secrets law are due to hear the verdict in their case. the reutersjournalists had bee investigating reports of a massacre of ten rohingya men, allegedly at the hands of buddhist villagers and the army. the un says migrants crossing the mediterranean sea face an increasingly deadlyjourney and calls on europe to do more to try to save lives. and there's another twist in the uk's brexit negotiations. the european union's chief brexit negotiator, michel barnier, says he strongly opposes parts of the british government's plan for the country's future relationship with the eu. britain's prime minister says she will not compromise. that's all. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk.

i'm stephen sackur. i'm stephen sackur. i'm in ramallah, more than five decades after the israeli occupation of the west bank began, to meet perhaps the most renowned palestinian artist of his generation, suleiman mansour. his paintings have come to define a sense of palestinian identity. but in places like this, in troubled times like these, does art really matter? i have a vision of what the painting should look like and then i keep trying until i have that image. and it does not come usually in the first instance. this is the first drive. the effect should show the

helplessness of the people and that is how i want this painting. but now this is how i feel, personally and how i think people are feeling. this isa how i think people are feeling. this is a dark, this is bleak, the mood and feel of your paintings has really changed. it has changed a lot. the big difference between these figures and the figures are used to do in the 70s and 805. in used to do in the 705 and 805. in depends on the situation, the political situation. i want to change another time because i like to make heroic paintings, to reach again that feeling of being hopeful and optimistic. suleiman mansour, welcome to

hardtalk. thank you. i want to begin at the beginning. you grew up with conflict and loss, with very difficult family circum5tance5. your father died when you were young. i am intrigued to know why painting? why art? what do you do it?” am intrigued to know why painting? why art? what do you do it? i had a kind of talent, that is one part, the other part is a hard life that made me kind of lonely and... loneliness gives you time for

yourself to work on your talent so i was yourself to work on your talent so i wa5 painting when i was five, six years wa5 painting when i was five, six yea r5 old and wa5 painting when i was five, six years old and could not leave the paintand paperand years old and could not leave the paint and paper and so on. also, i am intrigued by the timing. you were born one year before the creation of the state of israel which, of course, had a huge impact on the lives of all palestinians and then, through your adolescence and early adulthood, it is an experience in the run—up to the 67 war and then the run—up to the 67 war and then the occupation by the israeli military of east the occupation by the israeli military of ea5tjerusalem and the west ba n k military of ea5tjerusalem and the west bank and, of course east jerusalem is where you were leaving. what impacted that have upon you? did you see your future and your commitment in a different way? you have so many artists around you,

there was fighting, we were sure that palestine would be liberated. i felt that very strongly. listening to media, especially egyptian media. it was a shock for me and for all the people. we were occupied. i think at that time we did not think that the israelis would stay. we thought they would stay a couple of years and then we would have a kind of solution. at that time, also, we did not feel so much pale5tinian5. becau5e did not feel so much pale5tinian5. because all the childhood, adolescence, we were jordanians. you

are underjordanian rule. we felt like jordanians and this feeling are underjordanian rule. we felt likejordanian5 and this feeling of being palestinian wa5 likejordanian5 and this feeling of being palestinian was implemented after the israeli occupation. but projecting your artistic vi5ion after the israeli occupation. but projecting your artistic vision of what a palestinian identity was, doe5 what a palestinian identity was, does that make you a political artist? does it even at times make you a propagandi5t? artist? does it even at times make you a propagandist? sometimes maybe. at times. but all artists, musicians, literature people, we we re musicians, literature people, we were effect did by the political developments around and, for me, i wa nted developments around and, for me, i wanted to paint. what i felt is i cannot be into floral, i cannot

painta cannot be into floral, i cannot paint a nude figure. i am an artist, i have a message. that interesting, you never felt you could seek out and express beauty for its own sake. it always had to have a cause behind it. yes. always. always. i remember in1980, it. yes. always. always. i remember ini980, an it. yes. always. always. i remember in 1980, an israeli officer, me and another two colleagues, he said, by another two colleagues, he said, by a new painting political paintings? why do you paint flowers, and mood? and i would not buy it for you. —— a nude. from that time, i thought, this is a bad idea to make floral or anything like that. i wanted to do

something and it has to have a message. but does it have to have truth because, if we look at your paintings, generally your images are very positive, heroic image5 paintings, generally your images are very positive, heroic images of stead fa5t pale5tinian5. very positive, heroic images of steadfast pale5tinian5. is that really the truth of the way palestinians are or is that more propaganda notion to help the cause? pa rt propaganda notion to help the cause? part of it, yes. another part is i wa nt to part of it, yes. another part is i want to make a kind of idealistic idea of the palestinian land, the palestinian people and i paint what i want people to be. not what they.

