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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  August 30, 2018 12:30am-1:01am BST

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the partial backdown follows protest earlier this year. in a rare televised address he said the retirement age for women would go up gradually from 55 to 60. but for men it will still jump from 60 to 65. australia's aboriginal leaders have expressed outrage at the appointment of former prime minister, tony abbott, as special envoy on indigenous affairs. the community questions his track—record. and this story is popular on bbc.com a fish and chip restaurant in yorkshire in the north of england, has translated its menu into mandarin and cantonese, after an increase in chinese tourists. scotts fish and chips, near york, has seen coach loads of visitors wanting to try the traditional dish. that's all. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi.
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i am in washington where my guest in this exclusive interview is president uhuru kenyatta of kenya who has been holding talks here at the white house with donald trump about security, trade and investment. but how can president kenyatta invite investors to kenya when the country is so mired in corruption that pervades all walks of life and enriches the few at the expense of the many? president kenyatta says that fighting corruption is his priority. so why do questions remain about how effective his efforts are? president uhuru kenyatta, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, zeinab. you have had your meeting with donald trump. this is a president who describe some african countries
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as s—hole nations. he has also upset the south africans by referring to farm seizures and la rge—scale killings of white farmers. is this really a man you can do business with? let me put it to you this way. i think that what we need to do is to basically create a better understanding of the situation. i think i had an opportunity to really do that today. i would not say he is a man who was unwilling to listen, he did listen. and we exchanged on a wide variety of issues and i think he has a much better understanding of africa and of kenya after our session and i think he is basically a person who wants to do deals. he wants to see how we can partner. that is the way i would actually broach the issue. i would not look at
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it from past issues. i would look at it more from, well, i have a better understanding now, can we do business? and we say that africa is ready for business. africa is open and africa is a continent with wide diversity and we need to be able to put out the real and true picture of who africa is today. when you say he wants to do deals with you, that america wants to do deals with africa, we know, of course, that trade relations between africa and china is worth four times what american trade with africa is. is there a sense you would like to see that balanced redressed? absolutely. as i have always maintained, africa is looking to do business with the world. africa is not the same african continent of a few years ago. not even centuries, just a few years ago.
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there have been dramatic changes, zeinab, across the african continent where people are beginning to get a much better understanding of themselves, who they are, where they are and where they want to be. we are looking to see how we can partner with countries across the globe. the united states, china, europe, great britain. an understanding that is not a patronising partnership but one that is a win—win partnership, one that understands that africa needs to move ahead, that african people seek prosperity. that africa has come of age and it looks not towards aid but how to do mutually beneficial trade and investment negotiations that benefit both parties. it looks like a win—lose situation at times. i give you just one example from your country, the chinese have built the nairobi to mombasa railway that was completed last year and cost 3.2 billion
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dollars according to the danish institute for development studies, three times the standard for the industry. i put it to you that perhaps you need to say african countries need to better leverage their position with china and other investors. i think we are doing precisely that. but you have not been doing that. one of the things you have got to appreciate and understand is that we are talking about replacing an entire rail system that was built over 110 years ago. as a result of the railway line that we have now established with china, that is now operational and moving passengers who used to spend 16 hours on the road or rail because of traffice. but you paid too much for it. that is the point. no, we didn't. and if you look at the costings and estimated the fact that we also had to... these days you need to do
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things differently. it was traversing across in national parks. we had to take into account how to ensure that we do not destabilise... it could have been cheaper. i am using it as an example. but we needed to look at environmental aspects and ensure that the railway we build was not an impediment to what kenya is known for, so the environmental aspects were important. that is just one example because you will be attending the china—africa summit in the coming days in beijing and the point i make is that do you believe africa should better leverage its position with china and other investors like the united states? this is the whole objective. we are saying that africa is not the africa of yesteryears. we are a much more open society. we are much more democratic and all these issues, as you are asking today, all of the numbers, all the facts are out there.
