ofthe convicted, they are out of the church, but no longer priests. but then the problem is, the church has no power over them any more. they cannot manage them, so we really need to think about that, think about protecting children and we need to think about the wider problem which is the problem of sexual abuse and cited. that is an interesting point you make about priest to a defrocked, about how they are monitored, which has not been raised today so far. of course, pope francis has not been to ireland before in a papal capacity, so it is right that he should apologise on irish soil, and right that he should meet victims on irish soil as pope. but do you think what he has said today is enough, is as much as could have been expected, or should he have been saying more, evenif should he have been saying more, even if not in great detail, about what further concrete actions the church might take? i did not expect to make an announcement which would be shattering at a time when he has

come to deliver a message on family and church. i think he wanted the emphasis to be on the family, to be on the role of the family in the church, the importance of the family, the need to nurture family and the church, the many different broken forms. i grew up in a where i died when i grew igrew up i grew up in a family where my father died when i was 13. the church look after us. there are so much going on for families in the church today, that i think it is right the pope, if you like, that one of the first things he said, having greeted the diplomats, was, this is terrible, and we must deal with it. i think he does intend to deal with it, but he has got a big battle on his hand and he needs more resources. i think he is minded to do it and the people want them to do it. what is your take on the nature of the battle? he is the supreme leader of the catholic church, but what is stopping him, who is

stopping him, from further action?|i think stopping him, from further action?” think what you have is a church which is represented in 170 countries, each with aaron legal system. —— their own legal system. there are countries where child abuse and rape just are not investigated as crime or viewed as crime. i remembergoing investigated as crime or viewed as crime. i remember going to liberia when i was working for the irish government as a special envoy, and going to see the child abuse centre in the police station in monro via. they had a desk, a chair, and a computer, not even a camera to photograph injuries, and if there was no witness, there could be no prosecution. so you have all those problems across different countries, andi problems across different countries, and i think what we have to recognise is, this is not a simple matter of saying, do this and it will be done. the primary responsibility for ms to getting the crime is that the state authorities. the church must cooperate, and the pope has said that. if the church is not cooperating, bishops must be

dealt with. if the church cooperate with the state, it must and does allow the state to act first, what must learn followers, what does the church to win the state turns around and says, there isn't evidence to prosecute? and and says, there isn't evidence to prosecute ? and so and says, there isn't evidence to prosecute? and so someone is not guilty, not prosecuted, and you have got a complaint, you have got no evidence really to support it. what happens? and what happens to the person against whom the complaint is made? that is a big problem for us to try and work out. anotherfamily to try and work out. another family speaking here on the stage at croke park. ahead of pope francis‘ speech, the third of this first day of his visit. our correspondent from the irish independent are still with me here. shona, some very interesting points raised by baroness malone there.

yes, and they are important in relation to thejudicial yes, and they are important in relation to the judicial systems, whether they would be balanced enough to investigate crimes. similarly, they would probably have a relationship with the catholic church where the church would have quite a bit of authority, and maybe there would not be the will to investigate. however, in countries like ireland and western countries, we do have the judicial system, like ireland and western countries, we do have thejudicial system, and there is a readiness and a willingness now, at least, more so than in the past. but unfortunately, that resistance still a disc so how do you explain that as well? the fa ct do you explain that as well? the fact that the grand jury in pennsylvania has talked about at least 1000 people are victims of child sexual abuse, the youngest 18 months old. one little girl, a seven—year—old who was raped in hospital while her tonsils were taken out. hospital while her tonsils were ta ken out. these hospital while her tonsils were taken out. these situations are in situ, but the catholic church has resisted when it comes to putting forward suspects of sexual abuse, not even putting forward. they have actually covered them up, and are still remains a key question. so how

can you apologise and talk about contrition and write wonderful 2000 word letters before you can do this country, but not come forward with any ideas about how to work with the judicial system instead of against it? i think they do have ideas to work with the judicial system. the systems are firmly established in ireland. any complaint, any time, any kind is reported to the authorities, and it is for them to deal with it. the church steps back. it is the same in england and a. any report, any allegation, straight to the statutory authorities, who then deal with it. —— the statutory authorities, who then dealwith it. —— england the statutory authorities, who then deal with it. —— england and wales. anything you have is that the churches and —— the church is an institution. in england and wales, the independent enquiry into child sex the independent enquiry into child sex abuse includes the catholic church, but it is also enquiring into the anglican church, councils, and all sorts of bodies. all branches of life. all branches of

