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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  September 5, 2018 4:30am-5:01am BST

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the headlines: a new book by the veteran american journalist bob woodward offers a damning assessment of the trump presidency, a white house in a perpetual state of nervous breakdown as staff try to control the president's anger, hiding documents from him, ignoring some of his orders. a white house statement says they are fabricated stories from disgruntled former staff. president trump's latest nominee for the us supreme court, brett kava naugh, has stressed his belief in impartiality at a chaotic senate confirmation hearing. opponents believe he will make the supreme court substantially more conservative. he said it should never be viewed as a partisan institution. the strongest typhoon to hit japan in a quarter of a century has killed several people and injured more than 150. strong winds have battered the west of the country, and more than a million people have had to leave their homes. now it is time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk,
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i'm stephen sackur. in the turbulent recent history of the middle east, has there ever been a time when israel has seemed more powerful — militarily, diplomatically and economically? israel has the fulsome support of the trump administration, and it has common strategic interests with saudi arabia and arab nations preoccupied with perceived threats from iran. my guest today is israel's ambassador to the un, danny danon. is israel making wise choices from its position of strength? ambassador danny danon, welcome to hardtalk.
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thank you, stephen, for having me. well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. i want to begin with what i found rather extraordinary remarks from your prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, from your prime minister, benjamin neta nyahu, just from your prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, just a few days ago when he was visiting a nuclear plant, where he said this. he said in the middle east there is a simple truth. this is no place for the week. the week crumble, they are slaughtered and erased from history, while the strong, for good orfor ill, survive. that seems to be a message to the israeli people, to the world, that might is right. am i understanding him correctly? the
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prime minister was very clear. we live in a very tough neighbourhood. you just need to listen to our neighbours. you know, we can envy your neighbours in the uk, but when your neighbours in the uk, but when you listen to our neighbours from the north, you listen to hezbollah, you listen to the run—ins, to hamas, you listen to the run—ins, to hamas, you understand that they really mean it when they say that they want to kill the jews, they want to destruct israel —— iranians. it is not only cheap talk. they really mean it and they have the capabilities of threatening israel. that is why we will continue to seek peace, but at the same time we will continue to invest in our defence, in a security measures, to protect ourselves. we have no luxury to make a mistake on this issue. 0k, have no luxury to make a mistake on this issue. ok, but let's think about the context. there he is at the nuclear plants, we know it is the nuclear plants, we know it is the repository of israel's nuclear weapons arsenal, an arsenal which you will never disclose in public, but we all know it exists. you are the only nuclear power in the
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region. you have the strongest military of all of your neighbours, and there is benjamin netanyahu basically saying all that matters is military strength. stephen, israel isa military strength. stephen, israel is a peaceful nation. and when you look at stability in the region, when he seek stability in the region, israel is a beacon of stability in the region. so we will continue to be a place where we seek peace. we have a note... any intention to escalate anything in the middle east, and our neighbours know that. they should know at the same time that if they will try to pose a threat to our existence, we have the means to protect ourselves, and we will do whatever is necessary to protect the jewish and we will do whatever is necessary to protect thejewish people in israel. yes, but of course, many of the engagements and conflicts that we see israel occupied with are actually not about israel in an existential struggle for survival. in fact, quite the contrary. since march of this year we've seen five
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months of the israeli military lining up along the border with the gaza strip, using live fire ammunition against palestinian protesters. more than 165 have been killed, including 23 palestinians under the age of 18. i guess mr netanyahu just under the age of 18. i guess mr neta nyahu just regards that under the age of 18. i guess mr netanyahu just regards that as proof that the middle east is, again, quote, no place for the week. the week crumble and are slaughtered. and that is what israel is doing —— weak. i beg to differ with you. firstly, we speak about the threat, we speak about iran, which is a real threat to the middle east, not only to israel but also to the saudis, jordanians, egyptians, you name it. no, my question is not about iran. my no, my question is not about iran. my question is about civilian protesters in the gaza strip, who for many months have been processing along that or defence. they do not carry guns, admittedly some of them throw stones. they even fly kites with flaming torches on them at times. but what they do not have his