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and what we are saying is that we want to get the best deals. and make sure you get the best dealfor the africans. will that be the nature of what you discuss with theresa may, the british prime minister, when you meet this week? absolutely. what is your message to her? we wish to say that we are keen on investment to help us fill our infrastructure gap. we are keen on investment that will partner in accordance to what the kenyan social economic demands are for our development, keen on health, keen on housing and keen for food security and on manufacturing to create jobs for our people. we are keen on leveraging notjust in terms of investment but also on our location, on the investment we have made in our young men and women who are ready to take on the world. so when you meet theresa may, the british prime minister, this week in nairobi,
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do you feel that post—brexit there is a greater or lesser chance for britain to assert itself in the african continent? i think that is the wrong question. we are not looking for britain to assert herself on the african continent. trade wise. we are looking for britain, we are looking for western europe, we are looking for eastern europe, we are looking for china, for america. but britain specifically... to look at the advantages that kenya has to offer. now, britain of course has an edge given our historical relationship in the past. britain has an advantage of leveraging both her knowledge of kenya and africa, her understanding, the historical and cultural ties that exist. but, also, leveraging on the commonwealth of which kenya is a member. to improve trade in and amongst member countries.
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so i think... so that is your message? the message we have is that all we are interested in are win—win proposals that enable all of us to take advantage of the opportunities that exist to create mutually beneficial prosperity. one issue i wish to raise is that it is the 20th anniversary of the august 7th bomb blast on the american embassies in tanzania and kenya. more than 220 people died, most of them kenyans, 5000 people were injured but this is what evanson gitu, from the bomb blast victims association of kenya has appealed to the us government to pay restitution to the victims. he says, "the lives of the kenyan victims have been shattered due to a lack of medication, proper care and livelihood". due to a lack of medication, proper care and livelihood." did you raise their plight,
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which is still ongoing 20 years since that happened, with president trump? i did not mention that issue in particular but it is an issue that we know have affected the lives of many families. terrorism has affected the lives of many thousands notjust in kenya but across the world. and we sympathise with the victims of the bombings in the nairobi embassy... but they need compensation, not sympathy. just as much as we sympathise with the situation that happened in westgate and other areas. and we are keen to see how we can work, especially with the us government, to see that these people are adequately compensated. and that we can't return what they lost. however i believe that we can and will continue to try to do more for families and for victims to ensure that we make their lives as easy as possible. this is an agenda that we are constantly putting across, going to the americans in the same
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manner that we are looking after the victims of other attacks that happened in the past. we would like to see the same happening for this group. in kenya you have outlined your big four agenda items — housing, health, infrastructure and food security. many people are concerned that you are not delivering on these objectives, largely because of the widespread rampant corruption that exists in your country at your own admission. people are quite sceptical in kenya that you are getting to the bottom of this. 0ne poll, ipsos, in august this year said that only 21% of people in kenya have confidence that you are tackling this. as i have said we have made it very clear that this is an animal that we intend to slay. this dragon, this beast called corruption is an animal we intend to slay. we have been working quietly over the last few years
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to strengthen our agencies that are involved in this particular fight. we have tried to go through and assess where the weakness is. we have worked in conjunction with various governments across the globe. they have given us the necessary technical support, they have given us the necessary training that we required to bring cases to conclusion. as a government, as an individual, i am committed to this fight. as you have seen over the last few months as we have gotten these new regenerated agencies working, cases are now being finalised a lot faster, being presented before court, and we are now looking forward to our courts to do their part to ensure that people in kenya and across the world realise that the age of impunity is over, to ensure that we are able to achieve. how soon do you think you can meet your objectives
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in tackling corruption? as far as i am concerned, and if you have been following media reports alone, the number of cases that are now before the courts of law in kenya are very many. many of them are people who nobody expected would ever appear before a court of law. what we are now looking forward to... no high—profile convictions though. that is what i am saying. what we are now looking forward to is our courts of law will also now do their part and expeditiously process these cases and convict in the shortest time possible. so we will hear about some of the big fish? you have already heard about them being presented before courts of law. that is what i am saying. what remains now is for our independent judiciary
