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welcome to hardtalk, i am stephen sackur. after months of posturing and prevaricating, the brexit endgame is under way. this is the week the uk government and the eu 27 earmarked for agreeing a deal on the divorce and outlining a future close relationship. but on the eve of another eu summit, there is still talk of an impasse, focusing on the irish border and northern ireland's status post—brexit. my guest today is mairead mcguinness, irish mep and vice president of the european parliament. is brexit about to get very messy and very costly? mairead mcguinness, welcome to hardtalk.

glad to be here. are you surprised that after a year and a half of intense negotiation between the uk and the eu officials, here we are with this endgame that ijust described under way and it seems the issue of the irish border and the post— brexit status of northern ireland are obstacles that cannot be overcome. i am disappointed. maybe i am not surprised. but i am not without hope. let me take this because everyone is anxious about what didn't happen at the weekend. what is happening is talks are continuing. so there is no sense

that there is a breakdown. but there is an impasse. and it's not surprising that the issue of northern ireland and the island ireland is that the issue has to be completed on. because remember it is not just the completed on. because remember it is notjust the eu or me as an irish mep or the irish government insisting on this, the uk, the prime minister signed up to a commitment that there would be no hard border, no return to the past on the island of ireland, repeated that in march, there is a text on the table, a d raft there is a text on the table, a draft withdrawal divorce agreement if you like and the incomplete parts are around northern ireland. what has troubled me i have to say is normally when we negotiate at the eu level, papers produced, i don't like what's on your table but i will propose changes and guess what, you won't agree with them, but you take some on—board. that has not happened in these negotiations. what is happening and this is the troubling pa rt happening and this is the troubling part that i hope we can get over, it is that the uk side, and it is their

right to do this, have said we don't like the northern ireland agreement. we are proposing in the future relationship we will agree to this if you like, time—limit customs arrangement, temporary customs arrangement, temporary customs arrangement, and in a way trying to reverse the future into the present. ifiam reverse the future into the present. if i am making sense. it is complicated. you are making sense. i am aware that for people in britain and around the world there is a great deal of complication here. if iam great deal of complication here. if i am picked it what you seem to be saying is that the british government led by theresa may is reneging on promises made when it comes to the so—called irish backstop. if i want to use that word i would but i am not. i don't think she has delivered yet on promises made. that is a step from saying shias rotary. i understand the pressure she is under. we are not blind to the politics of the conservative party. i am not blind to the fact that the dup is propping up to the fact that the dup is propping up the conservative government. there is a budget vote on the 29th

of october. i am not blind from this as well, i come from a border county in northern ireland. in my constituency... all of the counties along the border with northern ireland, they are the people i represent. i drive through the northern ireland. it is my territory if you like. i remember my teenage yea rs if you like. i remember my teenage years and younger when it was not a nice place to be. and therefore i think those of us who know the value of 20 years of peace and togetherness that isn't complete, but we get on, there is great community spirit, don't want it impacted negatively by brexit. right, but on the other side of that northern irish conflict that you allude to, the union aside, there is an absolutely implacable opposition to the notion that northern ireland could ever be regulated in a different way, have completely different way, have completely different economic rules and different economic rules and different jurisdiction from different economic rules and differentjurisdiction from the rest of the united kingdom. they say that's driving a wedge, an unacceptable wedge, between their province and the rest of the uk. it

cannot happen, and as a result of the position that your government and others are taking in these brexit negotiations, sammy wilson of the dup has just brexit negotiations, sammy wilson of the dup hasjust said that in his view and no—deal brexit is now probably inevitable. yes, well, ifi wa nt to probably inevitable. yes, well, ifi want to rise to the rhetoric of the dup and the gentleman sammy wilson with blood red lines and others like that, i could do it but it won't make progress. let me pull this back much further. the people of northern ireland did not vote to leave the european union. the uk collectively did. northern ireland is a sovereign territory of the united kingdom. did. northern ireland is a sovereign territory of the united kingdomm might bea territory of the united kingdomm might be a red herring to you. to the people of northern ireland it is not a red herring. it is a fact. however we have to respect the collective uk vote. some of the farmers for example, and i know this industry really well, who voted to leave, now are coming to me to say

