactly, but unfortunately they are getting elderly. one of the things people support pope francis for is his role in supporting refugees, climate change and global warming. these are big, modern issues and

that can help revitalise the church, a return to the proper message of the dignity of man, and that could work. in terms of priests, the catholic church has had such a terrible relationship with women, as isaid, terrible relationship with women, as i said, 2015 is the 20th anniversary ofjohn paul ii's encyclical against contraception. you have families with 15 children being told they had to have a child of the year despite the fact there was poverty and families couldn't really live under the strict conditions. he still kept doing it because they wanted to be proper catholics. you have the catholic church against contraception and parts of africa, where hiv is rampant. those social issues really have to be dealt with. from an irish are global perspective, the ordination of

women, but it has to come from the heart, not because there are simply not enough men around, because that would really be not acceptable either. one of the other interesting conversations i had with the contributor earlier was saying that many issues such as the environment the vatican that are outside for advice to guide them on their approach when it came to the role of women. with the role of women they didn't do that and it was an interesting contrast. it is a patriarch you but it would have to look out world, many argue. people have been saying that for centuries. that have always been people coming along and having that conversation. in organised religion, because culture is something that is so incredibly difficult to change, but even when you think about marie collins, and abuse survivor who wa nts to collins, and abuse survivor who wants to do the right thing in the

catholic church, she has come up against cultural resistance to one of the simplest thing she would imagine the church wants to change, child sexual abuse. how can you imagine them moving on something when it comes to ordination of women. i had talked recently with a local parish priest, and he described the relationship with women as one of hatred and fear, that dark and deep and disdainful and misogynistic. 0ne isn't too optimistic about that. and the inclusion of lgb key people, we heard again from leo varadkar in the run—up to the arrival of the pope, how he rejected how uncomfortable he is with the way the church describes lgb key people, and we might have had talks from priests who are considered to liberal in the run—up to this event. ——. clearly the

church has a lot of work to do. what has pope francis said. the treatment of lg bt people has pope francis said. the treatment of lgbt people as outcasts in society and with pure disdain is utterly repugnant to a progressively liberal country like ireland. the tide has already turned in this regard and the church is so far removed. pope francis has the past made about lgbt people saying they are people of god, children of god, but never made any orders to include lg bt but never made any orders to include lgbt people but never made any orders to include lg bt people in but never made any orders to include lgbt people in mass are sacrament, and i'm not even saying same—sex marriage because nobody is saying they should have that pair say, but welcoming lgbt they should have that pair say, but welcoming lg bt people they should have that pair say, but welcoming lgbt people who feel catholic, it is something thatjesus of nazareth would probably have done. and just reflecting on this festival of families, we are reminded that families come in many different shapes and forms, and what

we heard from pope francis today has been largely talking about the traditional model of the family? been largely talking about the traditional model of the family7m really has, and this is his third speech tonight in croke park, and the speech earlier today spoke about the speech earlier today spoke about the importance of family and the guidance of god through love. every occasion he mentioned mother and father, man and wife. he had plenty of opportunity to talk about the fa ct of opportunity to talk about the fact that in ireland families are diverse and people have been brought up diverse and people have been brought up by diverse and people have been brought up by grandmothers and grandfathers or by single mothers and fathers, same—sex pa rents, or by single mothers and fathers, same—sex parents, it doesn't make them any less of a family. i think that lacked compassion. it was notable by its absence and similarly he will be talking about family again tonight at croke park, and absent will be that compassion, and really what you do is by making it only about a man and a woman, then

you are excluding other families and thatis you are excluding other families and that is quite hurtful to catholics who don't have that conformity in their marriage. are you saying fundamentally that even if he sounds very compassionate and his speech and uses compassionate language, if it is just about the traditional family model then it fundamentally lacks compassion? of course it does because if you're compassion is only applied to one idea about what marriage can be, then you are also casting out anybody else wants to be pa rt casting out anybody else wants to be part of that. it is incredibly hurtful and we witnessed that during the debate three years ago during the debate three years ago during the referendum on same—sex marriage, people who felt that they had been outside irish society because they are marriage wasn't deemed to be a marriage, or the family wasn't deemed to be a family, even though they were bringing up children in they were bringing up children in the best possible way and had the same the best possible way and had the 5a m e love the best possible way and had the same love for children as any other family. to undermine that was

hurtful and that is why it was so joyous when the state wanted to equalise their relationship and why people were so emotional, yet the church the next day issued a statement condemning that. that was the long thing to do and i don't think anyone can argue to cast aside people's families as something that is compassionate. and as we look at croke park now, just moments before we are expecting the pope to speak, the performance on the stage reflecting the revised —— diverse cultures and music, the reach of the catholic church around the world. and of course the families from many different countries who are represented here tonight. shauna mullin a from the irish

independent is still with me. let's just take an opportunity if we can to look ahead to tomorrow, what is planned? he will be an knock, the site where the previous pope had been, it is a wholly part of ireland. he will deliver a message to phoenix park, supposed to be attended by 500,000 people, that is how many we now should be attending. he is only here for 36 hours in total, eight very short visit although quite packed. it will cost the state up to a0 million euros which people have complained is excessive, but tomorrow will be one of the most important days of the visit because he will replicate the 1979 mass withjohn paul ii and people are reliving that when you think about a lot of the commentary over the last few weeks, reliving

1979, are campaigning and contrasting 1979, to today. he will deliver that people message and mass in phoenix park. we are seeing a member of the irish travelling community addressing the crowd and the pope. a member of the travelling community and that is another part of what the pope had said today in his message, about solidarity towards people who are often on the outside, often distracted in ireland is one of those ethnic groups in society who tend to be on the outside, so it is nice to see that inclusivity here. and ifjust joining us at dublin castle on bbc news and bbc world, former police ombudsman in northern ireland, a

catholic, someone who has criticised the church as well. and we see that in evidence in many people in ireland now, that is that dual aspect of faith, the faith and the criticism. i think that is inevitable and of an organisation is to grow and learn it has to criticise and that has to change and i don't see any problem with that. what do you think of how pope francis has responded to that criticism today over the course of this first day? he very much wants to keep the focus on the families and the well— being to keep the focus on the families and the well—being of families because many have travelled from across the world to travel to dublin to enjoy this experience of the family of the church joining together. very early on in his speech at dublin castle he talked about the child abuse crisis and talked about the accountability of bishops and i think that is

profoundly important. i think that what we have at the moment are structures that are in need of development at the very least. they need to bring professionals in to do investigation, in to do the analysis that needs to be done, but all that needs to happen faster than it is at the present time, but i think the pope has made the apology, and in meeting the victims that is profoundly important. he did say that meeting the victims has to be 90% listening and i hope that happened, i hope he really heard what they had to say. i am sure he will take it away and synthesise it and bring it into this huge problem that exists. one of the lease it is such a problem as you get cases, it is not all simple, at the moment, if a priest or religious figure convicted, they are out of the

church, but no longer priests. but then the problem is, the church has no power over them any more. they cannot manage them, so we really need to think about that, think about protecting children and we need to think about the wider problem which is the problem of sexual abuse and cited. that is an interesting point you make about priest to a defrocked, about how they are monitored, which has not been raised today so far. of course, pope francis has not been to ireland before in a papal capacity, so it is right that he should apologise on irish soil, and right that he should meet victims on irish soil as pope. but do you think what he has said today is enough, is as much as could have been expected, or should he have been saying more, evenif should he have been saying more, even if not in great detail, about what further concrete actions the church might take? i did not expect to make an announcement which would be shattering at a time when