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guns, and the israeli military responds with live fire. guns, and the israeli military responds with live firelj guns, and the israeli military responds with live fire. i will get to that in a minute. the prime minister spoke about the threat, he spoke about iran. let's make it clear. now, regarding your questions, nobody was lining up at the border to harm peaceful civilians. that is not the fact. the fa ct civilians. that is not the fact. the fact is that you had 111,000 violent mob coming to the fence, with one intention. to bring down the fence, and then to march into thejewish communities next to our border. it was not a peaceful demonstration. that is a lie if you call it a peaceful demonstration, because in a peaceful demonstration, because in a peaceful demonstration, because in a peaceful demonstration you don't come with guns. we don't come with molotov cocktails. you come and you have a peaceful protest. this is not the case. it was orchestrated by hamas, and we did exactly what every other nation would do. we protected our border. you are sitting in new york, i am sitting in london. i'm inclined to take the word of a very experienced israeli human rights
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lawyer, who has looked at cases where the israeli military opened fire in the last five months, and he says it is quite clear lethal force against unarmed civilians who do not pose a danger is illegal, and this is the crux of many cases bear on the gaza border. he is an israeli lawyer, one of half a dozen human rights campaign groups who have filed cases against the idf in your country. with all due respect to all of those lawyers you just quoted, i ca re of those lawyers you just quoted, i care about the rights of the israelis who live in israel. and when you have 111,000 people marching to the fence, and they are saying we will come and we will take the house of the jews, they are saying it, will come and we will take the house of thejews, they are saying it, you have reports of hamas sending people to the fence and paying them to crash the fence. we cannot take any chances. let me ask you, what would you do if you had 111,000 of your
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enemy coming to your fence? what would you do then? you would protect your border. so we have no intention to harm anyone. we seek peace. and i wa nt to to harm anyone. we seek peace. and i want to remind you that 12 years ago, we pulled out from gaza completely. we took out all the so—called settlement out of gaza. we don't have occupation today in gaza. we don't have settlers in gaza. we don't have israeli troops in gaza. we pulled out. we demolished the houses. we even took the dead people out of the cemeteries. and instead of building a society that will thrive for our coexistence, that will build her economy, u nfortu nately will build her economy, unfortunately hamas took over and we see the results today, when they are digging tunnels and they are throwing rockets into our civilian cities. ambassador, you sit there at the united nations represent in israel, and you know, of course, the un general assembly voted, i think it was 120 — eight to condemn israel for its use of excessive force in the clashes we have seen in recent
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months. we have had the international criminal court saying that it wants a preliminary examination of what israel has been doing. we've had widespread condemnation from european leaders, many of whom regard themselves as close friends and partners of israel. what would you say, given all of that condemnation, what would you say that israel has achieved in those five months in which 170 palestinians have been killed? well, you can speak about achievements. we had no intentions to see the escalation of this, we said that very clearly. we seek peace, period. we protected our border. we had no intention to kill anyone, and you should ask the hamas what they achieved by sending innocent people, some of them were innocent, but most of them were members of hamas, and they claimed it themselves, that they claimed it themselves, that they sent them to the border. what do they achieve? and by the way, let's not forget the context, stephen. it all happened after the us administration decided to move
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the american embassy from tel aviv tojerusalem. and the american embassy from tel aviv to jerusalem. and the the american embassy from tel aviv tojerusalem. and the hamas leadership decided to contort the narrative, and instead of you covering the opening of the new empathy, everybody in the world cup of the riots on the fence. so it was orchestrated. they planned it, and it isa orchestrated. they planned it, and it is a pity that they used people's life in order to get broad attention. getting back to the question of what was the point, i mean, iam question of what was the point, i mean, i am very mindful that in recent days your defence minister is in essence been having to factor in negotiation with hamas, admittedly through a third party, the egyptians, looking for some sort of long—term truce arrangement, which according to the hebrew press could involve the wider reopening of the border crossings, we have seen some of that already, a resolution of the important issue of captive soldiers and missing people that israel wants
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returned, and then a wider agreement on infrastructure in gaza, foreign funding of sea ports and shipping lanes and all sorts of things. basically, you describe on the one hand hamas as an intolerable terrorist organisation intent of your destruction, and then after a flareup of violence, you end up talking to them and looking to do some sort of truce arrangement with them. it doesn't make sense. well, first of all, i invite you to the middle east. you will understand that many things don't make sense in our region. that's unfortunate, because you cannot predict everything that will happen with those people. if you got an elected government that is elected every four mackie is, you can have negotiations with. you are dealing with a terrorist organisation. they have a hidden agenda and sometimes eudunda what will happen tomorrow morning. no, but you do acknowledge, then, that all of this rhetoric around them being terrorist organisation that you will never talk to, and all of that, it is