that they want me to make sure that their land can be sold into france and the milk they produce is eu milk. there is an element of people not understanding what the vote did to the relationship with the european union. i also would say that within unionism there is also a desire not to have a hard border. what's lacking is an understanding of, where there is no deal or a bad deal, if we don't respect what's in the withdrawal agreement, which frankly is what is missing in the understanding, no one wants to use the backstop, but we need it as an insurance policy. we hope that if the backstop is agreed, the withdrawal agreement in its entirety, march comes, the uk leaves, i regret that, but the uk leaves, i regret that, but the uk leaves, then we have a transition when we come to this future relationship on trade, on standards, which is so if you like close and effective, the backstop is not needed. those are very mullioned words but here are some less emollient words from boris johnson... emollient words from boris johnson. .. he is emollient words from boris johnson... he is not in cabinet emollient words from boris johnson. .. he is not in cabinet any more. “— johnson. .. he is not in cabinet any more. —— emollient. he is a journalist. i can say this and i will let you go. i have to say this. he was a journalist. i was one as

well. when i became a politician i let my journalism well. when i became a politician i let myjournalism behind. i am afraid he is acting as a journalist not responsible politician. he has been very a motive in some of the language he has used around ireland andindeed language he has used around ireland and indeed very unhelpful.“ language he has used around ireland and indeed very unhelpful. if you say as you did earlier in the interview you would like to take some of the heat out of conversation and just focus on what is achievable than perhaps what you have just said is not really helpful. he is not one of the negotiators in the british cabinet. no, he has a important role to play in the conservative party. the uk prime minister... what he said is important and you need to respond to it. i will. he said the eu has pushed us around for too long, treating us with naked contempt. they present us with a choice between the breakup of this country or the subjugation of this country. it is a choice between two exquisitely embarrassing humiliation. that is borisjohnson‘s position and the position of very many influential voices inside the conservative party, possibly voices

that are sufficient in number to dictate what theresa may has to do in the future. don't you need to show some empathy for the feelings they have particularly on this issue of northern ireland? in terms of empathy, i get empathy are great deal, but when you say to me that borisjohnson, who deal, but when you say to me that boris johnson, who is deal, but when you say to me that borisjohnson, who is from a very large member state, and this is what has troubled me about brexit from the get go. i am from a small country. we know our size and influence. i am surprised the uk that for all of its size and greatness is so, if you like, under threat that it feels europe is pushing it about. i mean, that is an extraordinary statement for boris johnson to make. the european union, for all its flaws, works on the basis that around the table — remember, i come from a member state. we have argy bargy. but we respect each other‘s position. we know that we have to compromise and move forward. what i would like to see from those of the boris johnson team, andi see from those of the boris johnson team, and i am not sure of the full numbers. you would have the facts on

that. what do they propose other than walk away? when you walk away, nothing is achieved. it might satisfy that innate "give someone a kick" but it doesn't solve problems for british business, supply chain oi’ for british business, supply chain or the food industry. we will get to that in a moment. if i may, continue the thought about boris johnson's passion as it was expressed in that recent newspaper column, what he is getting at is that, for his party, which after all is called the conservative and unionist party, there is something fundamental at sta ke, there is something fundamental at stake, which is ensuring the continued unity of the united kingdom, and they look at what comes out of your own country, ireland, when it comes to an analysis of where brexit is, and they listen to state m e nts where brexit is, and they listen to statements like the one from the leader of your party, the other day when he said ourjob as an irish government is to look out for the interests of the entire ireland of ireland, he said we are the party of

europe and we are the united ireland party and it sounds to some conservative and unionist politicians as though you have an agenda in your party and your country which is to see what's in brexit as a prelude to irish unification. but brexit has nothing to do with all of that. the reason why ireland and my leader has a role to play in relation to the north of ireland is because of the good friday agreement. i mean, all governments have a role to play in this. because northern ireland is a unique entity. we have fired violence that i mention from might own childhood. we have had piece for 20 years. we have tried to build bridges between communities. in a way we are very divided. and sadly because of brexit those divisions are beginning again. it very clear, just on the united ireland, that can only happen with the will of the people of northern ireland. and the island of ireland. it is not on the agenda now. not gel —— and i

