in a mass shooting on saturday. the white house has rejected suggestions that mr trump's rhetoric has encouraged a surge in white nationalist and neo—nazi activity. somejewish groups and leaders publicly opposed his visit, and hundreds of people protested on the streets. denmark has demanded the european union impose new sanctions against tehran. danish intelligence says it's foiled an iranian plot to assassinate an iranian arab activist living in denmark. a norwegian citizen of iranian background has been arrested. the head of indonesia's military has told a press conference that search and rescue teams may have found on the seabed the main fuselage of the lion air plane that crashed on monday, with 189 passengers and crew. details of the plane's flight log, published by the bbc, show the aircraft had technical problems the day before the crash. you are up—to—date on the headlines. it is just about liz30am. it is time

now for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. cyril ramaphosa replaced jacob zuma as leader of the anc and president of south africa with a promise to revive the country's economy, tackle poverty and root out corruption. maybe he underestimated the scale of the challenge, because south africa is currently in recession and popular discontent is rising. one key sector, energy, threatens the stability of the entire economy. my guest is deputy energy minister, thembisile majola. is the anc incapable of delivering the change south africa needs? thembisile majola,

welcome to hardtalk. thank you. cyril ramaphosa, he had a honeymoon, it seemed that there was a great deal of optimism when he took over in south africa in february. that honeymoon did not last long, did it? it didn't last long, but he has not been sitting on his laurels. he has been working very hard. as you are aware, he started off with making sure that we put together a whole series of commissions of enquiry to deal with theissues commissions of enquiry to deal with the issues of corruption in the public sector and in the private sector. he has replaced, made sure that we replace a number of boards that we replace a number of boards that were not doing what they were supposed to do at escom and other

public utilities. there was a job summit to which government, the business sector and other social partners committed to make sure that we deal with unemployment, because thatis we deal with unemployment, because that is a real challenge in the country. there were a host of challenges. you mention eskom, we will deal with that, the state—owned power energy utility and we will talk great deal about them but before we do, it seems to me cyril ramaphosa needs today south africans with him if he is to deliver, and what we've seen in the eight months since he took power is a record —— an economy with popular protest on the streets, at specific fuel price rises, this is a catastrophic beginning to his presidency because he is not taking people with him. he is. as i am saying right now, one of

the things that he has done which people are very excited about is because he is transforming the state—owned enterprises like eskom to make sure that they actually deliver on the mandate they are supposed to. hang on a second, let's just talk about practical politics. you say we are dealing with the eskom problem by dealing with our board to consider how to change it. that's going to take a very long time. in the short run as i say you have protests on the streets, you have protests on the streets, you have opinion polls, the one ijust saw from citizen survey at the end of september suggest 65% of your fellow countrymen now believe the country is heading in the wrong direction. well, you know, you can have a number of surveys. i can tell you of other surveys that actually feel very optimistic because they feel very optimistic because they feel this is a president who has begun to address the issues. he is not just talking about them. you begun to address the issues. he is notjust talking about them. you are aware that we have just led an investment summit. what do you say, because i want to bring it down, you

know, i can't claim that all of this is either his fault or your fault but i can put to give some of the problems in your particular department, that is energy. what do you say to the south africans who have seen in the last few weeks the energy regulator authorise a rise in energy power prices which is going to amount to 15% for the next three yea rs. to amount to 15% for the next three years. now, that's going to produce massive rises in inflation across the economy because power is such an important part of the economy. it's going to mean that people already stretched are going to find that their incomes do not cover the basics. in terms of electricity, we are talking about. yes. yes, quite right. that is one of the reasons why right now last week in the investment conference we were talking about the issue that we need to actually change eskom because you know as well as i do that no monopoly, whether private or public,

is efficient, so a lot of it has to do with the inefficiencies within eskom but there is also the reality of old infrastructure that has not been maintained as it should have been maintained as it should have been maintained. there is a bit of a bloated superstructure in eskom, so there are those issues that we need to be dealing with. but in the meantime you are aware that we also have an independent power producer programme which has been very successful in terms of providing clea n successful in terms of providing clean energy as well. are you saying to me after years of anc resistance to me after years of anc resistance to any privatisation of the energy sector that you are now welcoming the notion of breaking up eskom, ending its monopoly and introducing the private sector into energy? we are saying right now in order to address the challenges in south africa, everything, every option is on the table. we are talking about private participation within eskom, we are talking about privatising those entities that the state should