life. so child abuse is there. we know that across the world, 95% of priests are not in any way engaged in this criminal activity, and we have to keep a sense of proportion and recognise the good work that they do. then we have the working countries where it can be done. we have to work with them. what we must be enormously cautious of in those countries, and they are not necessarily countries where the catholic church is represented in anything but a minor role, but we must be very careful that if, for example, you introduce mandatory reporting, and the police are not going to deal with it, but you do identify for corrupt people vulnerable children who might then be more vulnerable, because in those states, the issue will not be dealt with, but the children are identified, and you could actually make them at risk of further abuse. soiam make them at risk of further abuse. so i am not in anyway... i am all for mandatory reporting, i think it must happen, but it must happen so long as you can be sure that finding

out that a child has been abuse will not make that child subject possibly to further reduce. it is a hugely complex and nuanced situation to try to sort out, depending on what part of the world you are talking about. i wonder what are your thoughts more broadly on the relationship between the irish people and the catholic church? obviously, it is a much more complex and less deferential one. more so than when popejohn paul ii came, andi more so than when popejohn paul ii came, and i think most people agree thatis came, and i think most people agree that is good, there should be more ofa that is good, there should be more of a separation of church and state and so on. but how do you think that changing relationship is reflected in the response we are seeing for pope francis? i was thinking about it, the same numbers are not coming out that they did for pope john paul ii, but actually, people can now travel to rome or go and see the pope there if they want to. in 1979, very few people got on aeroplanes

and went to rome, so it is a very different world we live in. i think the church is a smaller church in ireland. i think that is good, because i think people were corralled into church. i think the importance of churches, if it is about a relationship with jesus and the heart ofjesus in the community, we can see hundreds and thousands of people in ireland who still want to be part of that church in which the heart ofjesus be part of that church in which the heart of jesus beats. and they the italian tenor singing now. —— andrea bocelli, the italian tenor. your thoughts on what we just heard, about how we see in this visit the changing relationship? yes, the point you made there, about the church being where there were about the relationship withjesus, there will be a lot more people here today if that church allowed people who wa nt to if that church allowed people who want to be close to jesus if that church allowed people who want to be close tojesus as a fully fledged member, and that is the issue. lgbt fledged member, and that is the issue. lg bt people fledged member, and that is the issue. lgbt people have been cast aside and tell they are not welcome,

that they are not loved in the way that they are not loved in the way that they are not loved in the way that they want to be. you would have them probably turning up to this mass in their droves if they could be part of it. it is about exclusion, and that is the issue a lot of people have. you look slightly perplexed.” lot of people have. you look slightly perplexed. i am just slightly perplexed. i am just slightly perplexed. i am just slightly perplexed. there was a workshop in the rds, and one of the examples was of how the lgbt community are integrated into church. so there are examples, and lg bt church. so there are examples, and lgbt people i know are members of the church. now, the catholic church teaches that marriage and the union ofa man teaches that marriage and the union of a man and woman is for procreation, and they teach that sexual activity should only occur within marriage. so it doesn't matter if you are single, gay, whatever you are. the church would teach that outside marriage, there should not be sexual activity, and i can see that that is the point i think you are making, so it is not just the lgbt community, it is anybody else. but the point you made

earlier was that if the church is a relationship with jesus, earlier was that if the church is a relationship withjesus, the church is not giving them access tojesus, regardless of the church‘s teaching about celibacy are only having sexual relations during marriage. if people don‘t have that, they still wa nt people don‘t have that, they still want a relationship with jesus, people don‘t have that, they still want a relationship withjesus, but they are not welcome. perhaps it is not a uniformity of approach across parishes. ads in some parishes lgbt bebo feel welcome, in others, not?” think that is true, and divorced people as well. some parishes, divorced people i made more welcome. but the trend and the tenor and the movement of the church as led by francis was that they would be made welcome, and even the catechism of the catholic church says that everybody must be treated with respect. there must be no onjustice domination. so i think we have a journey to make. absolutely. generational lee, do you think the church is going to lose members of its congregation if it doesn‘t embrace as inclusive a congregation

as possible? i think if it seeks to embrace —— i think it seeks to embrace —— i think it seeks to embrace as inclusivity congregation as it can, and the nature of family now is very different to 40 years ago, anything that priests, day in, day out, priests, deacons, they are all working with all these different relationships and trying to bring people tojesus, which it is all about. it is not about anything else. the catholic church has sought to embrace people of families and all dispositions, and that is why there has been so much hurt and pain. even now, they do not. but in the past... in the past, they did not. but similar to what lee over a car has said today, in place of christianity, there has been scorned, there has been injustice, cruelty and trauma. in place of christianity. —— what leo varadkar said today. and again, thejudgment