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to do their work and bring justice for and on behalf of the people. you have 18 months from now until the next election campaigning starts and you can no longer run because you have had your two terms. you do not have that long. when do you think we might really see results? six months time? we are already seeing results. you are already seeing these people arraigned before court and what we are saying is that we are ready to support ourjudiciary in whatever manner that they desire as an independent institution to ensure that these cases are prosecuted as quickly as possible and justice is seen to be done. we are talking about millions and millions of dollars, for example from women's charities, from the national youth service, which is a government
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agency dedicated to tackling youth employment. in one recent scandal over toxic sugar that has been imported into kenya and it is the alleged that mps had been taking bribes to stop a report in parliament to stop the importation of toxic sugar. 0ne mp has said that this is, geoffrey godfrey 0sotsi says that the institution of parliament that is supposed to protect the public has turned against them. this is the kind of thing that's going on. and this is what we're saying. we are going to tackle, and we have begun tackling, regardless of who you are, and as i said, regardless of who you are... so even mps who might be taking bribes? even if you're my own family member, zeinab. i have said and i've made it very clear that agencies are free, and you have seen already a number, even of members of parliament who have been arrested by the eacc, which is our anticorruption commission, on charges that they,
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right, have abused their office or they've ta ken advantage of their office for personal gain. all right, you said... this is happening. these are things that are happening as we speak, zeinab. all right, you've said even members of your own family. yes, absolutely. i have to put it to you that in 2011, mr president, forbes magazine said that the kenyatta family are worth about $0.5 billion... mm—hm. and own a lot of land... mm—hm. and we know that figures, for example, tell us that 8500 people of kenya's 49 million citizens own two thirds of the country's wealth, and yourfamily is part of that 8500. how does that sit with your fight against corruption? as i have always stated, what we own, what we have is open to the public. as a public servant,
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i am supposed to make my wealth known, and we declare every year, and i have always said if there is an instance where somebody can say that what we have done or obtained has not been legitimate, say so. we are ready to face any court. furthermore, i have gone a stage further and said that going forward, we are in the process now of putting in place measures where every public servant's assets must be declared publicly, so that people can question and ask, "what is legitimate? " and if you can't explain yourself, including myself, then i have a case to answer. that's the lifestyle audit that you launched in june. yes. so that everyone in government... absolutely. all public servants will be asked to explain the source of their wealth. absolutely, including myself. including yourself, and all those who've plundered public office will be put to task to explain themselves. absolutely.
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but i put it to you that one mp, 0scar sudi, has said that he wants the lifestyle audit to include an inspection of the wealth acquired by your late father... perfect. kenya's founding president, jomo kenyatta. we can, we can even go back... would you do that? we can even go back to my grandfather, great—grandfather. .. so will you do that? no problem. because according to kenya's truth and reconciliation commission report in 2008 — it said this, and i quote — "jomo kenyatta himself appears to have benefited immensely from irregular allocations of land. by 1965, kenyatta is reported to have used his position as president to buy numerous settler farms". so you have said no sacred cows... the key word there is buy. but will you allow this lifestyle audit to investigate his historic acquisition... 100%. of wealth? perfectly welcome. you're going to do that? perfectly welcome. and you think that you will emerge... very confidently. very confident from that? absolutely. so no sacred cows?
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none. and have you, have you declared all this? i mean, you've done... we're waiting for the processes to be done, we have started with especially procurement officers, and we're going to until we get to my level. and is everything going to be made public? absolutely. so we know that — who has been put through this audit? absolutely. and is it underpinned by legislation? this is what we're hoping to work together with parliament to establish because already, that is done. but what we're saying is that at least for the executive, we will insist that if you want to continue serving, you must make it public. period. so it's notjust windowdressing? no, this is something i'm committed to, and it's something i am determined to leave as my legacy in this country. is that what you want your legacy to be? yes. the fight against corruption, and transparency and to ensure that the nation's resources are used in the best interests of the people of the republic.