not be managing. so all those options, yes, all of them are on the table. well specifically the democratic alliance, the opposition party in your parliament, has just drafted a bill demanding that the state municipalities in south africa be able, be allowed, to take their power, their energy, from private sector companies, to get away from the eskom monopoly. are you going to back that? no, there is a challenge with that. we have a very unequal society in south africa. one of the reasons that we are not going to agree to that is that we have a responsibility to ensure energy security, to ensure access to energy. if you were to go that route, what would happen is, yes, cape town and johannesburg would do very well, but all the other areas that have still got to be a electrified would remain behind. so the state monopoly continues. no, it is not the state, we are talking about private sector participation. and the fact that they want to do

this, they are part of the state, by the way, as cape town, they are part of the state. it is the question of each individual municipality doing that on their own, which means that those who have the resources will get the electricity, and those who are poor, who is going to provide for them? eskom is in such a state of colla pse for them? eskom is in such a state of collapse that there is a very real possibility it will go bankrupt. its debt over the next few yea rs bankrupt. its debt over the next few years is due to rise, according to current projections, too as i understand it around $600 rant, how has this happened ?|j understand it around $600 rant, how has this happened? i am not sure about the 600 billion, but, yes, it is very high and it is one of the reasons that the current minister is speaking to the private sector in terms of their participation so that we do not reach that point. the reality is that eskom is a state entity, eskom is the one... would

you agree, the anc of course has been associated with this model of state enterprises. would you agree that that model has fundamentally failed your country? we have inherited that model and we have tried as best as possible to make sure that it can serve the entire population and notjust a portion of that population. i am asking your question, has it failed, look at the fa cts , question, has it failed, look at the facts, eskom electricity prices have increased by 356%, it is so large i can barely get my head around it, in the last decade, while inflation over the same period was 7a%, and at the same time its debts are so catastrophic that, if it were a private sector business, it would have gone bust many years ago. again i come back to you, being prepared, asa i come back to you, being prepared, as a seniorfigure in i come back to you, being prepared, as a senior figure in the anc, to say, this model has failed. this model does need to be reviewed. you must also... reviewed? yes, it does have to be reviewed. part of the issue that you need to understand is

that this is not only about who can make the money. we are also providing services to people who are not able to pay for them. so eskom has the challenge of having to be a player in a competitive world, but at the same time having this developmental mandate. this is why we're saying as government it's not something where we can just say, it has all failed. we have a electrified over come a close, doubled the number of houses that have been electrified. we are close to universal access. and eskom has been at the centre of that. one of the reasons people are on the streets protesting is of course this projected rise that is barely possible to imagine what it will mean to south africans, a 15% rise in power prices for the next three yea rs, in power prices for the next three years, progressively, but at the same time they have just been record rises in fuel, in petrol prices, as well, going up a full rand for elite of petrol in south africa just this month. people are taking to the

streets. they want the government to put a cap on these soaring prices. are you as a minister in the department prepared to say you'll do it? well, if you understand the south african system, in terms of the rises that have happened in the last few months, that's because of the rand — dollar exchange, that is out of our hands. part of the other is because of the fuel levy which is managed by the department... you could put a cap on prices if you so chose, you did it in september, then you release the cap, which is why the price soared again — the people of your country, 27% of whom are unemployed, more than 50% of whom live in poverty, don't want explanations, they just want action, they want you to put a cap on these soaring prices. will you do it? who is going to take that cost? because we do not have oil as a country. we are dependent on the international market. we have to buy it in the market. we have to buy it in the market. and we don't have any

