with wind speeds up to 200km/h. so far one death has been reported, at a home in gadsen county. a chinese intelligence official has appeared in a us court on espionage charges. yanjun xu is accused of stealing sensitive trade secrets from an american aviation company. he's an official from china's ministry of state security. he was extradited to the us from belgium. president trump says he's had high—level talks with saudi officials about the disappearance of a prominent saudi journalist and government critic. jamal khashoggi was last seen entering the saudi consulate in istanbul last week, but was never seen leaving. newly—released cctv is said to show a saudi hit—squad arriving in turkey. now on bbc news, it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen

sackur. the saudi journalist to mile khashoggi disappeared after entering the saudi consulate in istanbul last week. amid a welter of speculation and lurid allegations, a cloud of suspicion now hangs over the saudi government. to put it bluntly, the record of crown prince mohammad bin salman suggests a ruthless determination to silence all criticism. my guests today are saudi academic madawi al—rasheed and former senior us diplomat nicholas burns. is the man known as m e s taking his kingdom down a dangerous path? madawi al—rasheed here in

london and nicholas burns from sta nford london and nicholas burns from stanford university in california, welcome both of you to hardtalk. we must begin with jamal khashoggi. he has not been seen since he walked into the saudi consulate in istanbul over one week ago. we do not know what has happened to him but how disturbed are you by the details of this case? i am very distressed and also worried about the hundreds of saudi dissidents and activists who had taken refuge in the west in canada, the us, here in britain and in many other countries, especially

in turkey. the situation has become extremely difficult for critics and peaceful protest is. feminist movement in saudi arabia since november 2017 almost 1500 people we re november 2017 almost 1500 people were detained according to mohammad bin salman himself. that this political crime, i would call it, is extremely worrying and shocking. political crime, i would call it, is extremely worrying and shockingm is difficult to call it a crime while we still truly do not know what has happened. nicholas burns, you are an experienced diplomat who served as the us ambassador. you served as the us ambassador. you served yet long years inside the us state department. how flagrant a violation would it be, if we were to pursue the line of speculation and believe the reports from turkish sources that something very bad happened to jamal khashoggi inside that consulate building? if the

reports are true and there is a lot coming out of turkey this morning, this would be murder. it would be murder by the government of saudi arabia by one of its citizens. jamal khashoggi is also a permanent resident of the united states, bert state of virginia, and is a columnist for the washington post. the american there is a direct interest in pressuring the saudi government to tell the truth over what happened. the denials by the saudi ambassador to the us can not be believed at this point and the saudi government has not offered any convincing a good stomach evidence as to what happened. i think that pressure from all world leaders including from the turkish president have to continue on the saudi government. is your reading of what you have seen donald trump has tweeted about it and stated he is talking about it. is it your reading of the reactions from washington that the us government is, indeed,

implying —— applying the pressure? it is. in a situation like this, the first reaction of the state department and the white house would be to contact the saudis. and this would have been days ago now, to try and find out what happened. you would do that privately in the best interests of the relationship. now you are seeing public statements by mike pompeo, by vice president pence and by donald trump, all asking the saudis to conduct a transparent investigation. nothing like that has happened. al vice president offered to the saudis publicly that we would have the fbi assist the saudi authorities in an investigation. the saudis have not set the mag accepted that offer. that is suspicious that if they want to conduct an internationally acceptable investigation. there is a limit to what we can say about this case because until more evidence comes

out we are, frankly, in the role of speculation. but you, madawi al—rasheed, ra saudi as indeed jamal khashoggi is. you are also a harsh critic at time of the government including the crown prince mohammad bin salman. does it surprise you that a man like jamal khashoggi, who had made a decision that he discussed on hardtalk not that long ago, to live in exile in washington, dc, does it surprise you that he felt confident enough to enter that consulate welding which is, under international rules, saudi territory. as an activist, as an academic who has written a lot of books that offer a different narrative from the official saudi propaganda, i would narrative from the official saudi propaganda, iwould never set narrative from the official saudi propaganda, i would never set foot ina saudi propaganda, i would never set foot in a saudi embassy, even if i wanted my passport to be renewed. since 2005, the saudis withdrew my nationality so i had no reason to go