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basically nonsense. after all of the violence which seen in recent months, you are talking to them, and there is an effort to get a long—term truce with hamas. there is an effort to get a long-term truce with hamas. so when you look at the region, not only about hamas, but we say very clearly, it will be peacefully in israel, it will be peacefully in gaza. the same goes for lebanon. if hezbollah will try to check our capabilities, it will not be peacefully in lebanon as well. but we have no reason to engage with hezbollah or with hamas. but they are the ones who are trying to send rockets, to dig tunnels, and we say this very clearly to our people who are in the area. if it will be quiet in israel, it will be quite in gaza. and by the way, we encourage humanitarian projects in gaza. we work with the eu, we work with the un, about those projects. we have our humanitarian needs as well, and you refer to the israeli boys who are being held by hamas. two israeli citizens and two israeli buddies of
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foreign soldiers. you havejust citizens and two israeli buddies of foreign soldiers. you have just made a point of saying israel compares about —— cares about the humanitarian situation. if that is true, why has israel and your prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, been so fulsome in support of the trump administration's decision to cut $350 million worth of assistance per year that was channelled to the un relief and works agency that specifically provides assistance to palestinian refugees? you in israel have been delighted by that, so where is your concern for palestinians' humanitarian needs in that case? first of all, we have to acknowledge the decision made by the us. they are the ones who are giving the funds, and i have heard ambassador haley speaking here in the un security council a few weeks
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ago about unra, and she said why are we paying so much money when all those countries who criticise the us don't give much money as well. it was a us decision, we respected. we think it was the right decision for the, what do you mean you respected? you were thrilled by it. mr netanyahu said this. let me finish. let me finish. we think it was the right decision because unra, instead of supporting the palestinians, they did something else. they kept in the same situation. they are not resettli ng same situation. they are not resettling the palestinians. they are not helping them. they, for example... you know, millions of palestinians who live today under the palestinian control. why unra should take care of those palestinians? why can't the us, the uk, the eu, the gulf countries, why can't they give money to the palestinian authority, and they should take care of the palestinians who live there? these are internationally recognised refugees, as the descendants of the original refugees, they have the same sorts of writers would be given under
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international law to afghan or burmese or somali or other refugees. and the truth is, as a member of unra has said in recent days, what you are trying to do in your support of this us decision, you are trying to airbrush out of history and out of the discourse more than 5 million individuals who, according to him, have inalienable rights, what rights you don't want to recognise. we can argue about those numbers. unra has a tendency to expand the number of refugees so they can get more funding from the international community. the main point is where they are heading. unra teach their children they should go back to their homes in jerusalem, children they should go back to their homes injerusalem, they are not helping the palestinians. we know it won't happen. instead of teaching them a profession and helping them bring a better future for their own people, they are
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actually helping the palestinians to continue with their victimhood approach. you cannot say victims for centuries. there are times we have to say let's move on, let's build our future. when he talked about you wanting to airbrush the palestinian refugees out of history and out discourse, that sounds pretty much like what you said to me. but i would say to you, the american praise, iam would say to you, the american praise, i am sure you do in new york city, be careful what you wish for. it could lead to massive new problems for israel is, if all of the human occurring assistance, education that was provided by unrwa to palestinians, if this is jeopardised as a result of this, in the words of lara friedman for the foundation of middle east peace, she says it is very clear that the overarching goal is to eliminate palestinian refugees as an issue, but the storm not make peace any
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easier, it will actually make it even more difficult. so, i want to surprise you that we encourage countries to support humanitarian projects in somalia and in gaza. we work in many countries on those projects. it doesn't have to go through unrwa. there are are other agencies, you have other means to support palestinians, we encourage it, but when you look at unrwa, the incitement at schools and the work they are doing there, we think it is about time to find another way that will actually help the palestinians and will not leave them where they are. i ask you how you regard israel's standing in the world, as you sit there representing israel at the united nations. another area of deep concern for many both inside and outside of israel in recent weeks has been the passage in the knessett in the nation ‘s state law,