think... again the conservative and unionist politicians i talk of feel that it unionist politicians i talk of feel thatitis unionist politicians i talk of feel that it is being put on the agenda in ireland. let me quote marylou mcdonald just today the leader of sinn fein has said that if there is an no—deal brexit, as far as she is concerned, the damage will be so severe to all the people of ireland we will not stand idly by, there will have to be our border across border poll on unification. but it doesn't matter what the leader of sinn fein says, the truth and the reality of a border has to be called by the secretary of state in the north of ireland. nobody else can do that. and the sad part about today's politics in the ireland is there is no government. sinn fein and the dup could not see a way to sit down and have a government that had a voice in the brexit discussions and that both in fact are using brexit in a

most inappropriate way and not in the best interest of peace and prosperity on our island and ongoing cooperation. on the other hand i respect where the dup come from and others in the unionist community. and at the risk of repeating it again, this word annexation of northern ireland, this is not what this is about. what we are trying to do is minimise the damage. because brexit will damage ireland, the uk, europe and northern ireland, so it is to try to find a mechanism to minimise that damage and that is my political priority in all of this. minimise that damage and that is my political priority in all of thislj don't political priority in all of this.” don't want to spend the entire interview on this. i want to have some answers and move on. if there is no deal is they're bound to be a ha rd is no deal is they're bound to be a hard border between your country, the republic of ireland and northern ireland? we said we won't construct a hardboard and the british have said the same so that is the position for now. you see, many others have said there is bound to bea others have said there is bound to be a hard border because wto rules will require it. i certainly will

not vote for anything that would result in a hard border on the island of ireland because it would bea island of ireland because it would be a generation backwards. in that case you are saying the same thing as the brexiteers in the uk who are saying that many people talking about the necessity of a hard border in the case of a no deal or indeed a trade deal are talking rubbish. there are all sorts of technologies and instruments which make a smooth, frictionless border possible. except we don't have it yet. i listen to those arguments around technology. and if i may. those arguments around technology. and ifi may. you those arguments around technology. and if i may. you said you wouldn't support the putting up of customs posts. this isn'tjust about structures and technology. this is about the psychology of that region. remember that history takes a long time to heal. and indeed this week in the parliament we will have victims of terrorists coming to talk to us. and the uncertainty that brexit has caused has hurt a lot of people again. no one believes we are going to go back to those awful days, but we are going backwards in

terms of relationships and none of us terms of relationships and none of us want that. so i work very well with my dup colleagues in the european parliament. to paraphrase what you are saying there are present dangers, security risks, if there is an no—deal brexit and if there is an no—deal brexit and if there has to be some form of restored border. i'm reluctant to use your words, and i try to explain this to david davis at one meeting when he was part of the brexit negotiations, to understand the psychological impact of brexit, you have to be there, live there and lived and know what's happened. i think that's part of the discussion that people aren't hearing. you have to obviously respect different views on this, but at some point when languages used like annexation and blood red lines. today, for example, i read, blood red lines. today, for example, iread, i blood red lines. today, for example, i read, iwouldn‘t blood red lines. today, for example, i read, i wouldn't say it on television, quite a volga comment, we're going to five—year. calm is required but also an understanding

that the uk is leaving, not the use breaking up. it is sucking up so much energy from the european union. from me and you, everybody‘s been drained by it. there's an odd on to say there are much bigger dangers and challenges facing the eu, and with you as an official with an overview as vice president... i'm an official, there's a difference. that's fair enough. your role as vice president of the european parliament, how worried are you amid all this fuss about brexit, what we don't seem to be focused on, certain countries in the eu, like poland and hungary, for example, are simply refusing to play by you rules and accept basic eu values when it comes to things like a free media and independence of the judiciary. of course we should be worried that, there should be a review of article seven, what's going on in hungary. article seven doesn't work, not only are poland and hungary acting with