ido i want people to be. not what they. i do not paint reali5tic ideas about life and people. if i make jerusalem, i take off many things of the roof of this beautiful city. a truck to make it idealistic. something very 5triking about your work is what happened during the first intifada in the late 19805 when eu and a group of other arti5t5, when eu and a group of other artists, you called it the ‘new vision‘ art movement, and he declared he would no longer buy art supplies and pain is from itself. you would be defined and create your materials for your palestinian art a5 materials for your palestinian art as part of the resistance. yes and it was an actually our idea it was the idea of the first intifada to

rely on our services and products. and we, as artists, u5e rely on our services and products. and we, as artists, use the same idea. why don‘t we do the same? so each one 5tarted idea. why don‘t we do the same? so each one started to search for materials that feat their personality... which brings us back to the soil, the land. and it also bring5 to the soil, the land. and it also brings us back to the childhood period were used to help my grandmother doing things from mud, like walls or up and is. —— overn5 wa nted like walls or up and is. —— overn5 wanted to work with mud. colour it with hannah and natural materials.

—— henna and started doing mud alone. the thing is, you still do it today and one of the things you are be5t today and one of the things you are best known for is your work in this clay that you incorporate with wood, and sometimes clay that you incorporate with wood, and 5ometime5ju5t clay that you incorporate with wood, and sometimes just clay but what is it about clay were used to work with that when you are no longer boycotting material5? that when you are no longer boycotting materials?” that when you are no longer boycotting materials? i like the cracks in the mud. the cracks symbolise a kind of feeling, not only with me but the palestinian people in general. it is a kind of... hope is lost, in a way, and

people are desperate and feel frustrated, also, the checkpoints — we have hundreds of checkpoints here and there — they have like separated people from each other... fragmentation. a fragmentation of society. a fragmentation of the ideal palestine, free from war. that i5 ideal palestine, free from war. that is why i still work with mud and i like the cracks in the mud which symbolise all these things. when we look at that huge canvas behind you, which is so much about heroic struggle and heroic individuals in palestine, do you feel in a way a

little embarra55ed palestine, do you feel in a way a little embarrassed by it, that it project5 image5 little embarrassed by it, that it project5 images which do not really match today‘5 reality? project5 images which do not really match today's reality? yes. in a way. but i was... i wanted to represent a certain time, from 19110 until 1992, through this painting, including the diaspora, including the resistance and then, just before the resistance and then, just before the oslo agreement and the hope was very highly among palestinians and wa nted very highly among palestinians and wanted to represent it, not only through figures and so on but also through figures and so on but also through the spirit of the time. talk

to me about the experience, the personal experience of being an arti5t living through palestinian history in the last 50 years. have you known fear? fear coming from your art you known fear? fear coming from yourartand you known fear? fear coming from your art and the position it put you in with the israelis? no, not really. i remember in 19811 wa5 no, not really. i remember in 19811 was imprisoned for a short time. but then i was called and he wanted to interrogate with me. but why did they interrogate you in the first place? no reason, no reason. iwas going with my family with the car andi going with my family with the car and i was photographing villages on the road to nablus. and they stopped

me, and they took the camera and the film. i stayed like two weeks in the present. —— pri5on. and after a while he asked me, who do you think you are? you know, everyone be‘5 writing about you, that you are in pri5on. who the hell are you? —— everybody‘s writing about you. i think they were afraid of taking to present a famous person, especially in cultural and art and so on. and you know, as i... did they ever try to ta ke you know, as i... did they ever try to take any of your cameras, your pictures? none. not only me, but every exhibition that we made, we

have soldiers coming in and taking paintings that they don‘t like. and the problem is they don‘t have a rule, you know? so if you have, like, kind of left wing soldiers come in, then the paintings are left there. but the right—wing soldier come5 there. but the right—wing soldier comes in, and half the walls are empty. we had in 1981, ithink, they made the rule that we can‘t paint with a red, green, black and white. the colours of the palestinian flag. the colours of the palestinian flag. and so we... every arti5t the colours of the palestinian flag. and so we... every artist was painting with red, green, black and white. let me ask you this. maybe it 5ound5 white. let me ask you this. maybe it