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which enshrines the special status of israel as the historic homeland of israel as the historic homeland of the jewish people of israel as the historic homeland of thejewish people in your basic law. the european union, foreign affairs representative has expressed her deep concern. amnesty international has said it has entrenched 70 plus years of inequality. do you care? sure, we can. iam inequality. do you care? sure, we can. i am amazed, the un with so many resolutions and so much talk about israel, i don't recall in the un anybody discussing legislation in other countries. internal legislation, not the us, the uk or even the eu. when it comes to israel people have an obsession with every single thing that happens in israel. you have such a short memory? surely you remember during the apartheid yea rs you remember during the apartheid years in south africa, the
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international community was very preoccupied for the fight as what was widely regarded as justice in south africa. it is notjust israel. you cannot compare south africa to israel, even though our adversarial scum that is what they want to do. if you look at the arab israelis that live in israel, they are equal citizens of. israel the law doesn't change that at all. israel is a strong democracy, it will continue to bea strong democracy, it will continue to be a strong democracy and those arab members of the knesset who criticised the law, by the way, some of them even travelled to the un and the eu to criticise the legislation. kenyan imagine another democracy that would allow a member of come to the un and criticised the work of its own parliament, of its own government? it only shows how strong a democracy we are, even if you don't like it, even stronger than the chrissy in europe who criticise us. i believe we are a stronger
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democracy than those who criticise israel. it depends if you are listening to the substance of what these people are saying and how seriously do you take it. frankly, it isn't just arab—israeli politicians who are accusing the israeli government of racism, the leader, one of the leading figures in merritt said quite crudely and blu ntly in merritt said quite crudely and bluntly that this is a racist law. there are many israelis, we have seen them demonstrating in tel aviv and elsewhere who support that you. —— that views. and elsewhere who support that you. -- that views. i was a member of parliament and an used to that. the thought that the full —— the legislation, which talks about israel as ajewish legislation, which talks about israel as a jewish nation, our flag, our language, it allows minorities the same rights as everyone else. yes, israel is a jewish democracy. you can have that, there is no contradiction between a jewish and a
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democracy. there are 1.8 million arabs in israel, roughly 20% of the population, isn't it? when they read in your nation's state law, which is basic law, that the state views of the development ofjewish settlement asa the development ofjewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote it establishment, there is no doubt, surely in anybody‘s mind, that that creates two classes of citizen. jewish citizens and the rest of. no, thatis jewish citizens and the rest of. no, that is not the case. the same in minorities when they read the word of the national anthem of israel, it speaks about the jewish nation. of the national anthem of israel, it speaks about thejewish nation. when they offer their passport or id cards, they will seek a jewish symbol. they live in a jewish nation, they know that, but in this jewish nation they have full rights, elected to the knesset, they will sit in our supreme court, they will
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get the same education as my children get in israel. that is the meaning of equality but it is equality in a jewish nation. yes, israel is the homeland of thejewish people and it can be a jewish nation and democracy. some people want to change the character of israel as a jewish nation, but for us, since 1948, jewish nation, but for us, since 19118, we decided that israel will be ajewish democracy. 19118, we decided that israel will be a jewish democracy. a final point, we don't have much time. it strikes me in your three years or so in the un, yapping very quick to accuse many critics of israel of being racist. you said it about the motivations of the un humans rights chief, you have said it about other critics of israel. you even once said at about the 0bama administration. you think it devalu es administration. you think it devalues notions of anti—semitism and racism, to accuse those who simply oppose your government
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policies of being racist? first of all stephen, we are open for criticism. as a strong democracy we criticise one another all day long in israel, it is part of our life, and we welcome this as an. but when you responded to the abundant administration, when they were putting heavy pressure on the israeli administration in 2009 to stop putting new jewish israeli administration in 2009 to stop putting newjewish settlements and housing in eastjerusalem, you responded by saying president 0bama should not interfere with the rights of the jewish people to should not interfere with the rights of thejewish people to live in jerusalem, this is a quote, racist and manned. using president barack 0bama was a racist, anti—semitic? no, your quote is not accurate. when president 0bama criticised the rights of jews to president 0bama criticised the rights ofjews to build injerusalem and said thatjews should not be able to build in southernjerusalem,