against single mothers, unmarried women, is right at the heart of that, and that does not embrace them. i think you are quite right. every child who is created, every child, is a child of god. it doesn't matter into which family had comes. the church of races each child. —— the church embraces each child. i'm saying you are absolutely right, in the past they didn't. i think that has changed. i think what we have seen over the course of the day is perhaps a difference in the level of patience that various people have with the church with its approach, with the church with its approach, with the church with its approach, with the pace of its approach. thank you both very much for a very unjust in conversation. good to hear your thoughts —— very interesting conversation. as evening falls on dublin city, just glancing behind the bright lights of the area we are standing

m, in lights of the area we are standing in, in dublin castle, and feeling slightly surprised that it is now dusk. we are looking on at croke park here in the city, not too far away from where we are. where this festival of families is taking place at the culmination of day one of this two—day visit by pope francis to ireland. we have seen dancing, music, singing. we have seen families from many parts of the world. they stand in front of the pope and give their testimonies, the design including this area called the circle of encounter where the pope and some of those families sit and listen to other testimonies, to these films which are being shown to the crowd,

and to the performances, the capacity of the stadium more than 82,000, and it looks pretty full from what we can see here. the theme, then, this evening, of this event, and what we are expecting the pope to talk about, of course, is the family. it really has been the key theme of today, because this is the official reason for the pope being here, to take part in this event, this festival of families which celebrates and reflects on the role of the family in the catholic church. it is an event organised every three years, with dublin hosting the event this time round. we saw the pope and one of dublin‘s cathedrals earlier, talking about marriage, talking about lifelong

commitment, about how to bring children up in the catholic faith and with catholic values, as he met in gauge to and newly married couples —— engaged and newly married, and a couple who have recently celebrated their golden wedding anniversary. he said you could fling plates at each other, so long as you make up before the end of the day. that was his advice to couples and the congregation there laughed. they responded to him very warmly, as indeed we are seeing on the faces of the crowd at croke park tonight, as they watched this, the latest in a series of films they are being shown from around the world, beginning with a family from india a little while ago. and then here are dublin castle where i am talking to you from,

after he had been to visit the irish president michael higgins, we heard the first of the pope‘s speeches of the first of the pope‘s speeches of the day, alongside the irish prime minister, who called on pope francis above all to listen to the victims, and to ensure that, following the words come actions. we have had different assessments today of how much could have been expected from this visit. we await with interest to hear what, if indeed we do here, what the pope has said in his conversations with survivors of abuse. meeting aid victims of abuse for 90 minutes in dublin this evening. —— eight. among them, two

priests, and marie collins, who has spoken extensively as a campaigner for the church to reform and to do more to tackle this terrible scandal here in ireland and around the world. she was invited by pope francis to take part in a commission on abuse, but then stood down. talking about her frustration at the attitudes and the pace of the work that was being done. but a testament to her that she is still speaking about it, continuing to have that conversation, meeting the pope in dublin today. so as i say, we do wait to hear whether any of the people taking part in that conversation wish to make public what was said. the 81—year—old pontiff, again

greeting and blessing those taking pa rt greeting and blessing those taking part in this event on the stage with him tonight. a hugely special moment for them. and we are seeing on the face of the pope, i think, and we are seeing on the face of the pope, ithink, what and we are seeing on the face of the pope, i think, what has endeared him to many people, that engaged response. he clearly enjoys meeting people. from the streets of argentina, and his work with the homeless, here to dublin, ireland... he clearly loves engaging with the

public, and his advisers around him who use social media do a rather good job of making sure that his presence on social media is one that engages the public as well. a little more music now before we hear from the pope. and shona murray and the baroness ashton with me here at dublin castle. it feels to me like one of those occasions where before it is over, and there are still another day or the best part of a day still to come, a fairly definitive assessment of the visit has happened. would you

ee, of the visit has happened. would you agree, shona? yes, as i said earlier, the speech today with the irish prime minister, the head of government, the head of state, the dignitaries, the abuse survivors, the people involved in lawmaking in this country, was the speech that people expected to hear, any revolution of the church‘s position that comes to justice on systemic abuse. and so therefore, the assessments came from abuse survivors, people who had already said that this visit has been a wasted opportunity, unfortunately. now, who we haven‘t heard from you, and there is still hope, are people like marie collins and the eight abuse survivors he met for 90 minutes before he arrived at croke park. we know that marie collins is the person who won‘t hide the truth and will not mince her words when it comes to what the conversation is about, and whether she believes there is substance to it or not.