to the saudi embassy or the consulate. it is difficult to see how jamal khashoggi believed consulate. it is difficult to see howjamal khashoggi believed he could be safe inside the saudi embassy. jamal khashoggi is not a typical dissident or opposition figure. he spent all his career working from within the corridors of power inside saudi arabia. he was close to the ex— director of intelligence in south —— saudi arabia. he was the adviser in washington when the prince was in a acid are there also in london. since he took residence in washington, he has never presented himself as a saudi opposition figure. he wanted to write and he claimed he could not ride in saudi arabia as he was suspended from writing in several newspapers there. he suddenly started writing, in one of the most

important newspapers on the hill. and he did indeed. iwould important newspapers on the hill. and he did indeed. i would like to pick that point with because it seems to me significant thatjamal khashoggi had a commentary platform in the washington post, one of the most influential newspapers in the united states. he chose to base himself in washington, dc were all the political lobbying and networking takes place. do you think it was his proximity to american power and the fears that saudis perhaps had it he had some leveraged and influence or some contacts with those in power in the united states that made him become such a figure of suspicion? he had been inside the saudi governance, as you mentioned, in times of the past. —— at times in the past. he turned against the saudi government was critical of the saudi government was critical of the saudi government was critical of the saudi government and that was he had to position himself inside the united states. the saudis are focused on their relationship with the united states, it is the most

important that they have. we are not allies but we are strong security parties and the saudis care about what the us thinks. and the washington post is even more influential now than it was in the past and the saudis bristle at criticism. it is the hallmark of mohammad bin salman, the crown prince. the outrageous house arrest of the prime minister of lebanon by the saudi crown prince. the outrageous claim arrest of saudi princes. the criticism of the canadian government, the jailing of female at the best. he has shown clearly that he does not look any criticism inside, or in this case outside, saudi arabia. outsiders this determination of the saudi government to suppress dissent go? i am thinking of particular cases, one of the leading saudi women's rights activists, who was picked up on the

streets of the united arab emirates and transported in handcuffs by —— to saudi arabia. we had reports of the canadian blogger whose youtube videos were critical of saudi arabia, saying that his family members including brothers back home in saudi arabia wearing prison. my question to you, madawi al—rasheed, is how determined you think the saudi saudi art from reach dissent —— how determined you think the saudis are to you cease dissension? we are entering a new phase where mohammad bin salman is determined to show he can reach everybody outside the borders of saudi arabia. does that leave you personally fearful in a way that you may not have been a decade ago? yes. in the past, people who had critical opinions were tolerated in some ways as long as they did not mobilise people inside

saudi arabia. if you criticise the government, you are ignored if you are outside but as long as you can call on people to act on this grievance, whether they be the detention of human rights activists, lawyers, intellectuals and academics, you were left alone. of course various, now, with social media, threats. everyday a lot of saudi opposition figures and even academics like myself, we receive threats on twitter that mohammad bin salman can get you wherever you are. this is social media, nobody knows where it is coming from but we do ta ke where it is coming from but we do take notice of that. i would like to ta ke take notice of that. i would like to take a step back for a moment because it is important to remember that just 18 months because it is important to remember thatjust 18 months ago the world was so thatjust 18 months ago the world was so excited about this man, mohammad bin salman. 32 years old, in effect put in charge of the world ‘s most oil—rich kingdom, a key strategic player in the middle east and he came to power pledging

reforms, saying he was going to be a dynamic reformer of the saudi economy. he was going to moderate the religious control of the nation, to change saudi arabia's religious leanings, and he was going to free up leanings, and he was going to free up the society. free up women to drive, open cinemas caer modernise the kingdom. and he was welcomed by saudis. that is important to remember, isn't it? absolutely. welcomed by western governments including the british government. i remember reading 18 months ago, article after article in the most respectable newspapers such as the new york times, the washington coast, the guardian, the times, the bbc, saying that this is a liberal reformer. there was a headline, revealing saudis bring. nobody actually wanted to listen to other voices in this narrative. it was almost unbelievable that a person