sounds like a stupid question, but do you think, looking back on your long career, that your art, your voice, your expression, may have taken a different path if you were not palestinian, if you hadn‘t been born into conflict and hostility, and this desire to express something about your people and their 5truggle? about your people and their struggle? i am sure that i would be a different arti5t, i‘m sure. struggle? i am sure that i would be a different artist, i'm sure. and do you feel in a way that your situation has trapped you, as an artist? yes, sometimes i feel i situation has trapped you, as an artist? yes, sometimes i feeli am trapped. but also i think i use it, ina way, trapped. but also i think i use it, in a way, because making political art, and sometimes it comes out truthful, from you inside, and sometimes you just want to make a nice palestinian painting to sell

it. idid nice palestinian painting to sell it. i did that, and many others did that also. it‘s like using the situation you are in, although you are trapped in it. interesting you talk about selling out, because of cour5e talk about selling out, because of course you are a professional artist. you have to make a living, you have to make money. for example, your most famous work, probably, is that one known as the camel of hardship, which actually you painted 5everal hardship, which actually you painted several times, one of which was bought by gaddafi, because he loved it, and it ended up being destroyed, but you painted again and i believe the later painting was sold in dubai for $250,000. but the subject was, again, it was an old man bearing the burden is, the steadfast palestinian, and it weaved in themes aboutjeru5alem and palestinian, and it weaved in themes about jerusalem and loss palestinian, and it weaved in themes

aboutjeru5alem and loss and all sort5 aboutjeru5alem and loss and all sorts of things. when it sold for that much money, did it make you feel 5trange? that much money, did it make you feel strange? not strange, you know. happy, maybe. buti feel strange? not strange, you know. happy, maybe. but i know that it‘s a unique painting and the unique subject, and it‘s very famous. and i don‘t think every painting i do will be sold at that amount. but this painting, i knew it will be sold for much money. and i wasn‘t surprised. it's much money. and i wasn‘t surprised. it‘s very hard to make value with art. 0nly it‘s very hard to make value with art. only the dealers and gallery people, who sometimes i work with,

they have a lot to do with this. let me ask you about israelis. you know, you have talked about israelis in your life experience, being soldiers who have raided your exhibitions, or who have raided your exhibitions, or who once briefly put you in prison. but you have come to know it is rarely others too. have you actively sought out collaboration with israeli artist? does that seem something important to you, or do you find that very difficult?m depends on the type. like from 1980 until 2004, i think, depends on the type. like from 1980 until2004, ithink, we depends on the type. like from 1980 until 2004, i think, we are in very good relationships, and we made lots ofjoint exhibitions. more than 30, 35 exhibitions together. mo5t ofjoint exhibitions. more than 30, 35 exhibitions together. most of

them under the title of down with 0ccupation, them under the title of down with occupation, and so on. now, today, it‘5 occupation, and so on. now, today, it‘s impossible to make a joint exhibition or to meet in ramallah, it‘5 exhibition or to meet in ramallah, it‘s very hard. but i hope things will change. and what of pressures from the palestinian side? 0ver recent yea r5, we from the palestinian side? 0ver recent years, we have seen hama5, for example, in power in gaza. not in the west bank, but in gaza. but clearly there are political divi5ions clearly there are political divisions within the life of the west bank, as well, and are hardliner5 who take a very tough 5tand hardliner5 who take a very tough stand on any relations with israel. do you feel tho5e pressure5 stand on any relations with israel. do you feel tho5e pressures from in5ide palestine too? there are perhap5 voices saying that you have been too close to israelis. you have been too close to israelis. you have been too close to israelis. you have been to coo operative. and i wonder

if that worries you, that trend? too co—operative. if that worries you, that trend? too co-operative. someone wrote in the newspapers and a magazine, and so on, and he felt that people in general are against these activities 110w. general are against these activities now. becau5e now it is hopele55. they feel that the israelis are u5ing they feel that the israelis are using these exhibitions to whitewash the occupation and to tell the whole world, look, there‘s no problem here. artists are working together. it is difficult when you say there i5 it is difficult when you say there is no chance of peace, is hopeless 110w. is no chance of peace, is hopeless now. it difficult for me then to look again at your own art, which is 5o look again at your own art, which is so full, much of it, of hope and idealism. have you lost that? are you a very different arti5t today,