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and talking about your legacy, we see what's happening in neighbouring uganda, where president museveni has changed the constitution. are there any circumstances in which you can foresee that you might stay on for another term or submit yourself to election for another term, because you have a two year term only? we work on the basis of our constitution. my predecessors all have functioned on that basis and i intend to follow suit. no circumstances whatsoever? even if the people demanded it in a referendum or something like that? there is, there is no provision in our constitution, yeah, for that. and we cannot on the one side say we're fighting impunity, and then we become, on the other hand, part and parcel of the same impunity that you've committed yourself to fighting. 0ne trend in kenyan politics that many observers have said is a blight on democracy in your country is the fact that people tend to vote along ethnic groups, and we saw what has happened
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in the last two elections — in 2008. when there was the terrible violence but also the contested election last year, when the opposition leader raila 0dinga went through the mock inauguration ceremony in february and then in march, there was this famous handshake between the two of you. what did that handshake denote? was just between two men or did it show that the two ethnic communities have come together? the handshake had nothing to do with the ethnic communities, because i myself got support from more than my community. the kikuyu. 0dinga got more votes also from more than his ethnic community. the handshake denoted that what we as political leaders are saying that regardless of our ethnic backgrounds, we do not want to allow and we will work together to ensure that going forward, political differences will never
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result in ethnic or religious animosity and we will go around the country and preach ideas are going to override personal interest. we are going to work together to fight the ills that face and challenge our society, such as corruption. it does not make a difference whatever your political or party affiliation is, corruption works against the entire country and it takes all of us to work against that. when it comes to unity, we want people to understand that they can make political choices, without fear of political ramifications because i decided to go one way or another. will you create a new government position for him? is that possible? why should we create a new position? there are no new positions
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in our government. we work according to our constitution. that does not mean we cannot partner in the development and in the unification of our people. as well as the president of kenya, you're also a leader of a very important country in east africa, and i put it to you that one issue that is in the news very much is the fate of the ugandan opposition mp, bobi wine, and i would like to know whether you have raised his plight with president museveni. he has now been released on bail on charges of treason. kenya is not a country that seeks to really interfere with other people's or other country's issues. even when he has just been beaten up? let me finish, zeinab. we are a country that encourage democratic processes, but we also understand that every country has their own challenge. what we would say is that what kenya would love to see is where political competition is allowed without intimidation,
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and we preach that message, but we say that where there are differences, please let us ensure that those differences do not result in violence. exactly what i said about raile 0dinga. so in short, ours is to encourage democracy and a peaceful solution to whatever differences may exist, but kenya does not interfere, just like we also are not keen on other people interfering in our own domestic issues, and what we encourage is internal resolution to internal problems. but the kenyan lawyers — national lawyers association has said it wants to bring bobi wine‘s case to the east african court because he was beaten up in detention. as you know, we allow our institutions and our organisation the freedom to push whatever agenda they have, and as to how they are going to pursue that, i would encourage you to ask them. this is how we intend
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to prosecute this case. president uhuru kenyatta, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you very much for having us. thank you very much indeed. there is a lot of fine weather to have across the british isles. a few showers possible vote in the west. 0ne showers possible vote in the west. one thing to note, though, when you're heading out the door, is it will be quite a cool start thanks to the clear skies overnight. some of the clear skies overnight. some of the scottish clans, north—east england, the pale green behind me, could be just three or four degrees as the day gets under way by the sunshine will get to work quickly and that's going to help the temperatures to recover. a little cloud bubbling up through the day turning the sunshine hazy, giving the odd light show in the west. but eventually temperatures peaking in the high teens to the north of the uk and in the low 20s further south. 0vernight thursday into friday at denmark of the cloud thinning, braking, clearing away, allowing
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temperatures to fall, we could look at rural lows of three or four degrees, these are the temperatures in towns and cities. 0n into friday and straightaway at change in the way the map looks behind me, because we have a more organised band of cloud to the west. it will bring some rain with it. most of it will run into the continent into france, we could pick up some showers for south—west england. 0verall friday i think hazy sunshine, a fine day, temperatures similar to today, high teens in the north, low 20s in the south. there is the weather front come friday night into saturday, dressed to the north of the british isles, bringing some rain briefly into scotland and northern ireland, quite a weakening —— weakening feature though by the startle the weekend. this is our saturday is shaping up, cloudy in the north and west, any rain will be drizzly and patchy, confined to higher ground. southern and eastern areas with the best of the sunshine and temperatures creeping further in the sunshine, 23, maybe even 2a degrees
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possible. for sunday, similar story. to the north and west, thicker cloud, on sunday the chance of rain possible in western scotland. southern and eastern areas still with the best of the sunshine and still getting the top temperatures. and if anything, come monday, we may just have a last dance with some if you like, temperatures in the north, this hot air in the south—east might even this hot air in the south—east might eve n ta ke this hot air in the south—east might even take us up to in the province of about 27 degrees somewhere across the south—east of england. that high, though, likely to be short lived, temperatures taper off as we move further into the week ahead. this is newsday, on the bbc. i'm rico hizon, in singapore. the headlines: russia rows back on controversial pension reforms. public pressure forces vladimir putin to think again. 0utrage from australia's aboriginal leaders, after former prime minister, tony abbott, is appointed special envoy on indigenous affairs. the community questions
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his track—record. i'm ben bland, in london. also in the programme: decades of conflict and thousands disappeared — one woman's search for truth in indian—administered kashmir. and women's wrestling conquers the world. we meet the new generation of wrestlers thrilling sell—out crowds.
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