hello, i'm kasia madera. ourtop story. president says he believes the missing saudi journalist jamel jamal khashoggi is dead. trump said he is waiting for the results of several investigations before making a comment. the conference in brussels has drawn to a close without a deal. theresa may says the transition period would be extended bya transition period would be extended by a matter of months, beyond 2020. this story is trending on bbc .com. remember banksy‘s most famous picture being shredded just after it was sold at auction? well, banksy has released a statement saying it didn't go complete a plan because the painting was supposed to be com pletely the painting was supposed to be completely shredded. it is time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk,

i'm stephen sackur. to mark the one—year anniversary of catalonia's hugely controversial independence referendum, more than 150,000 catalans took to the streets of barcelona. some blocked roads and rail lines, and they scuffled with police. it was a howl of frustration from people whose dream has been thwarted. well, my guest today is ernest maragall, self—styled minister of foreign action in the catalan regional government. was the separatists‘ decision to go for broke a year ago a major strategic error? ernest maragall, welcome to hardtalk. thank you.

here we are, one year on from that referendum, which you separatists claim gave you a mandate for independence, but which, of course, the madrid government declared completely illegal. and many people believe that right now, your movement has lost momentum and has no clear strategy. that's a legitimate thought, this one. but i think things are slightly different. we're finding our new path, no? we are building it, this new path. we've had this... after the troubled facts in the last year, we've had to... how to say, how do you say, a bad year? you've had a black year... in terms of repression and injustice. we have suffered. we are still suffering in this situation of high pressure coming

from the spanish state. i'm focused really on what seems to be a lack of direction inside the separatist movement. for example, you brought out huge crowds onto the streets of barcelona, and other cities, to mark the one—year anniversary of that referendum that you held, but there were clear divisions within the crowd. there were some people within that crowd who wanted direct action, who wore hoods, who undertook violent acts against train tracks, against roads. how do you feel about those people? i don't like this attitudes. we don't share it. we have three clear elements, maintain dialogue and peaceful behaviour forever. i'm going to stop you there, before we get to number three, let's get to peaceful behaviour because you're catalan regional president, quim torra, he praised those who blocked the roads and train tracks and tried to enter the catalan parliament. no, no!

let me finish. he said, "i urge them to keep up the pressure." to keep up the pressure doesn't mean violence, doesn't mean entering the parliament, of course. but he was talking about people... he was talking about the need for us to maintain a positive pressure over the spanish government. the truth is, mr maragall, you're split. the truth is, the former exiled former president of the region, carles puigdemont, he reflected on what he'd seen on the streets just a few weeks ago, the violence, he said, "if these people use violence, they aren't true first of october people, because when we acted a year ago, we did it with ourfaces uncovered and in a peaceful way. that is the only way to overcome." yes, that's what i was trying to say. yes, exactly. it's the only way to behave is this one. that's our first strategy for this present period, this new and different period. but the truth is, there's these

committees for the defence of republic, set up by young catalan activists. for example, one of them was seen a few weeks ago to put up an effigy of a policeman, hung from a street lamp in barcelona. now, when you see those sorts of images with the words written leave none of them alive, how do you feel about these activists who are on your side? i feel absolutely against these attitudes, but i'm sure these attitudes are not giving character to the process and to our movement. they are very, very, very small. very marginal sectors. we cannot accept that this is the present definition of the republican project. yesterday, we had a demonstration in barcelona, because it was the first anniversary of the putting in jail of our two civic leaders. and it was again once more specific songs and chants. there is a new passion. you're losing control of some elements on the separatist side.

i wouldn't say so. i think in any case it is clear we need to clarify and to express our new strategy in order to send a message to our... to all citizens, including these radicals, perhaps comprehensive reactions, to know where we are... what do we want for the next period, which is our goals? and our goals are three clear goals. you already laid out dialogue, so let's hear the other two quickly. what are the other two goals? i was not talking about not goals, but attitudes, about the strategy. i think the other one is widening our support, and the third one is to be present in europe and in international institutions, to be understood.