who put so many people in prison that it yes, you can have a circus in the country but if you put all the activist imprisoned, he promised to have moderate islam when he imprisoned so many religious scholars and clerics. if you want moderate islam you should have a debate and open debate about where we went wrong in our islamic interpretations and what we should promote, rather than just silent everybody and put them in prison. women's movement, the women who campaignfordriving, women's movement, the women who campaign for driving, they are now in prison, like you said. there are women who had been campaigning since the 1990s. there was a grandmother in her 70s who is in prison at the moment. to be fair to him, he has delivered on women being able to drive in the kingdom now. a key symbolic reform. he has also offered —— opened cinemas and a loud music concerts to take place. is talking about building fantastic new cities like the neon project which will be

open to tourism, giving saudi arabia and you face to the world. this does matter, particularly to young saudis, doesn't it? of course. if you start the young population of the basic freedoms such as sitting ina the basic freedoms such as sitting in a cafe and watching a cinema, going to the theatre, and you give them that, people were misled, thinking that this is what it is all about, about opening society and that kind of so—called reform... so—called reform? that kind of so—called reform... so—called reform ? it that kind of so—called reform... so—called reform? it is real reform. it isa so—called reform? it is real reform. it is a circus in a dictatorship. does not mean that people are free. it does not mean that people are safe to go to the circus or what kind of theatre are you going to watch? so, basicallyi kind of theatre are you going to watch? so, basically i agree with you that very is a strong drive towards having some kind of personal freedom but the basic freedom of being able to open your mouth and

actually voiced an opinion, especially when certain changes are taking place in the country, when you can not do that, i not call that reform. 0ne you can not do that, i not call that reform. one example about the celebrated ipo, the flotation of the oil company in saudi arabia. to map with his vision 2030 promise that he would do 5% of that oil company. the world thought that this was an opportunity but, of course, it did not happen. he changed his mind and said it is put on hold. there is an economist who is very clever, he was actually planning to go to the us and doa actually planning to go to the us and do a ph.d., he wrote a critical tweed saying that this is not a good idea, that the ipo of the oil company. he has been imprisoned since november 2017. lets return, nick vernons, if we

may, to mbs himself, and it is important to think from washington's point of view, in the years that you area point of view, in the years that you are a very senior point of view, in the years that you are a very senior figure in the state department there was deep concern about the degree to which saudi arabia was exporting wahabi religious ideology which was encouraging dangerous extremism in many other parts of the world, where saudi resources were being invested in mosques and madras is and what have you. and mbs addressed all of this, and he said the bloomberg just a few months ago, we are trying to get rid of extremism and terrorism. without a civil war in our country, without stopping the country from growing, and with continuous progress in all elements. and yes, he said, with regard to human rights, if there is a small price to pay in that area, is it —— it is better than paying a very big debt to make that move. now, surely in washington there is still sympathy with that sentiment. well, you know,

the saudis have always had a great deal of support in washington, because the saudis have been in the vanguard of trying to contain iranian power. that has been a priority for the united states going back to the 19705, to the iranian revolution. the saudis more recently, under mbs, have grown closer to israel. the saudis now enjoy with israel and duet and other countries in the gulf, the best relationship in terms of intelligence that they have ever had. and so you have seen these substantial changes in the mohammad bin salman. but at the same time, stephen, i think that there is growing impatience and now outright anger in both of our political parties in washington and inside the trump administration over what appears to be an entirely reckless, inhumane, b steel act by the saudi government, to kill one of its own critics. you couple that with the problem that the saudis have caused

and the ammar artie i5 problem that the saudis have caused and the ammar artie is by prosecuting this girl considered, very —— ill considered, very the united states are on the verge ofa the united states are on the verge of a major debate, and if the saudis cannot develop a convincing narrative of what happened to mr khashoggi, i think both political parties will be in rebellion against the saudis. you will see criticism you have not seen before. you may even see an end to the american arm5 provisions to the saudis on yemen, which i think would be the right move. well, interesting you should 5ay move. well, interesting you should say that, i was just looking this morning at the figures. in the last year, american arms morning at the figures. in the last year, american arm5 export5 morning at the figures. in the last year, american arm5 exports to saudi arabia worth some $18 billion, saudi arabia, i think, arabia worth some $18 billion, saudi arabia, ithink, takes arabia worth some $18 billion, saudi arabia, i think, takes more arm5 than virtually any other country in the world from the united dates. it represents 20% of all us arm5 export5 represents 20% of all us arm5 exports and 60% of saudi arm5 imports. that relationship is so important to both sides that i am