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that was not acceptable by the majority of israelis. do you think barack 0bama majority of israelis. do you think ba rack 0bama was majority of israelis. do you think barack 0bama was and is a racist against israel? no. i think barack 0bama was and is a racist against israel? no. ithink he barack 0bama was and is a racist against israel? no. i think he made against israel? no. i think he made a mistake, a major one when he allowed the resolution to pass in december 2016 in the security council. it was a crucial mistake, a shameful resolution that they actually denied the connection between jewish people actually denied the connection betweenjewish people and actually denied the connection between jewish people and jerusalem andi between jewish people and jerusalem and i said quite clearly it was a shameful resolution. but when i blame people of anti—semitism here at the un, i do it when they are using different language, when they speak about israel. different criteria is when they deal with israel. can criticise israel, absolutely, but criticise only israel. when you look at the human rights council, when you speak about human rights violations in israel and spend minutes —— only a few minutes talking about human rights
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around the world, it doesn't make. this obsession, and when i see anti—semitism, i will call it. this obsession, and when i see anti-semitism, i will call it. we have to end at there. danny danon in new york city, i think it much for joining me on talk. thank you very much stephen. —— joining joining me on talk. thank you very much stephen. ——joining me joining me on talk. thank you very much stephen. —— joining me on hardtalk. hello again. well, if you're heading outside over the next few hours in england and wales, chances are it's going to be pretty cloudy, and that cloud will be thick enough for some rain from this weak weather front that we've got sat across the far east. otherwise, a few showers coming into western scotland from time to time over the next few hours, that rain mostly focused towards the eastern coast
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of norfolk and suffolk. that's where it's going to be at its heaviest. a lot of cloud for england and wales, but that's keeping the temperatures up. so, for the early rises, double—figure temperatures. it's not going to be too cold a start to the day. for scotland and northern ireland, chillier air here, but not as cold as it was last night. nevertheless, a cool start. but should see some early morning sunshine for scotland and northern ireland, before the cloud thickens up. and we'll start to see outbreaks of rain arriving through the afternoon, that rain turning progressively heavier, particularly across western scotland, turning wet too for northern ireland. england and wales for the most part, yes, it's a dry kind of day, cloud with us for most of the day, but there'll be some sunny spells coming through every now and then. temperatures high teens to low 20s. however, towards the end of the week it is going to get more unsettled. cooler and breezier, with rain at times too. here's the charts, then, for thursday. low pressure starts to form around about scotland, and that area of low pressure is going to be bringing fairly extensive outbreaks of rain across scotland, moving into northern england, and we'll see a weather front sliding its way in across wales, probably bringing some wet weather through thursday afternoon across parts of the midlands, and maybe southern counties of england as well. in between these areas,
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for the lucky few, we might actually stay dry, with some sunshine. but those temperatures will be edging down, so it will feel noticeably cooler, particularly so across the north of the uk. now, towards the end of the week, the jetstream pattern amplifies. now, if we were underneath this ridge, we'd have fine and dry weather, but we're not. we're underneath this trough, and within this trough, we get an area of low pressure spinning around like a washing machine, right over the top of the uk. that's through friday, and on into the weekend as well. so, as you can imagine, it is going to be quite an unsettled looking weather picture. now, for friday, we'll see pretty extensive rain across the northern half of the uk. there could be a few showers, though, even in the south. so an unsettled kind of day. quite breezy, quite cool as well, with temperatures coming down. we're looking at highs between 1a, maybe 19 degrees if we see some brighter weather in the south. it looks like it will continue to be unsettled, though, into the weekend, with heavy showers across the north of the uk. now, for england and wales, we'll probably see a belt of heavy rain working in across saturday,
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probably turning a bit drier and brighter by sunday. that's your weather. this is the briefing, i'm sally bundock. our top story: the race is on to stay alive. the world health organization finds a quarter of all adults don't take regular exercise, and could end up with heart disease and cancer. russian airstrikes on idlib, ahead of what could be the final battle of the war in syria. shedding light on crazy town. an investigation into donald trump's white house by veteran journalist bob woodward portrays an administration in chaos, with senior aides hiding important information from the president. tech giants pepare to face up to the us senate, as there are more concerns over the role of social media in spreading of political
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propaganda during elections.
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