in the halls... we'll get through all of this, but there are specific issues before we do that i want to put to you. one is about the prisoners. there are nine high profile political prisoners right now. several of us in exile, yes. mr puigdemont‘s in exile, but these nine, including figures like mrjunqueras, his deputy, there they sit in prison and they're accused of very serious crimes by the spanish government. sedition, rebellion etc. now, you have said that you want the government in madrid to intervene in their cases to release these people. surely the message of your movement from the very beginning is that the spanish courts have been politicised in the past and must not be politicised in the future. so why are you calling for the government to influence the independentjudiciary? no, the spanish government has a lot

of tools and rules and rights to intervene in a sense, notjust giving instructions to a prosecutorfor one personal case, or individual, or group case. there was a very recent appeal on the basis of the families saying this was intolerable and unreasonable distress being imposed on the prisoners‘ families and the supreme court threw it out. that's the process of law. the supreme court in spain is independent. it should be independent. at this moment, we could say that it's much more than independent, it's a real political power by itself. they have their own ideology, they have decided to apply... to appropriate the constitution. they have developed our own interpretation of the constitution in spain, the ‘78 constitution we agree with, and they've put in the concept of unity above the rule of law, above the democratic will of the people and society. they have no right to do this. well, if you take that position, you question the independence

of the courts in the spanish system... but not in the way that they are obeying the spanish government. they are acting for its... for its own purpose, its own design. if that's your view, if you can't control them now, how are you going to control them when nine of your political leadership are actually on trial? i think you were right before, what we are trying to build, we need to express our common united strategy at this moment before thejudgement arrives. it could be... it will be very different if we are able to build this establishment, express it,

explain to the citizenship and arrive at this moment... this difficult moment. we will have a clear possibility of managing the situation, of acting as real responsible for the social and political institutional reaction. it will be necessary to have a reaction. well, we'll see if that happens. it's very important. let me ask you something else,

which is deeply political. it seems to me last year, one year ago, you were in a direct confrontation with the madrid government and the head of that madrid government was mr rajoy, and the pp, popular party, which clearly was absolutely intent upon confrontation with your objectives. there was a clash, a direct clash between the two. there things are different now. there is a socialist government led by pedro sanchez in madrid. they have tried to reach out to you, they've sent a message saying, "we're interested in a dialogue, we're interested in offering more autonomy, a better financial package, we'd like to sit down and talk." you yourself are a socialist, just as mr pedro sanchez is a socialist. you're in a very different political context now, so why not take advantage of that and actually talk? two things to talk in account, sanchez is governing thanks to our vote. you put them in power in a way, the nationalist votes in the spanish parliament put them in power.

hang on, does that give you the right to ignore mr sanchez? you've said to him, your leader, mr torah, has said to mr sanchez, "unless you commit to giving us an independence referendum within one month, we will withdraw our support from your government. that's blackmail. i think it's an expression of urgency. you have to understand that we are living with our prisoners injail, with our leaders in exile also, and with natural anger coming from our society. they are using us to take decisions, to run, to claim a republic already without waiting for anything. we are expressing a claim for urgency, looking for real answers because the spanish socialist government hasn't given us any answers. my point is this... i interviewed... there's no real dialogue offer of us still. that's not what was put to me by the spanish foreign minister, josep borrell, a few weeks ago, i interviewed him. yes, i understand him. he said first of all, "we are committed to dialogue," but he also said, "we have changed the narrative, the spanish people, including the people of catalonia, now see there is a government in place that is not unreasonable, that's trying to find a new path and if you in catalonia continue to reject a meaningful dialogue, the blame would be with you, not with madrid." it's what they're trying to establish is a common topic accepted all over europe,

minister borrell, but things are very different. let me go back to our goals. our goals is freedom for our prisoners, democracy in the sense of reaching an agreement about how to express our right to decide ourfuture, and respect our institutions at the present moment. the possibility of really doing an executive and useful government action. then these three goals, freedom, democracy and government are not still on the table coming from any message from the government of the spanish socialist party. if you believe... they are talking about, yes, a new one... for us, talking about a new institute is going back ten years ago, it isn't adding nothing new, it is not answering our claim. are you prepared to bring down this government? it's not our purpose to bring down this government. but are you prepared to do it? we have to be always... in politics, one always has to be prepared to take decisions... but if you do that... yes, if i assure you now that we'll never do it then i'm renouncing any possibility of having a real negotiation... hang on, let me ask this question,

you know if you bring down the socialist government, according to the opinion polls, there is a very high chance if there's a snap election the next government of spain will be absolutely opposed to any sort of meaningful dialogue. that's the reason why we're not interested in bringing down this government. it's not our will, it's not our just. .. not our last word on it.