5ceptical a5 important to both sides that i am 5ceptical as to whether your belief that the congress, for example, is now going to ask really difficult que5tion5 now going to ask really difficult questions of saudi arabia — i5 now going to ask really difficult questions of saudi arabia — is that really going to happen? well, you know, we're not going to end our relationship, the united states, with the saudi government. because there is so much riding on the containment of iran. but i do think two things may happen. 0ne containment of iran. but i do think two things may happen. one is you might see, i think you should see, if this 5ordid drama continues, if there are no answers from rear that are convincing, unprecedented criticism from the united states against the saudi authorities, number one —— riyadh. and that is going to be a problem for mohammad bin salman, because as you know, there is a lot of controversy within saudi arabia about his rule, about whether or not he is actually strengthening saudi influence around the world or weakening it. that is the world or weakening it. that is the first thing that could happen. second, there are many members of congress who are disturbed by the use of american weapons, by the

saudi authorities in yemen, that have been directed into civilian areas. there has been a tremendous lo55 areas. there has been a tremendous loss of life, there have been cholera outbreaks. it is a great humanitarian crisis. and i don't know how long the trump administration is going to be able to justify the transfer of weapons to justify the transfer of weapons to saudi arabia for that war, which has been so destabilising on the arabian peninsula. madawi al—rasheed, we have talked at some length about the number of prisoners that mbs has locked up for dissent, i think you put the peak dollar figure in the thousands. included in that number, at least for a while, we re that number, at least for a while, were some very senior that number, at least for a while, were some very senior members of the family and close associates of the family, some of whom were famously locked up in the ritz carlton, including one of saudi arabia's biggest i5 including one of saudi arabia's biggest is this man. nicholas burn5 asked an interesting question about ju5t asked an interesting question about just how secure mbs's grip on power

is. what do you think? well, secure crown prince who had already guaranteed that he is going to be the future king of saudi arabia would not actually behave in the way mohammad bin salman had behaved, especially towards own cousins. in addition to him, there was an important person who was the head of the national guard in saudi arabia. he had a military base. one of the mo5t he had a military base. one of the most important security officials in the country. yes, absolutely, and the country. yes, absolutely, and the national guard wa5 the country. yes, absolutely, and the national guard was in charge of protecting the royal household and the oil in5tallation5. if mohammad bin salman i5 the oil in5tallation5. if mohammad bin salman is secure in his po5ition, bin salman is secure in his position, he wouldn't really re5ort to these kind of erratic at. the war in yemen, it's been going on for almost like four years. and we have seen no almost like four years. and we have seen no end to the bombing, u5ing western military equipment, and also expertise. let's not forget, there are people from the united states

and from the military in britain on the ground in saudi arabia, and we have heard that, without us and uk support, this war in yemen would not continue. but it is precisely because the saudi government continues to frame that war in the wider context of a struggle within the region, within the middle east, between saudi arabia and its allies and the iranians, a framework which frankly gained a lot of traction in the us and western countries. that i5 the us and western countries. that is why they have been able to continue to prosecute this war. well, u nfortu nately continue to prosecute this war. well, unfortunately saudi arabia i5 seen as a well, unfortunately saudi arabia i5 seen as a shield against iran. in fa ct, seen as a shield against iran. in fact, iran, yes, it has intervened in arab countries, it has militia on the ground, it has supported groups in lebanon, in iraq and syria and elsewhere. at the argument that we can tolerate a repressive regime that has actually gone out of its weight to kidnap prime ministers, like the prime minister of lebanon, put him under house arrest, forced

to resign, to de5tabilise yet another country in the east, and passivity properly and other immigration and refugee cri5i5 —— precipitate probably another immigration and refugee cri5i5, precipitate probably another immigration and refugee crisis, to go that far without actually the us, the main protector of the saudi monarchy, putting certain conditions on its unequivocal, unconditional support, is unbelievable. we have two end in a moment. nicholas burns, iam going two end in a moment. nicholas burns, i am going to turn it back to you. you have talked about the strategic importance of saudi arabia. if we look at it on one level today, we see one ruler, let's call him the ruler, mbs, who isjust 33 years old, he controls pretty much all the lead to make levers of power, as far as we can tell, and saudi arabia remains of lastly wealthy oil—rich nation, which matters perhaps more than any other for the strategic balance in the middle east, it is very ha rd to balance in the middle east, it is very hard to imagine the united states wa nts very hard to imagine the united states wants to see or prompt instability in saudi arabia. the