do you think, from the man who painted 5ome do you think, from the man who painted some of these very famous it image5 going back to the 19705 and 19805? of image5 going back to the 19705 and 1980s? of course i am a different arti5t today. it is just i can‘t make heroic paintings like i used to do. i can‘t paint nice land5cape5, because everything is destroyed. people are depressed, they are... they are not like people in the 19705 and 19805. they are different. they are very much concerned with living, with money, and so on. the landscape is destroyed, building5, and so on. and you... given all of that that you see and feel around

you today, do you ever think to yourself, i don‘t want to paint any more? no, i haven't reached that situation yet. but the thing that i did for so many years, and situation yet. but the thing that i did forso many years, and i situation yet. but the thing that i did for so many years, and i can‘t do anything else —— it is the thing that i did. and i come every day to my studio, and i make ita point to come to my studio. even if i don‘t paint, or if i don‘t do any kind of art, iju5t sit paint, or if i don‘t do any kind of art, i just sit and paint, or if i don‘t do any kind of art, iju5t sit and read a book, or drink coffee, and so on. but i make ita drink coffee, and so on. but i make it a point that i should come here every day for seven hours. it is your life. that's my life. my studio, my work. and every now and then i make a painting. buti

will... i don‘t think i will reach that point where i say no, i don‘t wa nt to that point where i say no, i don‘t want to paint any more, or to stop painting. well, we thank you for inviting us into your studio today. thanks very much for being on hardtalk. it's a thanks very much for being on hardtalk. it‘s a real pleasure to be here, and to see some of your work. hello. that wasn‘t bad for the first weekend of september. summer warmth continuing for many of us, especially where you had the sunshine. temperatures into the mid—205 in the warmest places, but it is turning cooler this week as this weather front, a cold front, pushes 5outh across the uk in the next 48 hours. now, already, as monday begin5, northern ireland and north—west

scotland in the cooler air. under clear skies, 5ome 5pots will be as low as four or five degrees. and also a few single—figure temperatures in east anglia and south—east england, with one or two mist and fog patches to start the day. of course, skies have been clear here overnight. but our weather front has cloud from 5outh—west england, wales, the west midlands, northern england, into 5outhern and eastern scotland. some patchy rain, 5ome heavier bursts to begin the day in south—east scotland clearing away. any rain on the front, though, turning increasingly light in the afternoon, showery in nature. north, north—west scotland here with sunny spell5 and northern ireland, lighter wind5 than the weekend, so yes, it is cooler, but still pleasant in the sun. much cooler in eastern scotland, north—east england, where some patchy rain continues into the afternoon, compared with the weekend. some sunny spell5 developing in western counties of wales. the ea5t midlands, east anglia and south—east england with sunny spells, and you‘re on the one side of the weather front, so temperatures here still in the low and in some 5pots mid—205.

0ur weather front monday night into tuesday, this area of cloud barely budge5. hardly any rain on it, though. underneath it, temperatures are holding into double figures. but now most of scotland and northern ireland is on the colder side of the front, so temperatures regularly dipping down into single figures under clear skies on monday night into tuesday morning. and then on tuesday, here‘s our weather front, 5till barely budging from england and wales, 5till hardly any rain on it. maybe in the far south—east, still some sunny spells to be had, lifting temperatures into the low 205, whereas for most of us, we‘re in the mid—to—upper teen5. tuesday‘s a fairly quiet day, for many of us on wednesday too. though there may be some rain ju5t edging towards part5 of northern ireland and western scotland. as we go deeper into the week, it‘s looking increasingly likely as though our weather will be impacted by low pressure. but there is a lot of uncertainty about where the area of low pressure i5going to sit. this is thursday into friday. and because there‘s uncertainty about where it‘s going to be,

there‘s uncertainty about who‘5 going see the rain from it, so keep watching for the detail. we do know, though, this week is turning cooler, and there is the chance of rain both early in the week and then later in the week, as low pressure moves in. and that‘s your forecast. this is new5day, on the bbc. i‘m rico hizon in singapore. the headlines: the un warns migrants cro55ing the mediterranean sea to europe face an ever more deadlyjourney. i‘m babita sharma, in london. also in the programme: australia‘s population 5oar5 to 25 million people, hitting the milestone a quarter of a century earlier than predicted. and in singapore, the government comes up with a novel way of tackling its low birth rate — subsidised—speed dating. live from our studios in singapore and london,