we will do all is possible to reach an agreement with the spanish government. you've boxed yourselves into a corner, that's the truth. when you say to me, "0ur desire right now is to broaden our support," the fundamental problem as separatists in catalonia is that despite all of the efforts you've made, and last year's dramatic independence referendum that you held, that the opinion polls are absolutely clear. you do not command an overwhelming majority of the people of catalonia on your side. look at the december election result, which was very close. look at the opinion polls today, which show that 46% of catalans favour independence, almost 45% oppose it. this is a region completely divided. you don't have the momentum which would take your movement towards independence. in any case, you have won the last four opportunities

to express our will, in terms of votes, in 2014 with a proper consultation. my point is not that you can't win elections — these are the words of an historian, she says, "some of us believe that, despite the fact of victory and a referendum might be valid and legitimate with a win of simply 51%, the truth is in terms of secession from spain, you need a much wider majority than that," and you can't win that wider majority. why we can't? it's our goal. i said it before. it's part of our goals. it's exactly this one. we are conscious of this. we know that it will reach that to overcome the 50% of catalan society in favour of our project. we will have no right to claim for international support.

that is our duty, this is our task, that is why we need time, it is why we need stability, why we need executive government — stable, sure, credible. i see what you're saying. you need time, you need to show in the catalan region that you have a stable government that is good for the people. another of your problems... we have to gain this support. yes, you do. the problem is that people of catalonia right now have real economic fears connected with the uncertainty that you guys have stirred up. take into account thatjust, i don't know, six, seven years ago, this kind of proposal, the republic for a new catalonian state, would have received no more than 20%. and we have already made a great lap, a great forward advance from 20 to almost 50. then it's not a fixed, stable, closed situation.

it is another element. but, in truth... it's another element. the bloc for the republic is different because it's diverse, we have left, central right, centre—left, radicals. yes, the separatist movement is a broad one. there is still a project, a common purpose, a common, realfuture. 0n the other side, the other 50%, to say, there is no project, no alternative. they have not offered anything except to be against. the one thing they have... well, hang on, let me ask a question. one thing they have on their side, that is, the catalan opponents of separation and independence, is evidence that business in catalonia does not want to continue with this separatist political project. for example, 3000 companies shifted their official headquarters

out of catalonia as a result of the uncertainty stirred up by that referendum of yours. look at some of the biggest banks, caixabank, banco sabadell, they've moved their headquarters, their official headquarters away from catalonia. look at gas natural, another company, i mean, and other evidence about foreign investment falling away suggests there is a real danger to catalonia's prosperity if you continue your campaign. facts are saying almost exactly to the contrary. it is true, some big corporations, some big business sector have taken precautions and have protected... yes, because they don't like the uncertainty. but they don't like uncertainty, exactly. but it depends on how the climate of dialogue is reached between the spanish state and catalan institutions. and the economic fuels, by the moment, we are growing more

than spain, we are growing much more than median of european countries. we have enormous trade surplus, almost the second in europe. we have a lot of views that show... minister, the very fact that catalonia has prospered within spain suggests to me that many catalans will listen to you and think, "you know what, the status quo has allowed us to be a prosperous people inside the spanish nation." i understand you, but the question is that we are not here because of the economic givens, or a sense of being not prosperous — that is not a revolution of necessity. there is no revolution of desperation. it is a kind of revolution... it's a new kind of european, democratic movement established more

in conviction, in our personality, our rights, it's not nationalistic, it's not ethnic, it's not just rejecting against the spanish people. well, a final point... it's a real affirmation of what... it is valuable for europe. we know it. we are more european... well, you keep telling me that you, as a separate independent nation would be great for europe. your problem, and this is my final question, your problem as ministerforforeign action for the regional government is that europe doesn't believe you. in fact, jean—claude juncker, the president of the commission said not long ago, "my goodness, you know, if the catalans ever did get their independence we would be looking at a european union which would consist of about 98 states — we don't want that." there is no content in the treaties to make us out of the european union. there is no treaty for the question,