last thing the united states would wa nt to last thing the united states would want to see, and i think the rest of the world, certainly the arab world, would be instability in saudi arabia. stephen, think we are looking at almost shakespearean drama here. you can see the promise of reform and the acts of reform by the saudi crown prince that will ta ke the saudi crown prince that will take saudi arabia followed, and then you see a dark side. you see the paranoia. you see the sense of vengeance. paranoia. you see the sense of vengeance. you paranoia. you see the sense of vengeance. you see paranoia. you see the sense of vengeance. you see this unbelievable violence inside the country, and the rest of saudi citizens, and the exile of other saudis —— the arrest. and it is unclear which way this is going to turn out, which way will this young man turned. but certainly the khashoggi event, if it is true he was murdered, this is going to be a watershed moment the inside saudi arabia and for those countries around the world that have closed relations with the kingdom. madawi, you have been hoping for some kind of change in saudi arabia for a long

time. do you see this as a watershed moment? not under the leadership of mohammad bin salman. i have lost hope that there is scope for reform in saudi arabia, simply because we have heard the story of reform for several decades, and the more it reforms, the more it stays the same. and in fact, we are seeing worse scenarios. madawi al-rasheed here in london and nick burns, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. hello. wednesday brought some unseasonably warm if somewhat breezy weather to the shores of the uk. a big contrast with what we saw piling into florida, into the panhandle here. we saw hurricane—force winds, torrential rain, and a big storm surge around the coast thanks to category 4 hurricane michael. that system, now moving over land, will start to weaken significantly, but it's still going to bring a lot of rainfall, particularly to the carolinas and parts of virginia, before eventually weakening into an area of low pressure that pulls offshore into the atlantic by friday.

back closer to home, and for us today, quite a mixture, actually. some showers around in the east first thing, rain coming into the west, and decent sunshine between times. breezy, but not quite as warm as yesterday. but it will still be mild first thing, and our temperatures look like the figures we'd typically expect in the afternoons at this time of year. there are the showers across eastern england first thing. i think they'll quickly move off into the north sea. into the west, though, some wet weather for the start of the day for the south—west of england, for south wales. also for western scotland, some showers around initially, and then more persistent rain, really, as the afternoon wears on. central and eastern areas may escape, then, with a fine day, east anglia and the south—east of england, for example, and there will be some sunshine behind the rain for wales and the south—west of england. still getting up to 22, 23 in the south—east, cooler to the west of this front. some showery outbreaks of rain for central and eastern england out of the tail end of that front thursday evening. some heavier rain pushing north across scotland, and then look out towards

the south—west, because this really is the low to watch. now, this is callum. it's a named storm, it's a very deep area of low pressure, it's been named by met. and, as it rolls across the uk on friday, we can expect gale—force winds, with severe gales in exposure. gusts in excess of 70 mph, likely to be damaging winds. some pretty heavy rain piling into the west through friday, as well. again, eastern areas definitely spared the wet weather, i think, for much of the day. but that wind is going to be the biggest problem, in association with this system on friday. still quite mild, even warm in the east, temperatures 19, 20, but much cooler weather eventually coming in behind callum. we've still got the trail of the weather front behind that system, though, with us for saturday. so some quite wet weather towards the north and west, pulling away at the moment, it looks like, eastwards for sunday. that should be the drier and brighter day of the two this weekend. still, though, a lot of uncertainty in the detail. it will be worth keeping regularly up—to—date with the forecast.

this is the briefing — i'm sally bundock. our top story: it's one of the most powerful storms in decades. hurricane michael strikes florida, and moves swiftly inland — one person has been killed. new evidence emerges about missing saudi journalist jamal khashoggi. president trump says he's asked top saudi officials for answers. extradited from belgium — a chinese intelligence officer appears in an american court charged with spying. in business briefing, tech turmoil. global markets slump as investors dump technology shares. the nasdaq suffers its biggest drop in seven years. also in business briefing, the head of the world bank has been