themselves but they are acting with themselves but they are acting with the support of a block of countries, the support of a block of countries, the so—called article seven, which would allow them to be disciplined by the eu commission, ecj and others, white work. i've met viktor orban face—to—face and i told him my concern about what's going on in his country. be under no illusion, while brexit is a big issue, we're also dealing with those other fundamentals. more importantly, at least within the eu you have a and to bring article seven, which you say isn't going to work sufficiently... say isn't going to work sufficiently. . . with say isn't going to work sufficiently... with respect to say we're dealing with it under article seven, article seven was triggered last year against poland. this year, the polls have pressed on with these judicial changes which have involved the president basically getting rid of two dozen seniorjudges and the more the eu protests about it, the more the eu protests about it, the more the eu protests about it, the more the polls say we don't care. but you're in a differentjob than i am. myjob is to make sure the polish leadership understands that the rule of law has to prevail even if that takes longer than i would

like, that we keep demanding high standards, and the benefit of europe is that at least in these countries are without around the table. but it doesn't take away from your core point, there are deep divisions behind that. there also seems to me the strain of nativist nationalist populist politicians, which will include those governing in poland and hungary, are making the political weather and parties like yours in the centre—right, thinner gale and the wider block in europe, the european people's party, they are running scared of these people. your own block refused to expel viktor orban‘s fidesz even though you think he's flouting european values. first of all, i'm not running scared of anyone. i'm from a small country but i'm pretty brave in my politics. secondly, the british conservatives didn't vote to sanction viktor orban and hungary, so there's a question for them to answer. and thirdly, the pressure

will be relentless. what's happening within the ep feeds group are deep conversations about what's happening with viktor orban. i told him what i thought about. bep p bottle date. they had an opportunity to say to fidesz... they had an opportunity to say to fidesz. .. we've said very clearly our views of fidesz, as has the... we've not yet got to the point where we come we say we cannot feed together. but don't conflate no dramatic action with inactivity. there's a huge amount of activity on it. so you say. with respect, not so i say, so i know, because i'm involved with it. the truth is you have governments across east europe who refused iraq said the eu notion of burden sharing when it comes to taking quotas of immigrants. on a whole host of other issues, including 10,000 guards into

frontex. .. the notion including 10,000 guards into frontex... the notion of collective eu action isjust frontex... the notion of collective eu action is just not frontex... the notion of collective eu action isjust not happening. not yet, but the pressure will have to be in that direction. for one simple fa ct, be in that direction. for one simple fact, the biggest driver of migratory flows will not be conflict, it will be climate change, and europe needs to do more on that. italy and others feel europe has abandoned them. the core point is the number of migrants coming to europe has dramatically decreased, but what's very worrying, if you have any concern about human beings, is one in18 have any concern about human beings, is one in 18 died. for 18 arrivals, one person dies in the first couple of months of this year. that is a horrific statistics. you're listening to the arguments about what to do, and they seem increasingly to be buying the arguments of the far right. we're about to go into elections... don't

mention the peoples of europe without mentioning the uk. the uk referendum was, in my view, fuelled by false pollsters and focused around migration. we're going back to square one. looking to the future, when it comes to the next european elections, the brits won't be voting but around europe, polling evidence suggests mr salvini, marine le pen's party in france, whole range of far right parties in countries like poland, hungary, austria, you name it, they have the political momentum. the polls suggest they will be very strong in the european parliament. in that area at the weekend, the greens were the surprise, if you like, vote getters and there are new figures coming out. wednesday, you should watch out for them, across europe. definitely politics is polarising. i chair the european parliament and increasingly when i'd call votes, you see the extremes on the right and left about the same way on

issues. it's not about ideology here. there's something else happening on the body politic. i wonder whether the centre can hold. we've seen the centre democrats quite frank should. our own christian democrats, that could be a quite difficult selection for us. -- quite difficult selection for us. -- quite frank should. the main blocs, the ep and european socialists, too many people, according to the opinion polls, they look like a tired old brussels elite is who have not delivered. you see, you're using the language that fuelled a referendum here and quite frankly it becomes a bit tedious. i may have aged since i got elected, but i'm not tired. look at what happens in italy. look what happens in hungary, poland. i know all about is reality but myjob is not to get into a reality i believe would be bad for my children, and i have four of them and infact my children, and i have four of them and in fact i warn them, i say to them you have taken for granted peace on this continent because it's