control over that price. that is the reality. the cat that we were able to put for one month was simply because of the monies that had been accumulated because of over recovery. that was able to cover one month. it is not sustainable to do it for ever. for this month that we are going in to now, november, actually we are going to have a decrease simply because the price of oil has come down and the rand has strengthened. do you fear for the stability of your country, given what we have just outlined, the level of unemployment, which is going up, the level of poverty, which is staggering by any standard, and the degree of discontent on the streets ? and the degree of discontent on the streets? iterate and stability. and the degree of discontent on the streets? iterate and stabilitym does threaten stability and that is one of the reasons that we have taken certain steps as i was saying -- it taken certain steps as i was saying —— it threatens stability. in the last week investment summit we were able to get concrete money, notjust pledges, but project money off 290 billion because we understand the

challenge of unemployment in south africa. we do need to industrialise, we need to make sure that the youth can be incorporated because they are the ones who are worst hit by this unemployment. there is another huge structural challenge which faces you and that is that south africa is dangerously reliant on coal. i mean, the figures are extraordinary. coal produces 88%, virtually 90%, of your country's electricity. greenpeace just today has released a report saying that south africa has the most polluting of coal fired power stations in the whole world. they found the world's most polluted blackspot in terms of nitrogen dioxide, one of the key greenhouse gases, to be in your country. you have to transition away from coal. how are you going to do it? we are transitioning. this is why, right now as i speak to you, in the last four years, we've connected over

3700 megawatts of clean energy from solar, from wind, from biomass. as i understand it, correct me, correct me ifiam understand it, correct me, correct me if i am wrong, you are the energy minister, right now, renewables represent less than 4% of your energy mix. they are, but we are growing that. 496. yes! the reality. your own calculations and projections show that the amount of c02 projections show that the amount of co2 emitted by your economy because of this massive reliance on coal, the amount of co2 emissions is going to go up between 2020 and 2025, despite all of the promises your government made along with all other government made along with all other government as part of the paris climate accord. that is not correct, right now we have the integrated resource plan which is out for discussion. if you look at that, we are saying that by 2030.” discussion. if you look at that, we are saying that by 2030. i have looked at it. 2096 of energy will be from renewable. your own irp plan says emissions will continue to rise

between 2020 and 2025 unless i have missed something. we are saying what is out there right now being debated is looking at all the energy technologies, and what we are proposing is over 8000 of wind, 8000 megawatts. we are proposing close to 7000 of solar, and we are talking even the concentrated solar energy... we're talking about hydropower as well. your own country's steamed climate of action tracker, an esteemed programme from three different organisations, is that your plan isn't at all consistent with the paris agreement and cutting global warming rises to less than two or eveni.5 warming rises to less than two or even 1.5 celsius. not at all consistent. i would like to see some of those plans because unfortunately there is a mixture of plans which are scientifically based, and those from the lobby because we presented

this, and this is part of our paris agreement, which we did together. just a final thought, if you're serious about meeting your own commitments with regard to the paris climate agreement, why are you backpedalling on nuclear, which, for all its difficulties and expenses, is, in terms of co2, a much cleaner option. your backpedalling on nuclear and you're still building new coal—fired power stations, what kind of strategic vision is this? it's a cost issue. i'm not saying we're not going to do nuclear right now, it was an affordability issue, that was the bottom line. we'd love to have more nuclear because we got a lot of expertise around that. nuclear energy‘s the most productive form of energy. as you know, we produce medical isotopes, we do pest control and all those issues so we do love nuclear, but we need to do it in do love nuclear, but we need to do itina do love nuclear, but we need to do it in a way that we can sustain the cost. so you are really in a bind.

you're telling me macro eskom has mountainous debts, which frankly no amount of restructuring will get rid of any amount of restructuring will get rid ofany time amount of restructuring will get rid of any time soon, you also can't afford to cut out your dependents on coal because it's simply too expensive if you look at the options. i don't see how south africa is going to come anywhere close to delivering clean growth. you are aware of the 27 projects that we'd signed two months ago, which are for a new ball energy?” am aware? i'm aware of the specific projects. i'm aware of the structural challenge. renewables, right now, 3.7% of your energy mix, let's get real about the way south africa's economy works. stephen, we signed the 27 projects despite budgetary constraints because we made a commitment and as a government, we had to honour that. it's the same with the coal projects we've done, we already made a commitment. this is not something where we woke up and decided, that's