furthermore clodagh malone and another woman, who worked there, i think one hearfrom another woman, who worked there, i think one hear from them tomorrow will be very important and a watermark for this visit. definitely, people to watch out for in terms of what they say. you think it is fair that assessment that we are getting... we have got the measure of this visit before it is over? i think it has been a very successful day. i think it has been a happy day for many, many people. i think there is this meeting, i am so looking forward to hearing the product of this meeting between the victims, and i don't think the pope will tell us what was said. i think it will only be the victims who will tell us what was said, but i hope for them that they really, really felt heard, because i think that is the first thing that they need, and in the second thing they need is action, and we have had a lot of action, and we have had a lot of

action in terms of payment of restitution, compensation, in terms of setting up new systems here and ensuring as best we can that this cannot happen again, and i don't think it could happen again in ireland. soi think it could happen again in ireland. so i think we have come a long way, but i think there is more to be done. in trying to work out how the church can effectively deal, whether police say there is no case to answer. i think that is the real problem for the church. i think there is no doubt the pope will not have anyone in ministry who has been convicted of an offence against a child, vulnerable person, or anybody else. that isjust not going to happen now, and that messages out there, andi happen now, and that messages out there, and i think they should know that too. in any bishop who does not report, who does not cooperate with civil authorities, knows that this is not a place he should be, and knows that ultimately it is going to come out. so i think the bishops of ireland understand this fully, i think the bishops of england and why do, ithink think the bishops of england and why do, i think the bishops in america do, i think the bishops in america do now, but it took them a long time to get there. and i think most of

what you are talking about with the philadelphia report is... i mean, it is absolutely terrible. in a way, though, it is like the reports we have had here in england. it is historic. it is still there for the victims. it is everyday they are living with it, but it is not happening in the same way. living with it, but it is not happening in the same waym living with it, but it is not happening in the same way. it is recent history, though. recent history, yes. i heard, nickel say that since 2000, absolutely every allegation has been reported to the police, and that is the same here now. “— police, and that is the same here now. —— conor nickel. so not to deny, not to minimise, but don't frighten people. let them know that we do now have systems in ireland which do protect children, and the church is a safe place for children in ireland now. i don't know, though, the people that have been talking today, lg bt though, the people that have been talking today, lgbt campaign the victims of abuse, feel frightened, but they feel underwhelmed was one

word used to describe what pope francis said earlier today. they feel frustrated that the church hasn‘t said more, that there is that signalling of from the very top homicide perhaps —— from the very top, so perhaps it is not completely true to say this has been a successful visit. i‘m afraid laughter and up, because to practice has got his feet now and is beginning his speech. —— i will have to interrupt. translation: good evening. lam i am grateful to all of you for your warm i am grateful to all of you for your warm welcome. it is good to be here. it is good to

celebrate, for celebration makes us more human and more christian. it also helps us to share the joy of knowing thatjesus it also helps us to share the joy of knowing that jesus loves it also helps us to share the joy of knowing thatjesus loves us, he accompanies us knowing thatjesus loves us, he accompanies us on our knowing thatjesus loves us, he accompanies us on ourjourney of life, and each day, he draws us closer to himself. in anyfamily in any family celebration, everyone‘s presence is felt. fathers, mothers, grandparents, grandchildren, uncles and aunts, and cousins. those who cannot calm and those who live too far away, all of them. today dublin, we are gathered for a family celebration of thanksgiving to god for who we are. one family in christ, spread throughout the world.

the church is the family of god‘s children, a family in which we rejoice with those who are rejoicing, and weep with those who grieve or feel knocked down by life. afamily in grieve or feel knocked down by life. a family in which we care for everyone, for god our father has made us all his children in baptism. that is one of the reasons why i keepin that is one of the reasons why i keep in courage and parents to baptise their children as soon as possible. —— i keep encouraging pa rents, possible. —— i keep encouraging parents, so they can become part of this great family of god. we need to invite everyone to the

party. also, the small children. and for this reason, we have to baptise them and for this reason, we have to ba ptise them right and for this reason, we have to baptise them right away, and there is something else. if the child is baptised, the holy spirit immediately is pulled into his or her heart. you, dearfamilies, you, dear families, are you, dearfamilies, are the you, dear families, are the vast majority of the people of god. what would a church look like without you? it would be a church made up of statues. in order to help us to recognise the beauty and importance of family, with its lights and shadows, i wrote

my exhortation on the joy of love, andi my exhortation on the joy of love, and i wanted the theme of this world meeting of families to be the gospel of the family, joy for the world. applause god wants every family to be a beacon of joy, of his love in god wants every family to be a beacon ofjoy, of his love in our world. what does this mean? it means that we, who have encountered god‘s saving love, try with or without words to express it in little acts

of kindness in our daily routine and in the most hidden moments of our day. that is what holiness is all about. i like to speak of the saints next door. all of those ordinary people who reflect god‘s presence in the life and history of our world. the vocation to love and to holiness is not something reserved for a few privileged. no. even now, if we have eyes to see, we can see it being

lived out all around us. it is suddenly present in the heart of all of those families that offer love, forgiveness and mercy when they see the need. and do so quietly, without great fanfare.