there. nothing is a given. my biggest worry, and i do tremble with this poor sometimes, it is that we will squander what the european union did, which was developed peace and prosperity on the continent of europe for this idea that you can have your own individual policy, or you can be a populist, when all you have to do is say something but not ta ke have to do is say something but not take the responsibility for it. i ta ke take the responsibility for it. i take responsibility for what i do and what i said, and i hope that in the european parliament elections, we talk about europe, and not national issues, because they tend to be about national issues.” appreciate your historical perspective, but here's i quote from a man widely respected around europe, pascal lami, a former commissioner, he says without change and reform, the eu will remain, as it is today in his view, irrelevant toa it is today in his view, irrelevant to a majority of his citizens to. that's an extraordinary worrying comment from a europhile. it's not worrying. you can worry yourself to

death but you have to do something about it. reform is essential. the thing about being a relevant, hold on for a second. in ireland for example, many took for granted the customs union and single market without knowing what it meant. because of the debate across europe people are beginning to understand the customs union and single market, how drugs are dilated, how chemicals are banned if they're dangerous and europe has done that. how pets can be brought on holidays, call of man i was be brought on holidays, call of man iwasa be brought on holidays, call of man i was a journalist, no media is interested in the good things. your right to focus on all that is difficult and needs to be challenged, because that's myjob to do that. but in that time, it's no harm to remind people that without the european union, where would my country b? we would not be at the table, where at least we have get respect and have a word. i think we would be in a much more difficult word. we have to end the there but

thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you, my pleasure. thank you. hello there. it was a lovely day on monday across scotland and northern ireland, with plenty of sunshine, but a different story for england and wales, rather cloudy skies for most with some mist and murk and a few spots of drizzle. reason is, this weatherfront here which will still be there on tuesday morning. this weather system will bring a change to scotland and northern ireland through the course of tuesday but for the start of tuesday, it looks like we will hold on to this cloud across england and wales. mist and fog developing too across this north—west corner.

these are the temperatures to start this morning. single—figure values in the north, just about double figures further south. a grey start up and down this country. winds picking up across the north—west corner of scotland, some gales. 50—60mph gusts. rain pushing in here in england and wales, a much better day than monday with the clouds breaking up, plenty of sunshine developing particularly across the south—east, we could make 21—23 degrees. even further north, despite the wind and the showers, pretty pleasant temperatures around the seasonal average. on into wednesday, a bit more of a complicated picture. a tanlge of weather fronts moving in from the north—west, one of them grinding to a halt across parts of england. wednesday, could see cloud down from the midlands and lincolnshire, into the south—west. some patchy rain on it. to the north and the west, a bit cooler, fresher, sunshine and one of two showers. a pleasant enough day. in the far south—east, after a foggy start,

we should see some sunshine there. temperatures 15—18 celsius, pretty average for the time of year orjust above. into thursday, a ridge of high pressure building in. some cool air associated with this. a cold start to thursday, particularly the northern half of the country, a touch of frost. mist and fog patches pretty much anywhere. but because of that ridge of high pressure, it's going to be a fine day. light winds, plenty of sunshine up and down the country. a bit of fair weather cloud further south. most places should stay dry. temperatures ranging from 12, maybe 17 degrees across the south—east. it's a similar sort of picture on into friday, although this weather system begins to push in towards the north—west corner of the country. downhill there, whereas high pressure holds on across england and wales. a windy day for scotland and northern ireland, showers or longer spells of rain particularly the north and west of scotland. further south, again under the ridge of high pressure, once we lose any mist and fog patches in the morning, and more news is going to be another fine day. plenty of sunshine around. those temperatures range from 12 to maybe 17 degrees. welcome to newsday on the bbc.

i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. the headlines: the mystery of the saudi journalist — now turkish investigators enter the consulate where he was allegedly killed. uk prime minister theresa may calls for calm ahead of crucial brexit negotiations but concerns in her party are growing. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: australia welcomes the expectant royal couple meghan and harry. we're live in sydney with the latest. and introducing the keruru — new zealand's alcohol—loving bird of the year. live from our studios in singapore and london, this is bbc world news.