the reality. the second reality we must look at is the fact coal, and in south africa, we have towns that have developed around coal. when you transition, new need to make sure that you have alternatives. that's the reality. the job reality, issue is the reality. 80,000 jobs directly in coalmining.12% of is the reality. 80,000 jobs directly in coalmining. 12% of exports is the reality. 80,000 jobs directly in coalmining.12% of exports are coal and coal related. if you're honest with me, and the world, you can't afford, given every thing we said about the state of south africa's economy, you can't afford to end your dependence on coal. we're going to end the dependents but we're going to do this transmission in a just man, and not leave anybody behind. introduced, interesting you introduce the concept of justice, interesting you introduce the concept ofjustice, because in other areas. . . concept ofjustice, because in other areas... iwant concept ofjustice, because in other areas... i want to expand our conversation into other areas where the anc has often talked about justice, and where it appears mr

ramaphosa is talking about a new form of justice. let's ramaphosa is talking about a new form ofjustice. let's talk about land, ramaphosa indicated, he met the zimbabwe pleasant, president, talking about learning from zimbabwe, he indicated he there must be land confiscation and expropriation as a form of economic justice. how far is he going to take that? i'm hearing those words from you for the first time. what i do note the president has spoken about is expropriation without compensation. the process we are undertaking as a country is in the constitution there is the provision for reparations because we need to address the injustices of the past. but what the constitution says it is you can expropriated with just compensation for public good. what we wa nt compensation for public good. what we want to do now is not to leave it almost to mine or your interpretation, we want the constitution to be absolutely clear.

when it says just and for public interest, can we spelt it out? versus prospect has always been willing buyer, willing seller. that's just one of the ways. it has in the constitution. i'm quoting this line from the constitution, a just and equitable compensation. but now people in south africa, perhaps... please quote it properly. it says land can be expropriated in the public interest, without... without compensation. it's there in the constitution. you don't think there's any obligation on south africa, the government, the state to deliver equitable compensation. stephen, if you give me one minute i'll explain it to you. the constitution also defends very strongly private property ownership. it does that. it's... and we will

not tamper with it. what we are saying is this justice not tamper with it. what we are saying is thisjustice must not tamper with it. what we are saying is this justice must not only be about those who have land, it must also be justice for those who don't have land so we can make sure that there is security of tenure, of land, for everybody. i know you are a very loyal member of your movement, the anc. you have been for a long time. i'm a patriot. does it worry you that a former patriot of your country, and anc stalwart, thabo mbeki said this in a leaked document in october, land confiscation suggests the anc has moved away from the fundamental principle of nonracist. it has changed in character. it's no longer representative of the people of south africa, rather, as former presidentjacob south africa, rather, as former president jacob zuma said, south africa, rather, as former presidentjacob zuma said, it is now a black party. it's unfortunate that is what happens when documents are leaked... because you find out people's true feelings. his true

feelings about the direction... let me tell you what president mbeki was saying, president mbeki was talking about the whole issue where it had beenin about the whole issue where it had been in terms of saying you have to ta ke been in terms of saying you have to take from white to give to black. the constitution, as i said, defends a land rights and land ownership. this is about making sure that even those who do not have land because of the past system do get land and can get land tenure so that they have security, they can use it for economic activities. this is what we're trying to address. we're not going to wake up and said tomorrow we're going to take your land. that constitution, which we were part of drafting, we respect and we will make sure that is not violated. you're trying to make it sound so noncontroversial, but the opposition leader said recently the government approach seeks to stop racial tension, it could amount to state

sanctioned theft and. as you say to me the south african economy needs the support of the international community, as you did earlier, do you not worry that this particular land programme and policy may well frighten off the international community and international investment? what will frighten investors is when the opposition becomes so disingenuous around issues. we have a parliament role process where the whole country has been involved, including the opposition, women's youth organisations, who have all made presentations because if we do not presentations because if we do not present the land issue, even the investments we a re present the land issue, even the investments we are talking about will go down the drain because there's land hunger. bears even an absence of land to build homes for people. it's not only farming. it's just for somebody to say, this is my house and i own it and i have the title deeds to that. it's that basic. a final thought, ramaphosa title deeds to that. it's that basic. a finalthought, ramaphosa in his state address to the nation said at the beginning of his term, we are