the issue of nations inside the state to take the decision to separate from the state... there is no provision. it would be no more than two, three, four cases — scotland, flemish... well, who are you to say? you can't say what you might open up in terms of other separatist movements around europe. you have no idea. that's why it makes sense, as it is already happening, to open the real debate at the european level about the internal enlargement, to say the requisite, the democratic equality that would be required for the people to express their will in this sense, why not? to be honest, at the moment, given europe's problems with brexit, with some much of what's happening in eastern europe with nationalism and populism, frankly, i don't think your vision of europe considering a future of regions

and fragmentation... it's a medium—long—term vision. it's a fantasy. no, it's not a fantasy. a final thoughtm which comes from a striking quote from a leading journalist in la vanguardia, one of catalonia's biggest newspapers, juan jose lopez burniol wrote this: "catalonia does not have the strength for unilateral independence, but what it does have is a massive ability to destabilise the whole of spain." that's where we are today, isn't it? no, because... i know him very well. this is a friend of mine. and i think that his diagnosis is a part of the truth, because we have had this ability to destabilise, we have had these extreme—right movements, for instance, but we also have the knowledge, the will to accept a real debate with the spanish state about the real conditions of our relations.

we are putting on the table our independence, but we are open to discuss about a real alternative, a real offering for the spanish socialist government that has not been formal, has not been expressed still. but why not? instead of choosing yes or no about independence, why not choose a or b about independence, or a kind of devolution? why not? this is the real dialogue that we could have really opened already, and the spanish socialist government is not able to open. well, in terms of dialogue, we have to stop our dialogue right now. it's a pity. ernest maragall, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much, thank you very much. hello again.

most of us saw some decent sunshine on thursday, and after a sunny day, we'll keep those clear skies for the first part of the night as well. this is how things looked at the end of the day in east yorkshire. with those clear skies and light winds in place, temperatures have been cooling pretty quickly. but we do have quite a bit of cloud now working into the north—west of the uk, along with strengthening winds. so the coldest part of the night is past us in northern ireland, and across the north—west of scotland, with temperatures actually rising over the next few hours as this band of rain arrives. also some gale—force gusts of wind working into the western isles, becoming quite blowy as well for the northern isles of scotland. further south, well, we've got some frost around to start

the day in the countryside in northern england. cold, some cold spots in wales, again with temperatures just dipping down, and there could be one or two patches of frost elsewhere first thing. but generally friday, across england and wales, it's high pressure that's firmly in charge, a weather front staying across the north—west of the uk. heavy rain then to start the day across north—west scotland. but the rain eases off quite quickly, and as the front pushes southwards, it weakens just to this strip of cloud, really, across northern ireland, working into north—west england and the far north of wales. there could be the odd spot of rain, but not amounting to much. south of that, some sunshine, temperatures to 16 degrees also in london, so a pretty mild day coming up. now, through friday evening and overnight, we'll keep the clear skies, light winds combination across england and wales. this time, we may well see some mist and fog patches forming through the night as those temperatures fall. areas that could be foggy, well, maybe the somerset levels, through the wash marshes, the salisbury plain as well,

could be a few patches elsewhere. so it does mean for some of us that saturday morning could start something like this, and any mist and fog could take a few hours in the morning before it burns away to reveal some sunshine. further north and west, quite a lot of cloud to start off your weekend. outbreaks of rain for the north—west of scotland, where it will continue to be quite windy. temperature—wise, the temperatures around about 15 or 16 degrees for scotland. 17 for belfast, so mild here. and towards south—east england, highs reaching 18, possibly 19 celsius. for the second half of the weekend, high pressure still with us across england and wales, but another cold front sliding into the north—west of the uk will bring some heavier rain with it to scotland, and this time northern ireland getting some heavier rain for a time too. the best of the weather further south, but again there could be so mist and fog patches to start the day. some of that could be quite slow to clear. but it's in the south we'll see the highest temperatures. things, though, cooling down across the whole of the country as we head into the weekend. that's your weather. i'm mariko 0i in singapore, the headlines — the pressure is ramping

up on saudi arabia. president trump says it ‘certainly looks‘ like the missing journalist, jamal khashoggi is dead — and there will be consequences. well, it would have to be very severe. it‘s bad, bad stuff. we‘ll see what happens. another summit ends — with no sign of a brexit breakthrough. theresa may suggests the uk could stay tied to the eu for longer than planned. i‘m kasia madera in london. also in the programme — the wife of interpol‘s former president, meng hongwei, speaks to the bbc — weeks after he was detained in china.