going to build a society defined by decency and integrity. how disappointed are you that respected researchers on corruption, such as kamal at the university of the zulu natal, have concluded after eight months that they see nothing new, the cans of corruption, he says, is in fact more insidious and it remains a normal way of life for south africans. i don't know about south africans. i don't know about south africans. i don't know about south africa because we have the steinhardt scandal, where they've had to come to a commission to account, that's a private company. we have the issue of the banks. we've got a commission right now looking at state capture, and that has become the basis for actually going thejudicial has become the basis for actually going the judicial route. has become the basis for actually going thejudicial route. i think what the president has done is there must never be an opportunity for anyone to say i'm being targeted politically. this has to be a proper judicial... not a populist issue, so

that everybody‘s rights are respected. thembisile majola, we have to end it there but i do thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much, hello there. if the cold weather isn't your thing, then you'll be glad to know by the end of the week, and certainly into the weekend, it'll be turning much milder, but also wetter and windier with it, too, so more on that injust a moment. this morning we're starting off again on quite a cold know for many areas. further west, though, we've got these weak weather fronts bringing more cloud, some spots of rain, so here a less cold start. for central and eastern areas, a fairly widespread frost. there'll also be a little bit of mist and fog across southern areas, but at least where you have the frosty start, it should be dry, with plenty of sunshine in central and eastern areas.

these weather fronts further west will be producing a little bit of rain, western scotland into northern ireland, and the other one affecting western parts of england and in towards wales. but eastern scotland, central, southern and eastern england should remain dry all day. and we'll start to pick up a milder southerly breeze, so that'll push temperatures up to around 11—13 degrees across england and wales. still quite a cool one, though, for scotland and northern ireland. then into wednesday night, we start to see some rain pushing up from the south into south—eastern areas of england. meanwhile, this weather front across the west begins to meet with it, so by thursday it looks like it's going to be quite wet, cloudy, for much of eastern scotland, eastern england and wales, and by the end of thursday that band of rain will be confined to more eastern areas, with skies brightening up further west, bar a few showers. a cooler feel to things across central and northern areas, but we're still holding onto double—figure values across the south. then we look to the atlantic for friday. now, this deep area of low pressure contains the remnants of hurricane oscar, and it'll arrive across the north—west of the country later on friday. but actually, friday

not a bad start. a chilly one, mind you, but it will be bright, with plenty of sunshine. across western areas, though, the cloud, the wind, and eventually the rain will start to appear. but it'll be a little bit milder pretty much across the board, with double—figure values for many of us. and then, through friday night, it really will be quite stormy across the north—west of the country as that low passes by. into saturday, a windy day with outbreaks of rain, and for sunday we see a secondary area of low pressure move in, to bring another spell of wet and fairly windy weather to our shores. so it really will be quite wild to end the week. this is saturday's picture, then. starts off again plenty of sunshine across southern and eastern areas, and here it should stay dry all day, albeit quite windy. the further north and west that you are, we'll see widespread gales, a spell of pretty heavy rain at times, too. but it's a gusty day across the board, especially so, though, across this north—west corner. but look at these temperatures, importing some very mild air from the south—west. temperatures 14 to maybe 16 celsius. another wet and fairly windy but mild day on sunday. a quieter one on monday, but we'll still have southerly winds, so it'll be very

mild in the south. this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top stories: with14 millon people facing starvation in yemen, the united states finally calls for a ceasefire. we are calling on all the parties, specifically the houthi and arab coalition to sweden in november and come to a solution. president trump, his family and advisers, visit the scene of the massacre of 11jewish people in pittsburgh. hundreds of protestors say he's not welcome. denmark says it's foiled an iranian plot to carry out an assassination on its soil. losing friends in europe — facebook growth disappoints as it battles security breaches and worries over fake news.