turkey has said that the journalist jamal khashoggi was strangled as soon as he entered the saudi consulate in istanbul nearly a month ago. the prosecutor said the murder was premeditated and that mr khashoggi's body was dismembered shortly after he was killed. saudi arabia claims the murder was the result of a rogue operation, with no involvement from the ruling monarchy. the prime minister of pakistan has appealed for calm after demonstrators blockaded streets in protest at the acquittal of a christian woman who'd been sentenced to death for blasphemy. and this video is trending on bbc.com. aship a ship manoeuvring into port m ba rzalo na a ship manoeuvring into port m barzalona crashed into a crane on the dockside. strong winds are believed to have made it difficult to steer the ship —— moving into port in barcelona. they won was injured. see you later. —— no—one was injured. now on bbc news — it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk.

i'm stephen sackur. cyril ramaphosa replaced jacob zuma as leader of the anc and president of south africa with a promise to revive the country's economy, tackle poverty and root out corruption. maybe he underestimated the scale of the challenge, because south africa is currently in recession and popular discontent is rising. one key sector, energy, threatens the stability of the entire economy. my guest is deputy energy minister, thembisile majola. is the anc incapable of delivering the change south africa needs? thembisile majola, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. cyril ramaphosa, he had a honeymoon, it seemed that there was a great deal of optimism when he took over in south africa in february. that honeymoon did not last long, did it? it didn't last long, but he has not been sitting on his laurels. he has been working very hard. as you are aware, he started off with making sure that we put

together a whole series of commissions of enquiry to deal with the issues of corruption in the public sector, and in the private sector. he has replaced... made sure that we replace a number of boards that were not doing what they were supposed to do, at eskom and other public utilities. there was a job summit to which government, the business sector and other social partners committed to make sure that we deal with unemployment, because that's a real challenge in the country. well, there are a host of challenges. you mentioned eskom, and we will get into detail about eskom, because, of course, that is the state—owned power energy utility, and we will talk a great deal about them, but before we get to them, it seems to me cyril ramaphosa needs to take south africancer with him if he is to deliver on structural reform, because some of it's going to be very difficult. yes. and what we have seen in the eight

months since he took power is an economy that has slipped into recession, we have seen unemployment at record highs, we have seen popular protest on the streets, at specific fuel price rises, energy price rises, this is a catastrophic beginning to his presidency, because he's not taking people with him. oh, but he is. as i am saying right now, one of the things that he has done, which people are very excited about, is because he is transforming the state—owned enterprises, like eskom, to make sure that they actually deliver on the mandate they are supposed to. but you say... and... well, hang on a second, let'sjust talk about practical politics. you say, "well, we're dealing with the eskom problem by setting up with a sort of board to consider how to change it." that's going to take a very long time. in the short run, as i say you, have protests on the streets, you have opinion polls, the one i just saw from citizen survey, at the end of september, suggests 65% of your fellow countrymen now believe the country is heading in the wrong direction.

well, you know, you can have a number of surveys. i can also tell you of other surveys that actually feel very optimistic because they feel this is a president who has begun to address the issues. he's not just talking about them. you are aware that we have just led an investment summit. what do you say, because i want to bring it down, you know, i can't claim that all of this is either his fault or your fault, but i can put to give some of the problems in your particular department, that is energy. what do you say to the south africans who have seen, in the last few weeks, the energy regulator authorise a rise in energy power prices, which is going to amount to 15% for the next three years. now, that's going to produce massive rises in inflation across the economy, because power is such an important part of the economy. it's going to mean that people already stretched are going to find that their incomes do not cover the basics. in terms of electricity, you are talking about. yes. well, yes, you are quite right. that's one of the reasons why right now, last week in the investment conference, we were talking about the issue that we need to actually unbundle eskom, because it cannot continue.

you would know as well as i do that no monopoly, whether private or public, is efficient. so a lot of it has to do with the inefficiencies within eskom, but there's also the reality of old infrastructure that has not been maintained as it should have been maintained. there is a bit of a bloated superstructure in eskom. so there are those issues that we need to be dealing with. but, in the meantime, you are aware that we also have an independent power producer programme, which has been very successful in terms of providing clean energy as well. are you saying to me, after years of anc resistance to any privatisation of the energy sector, that you are now welcoming the notion of breaking up eskom, ending its monopoly and introducing the private sector into energy?

we are saying right now, in order to address the challenges in south africa, everything, every option, is on the table. we are talking about private participation within eskom, we are talking about privatising those entities that the state should not be managing. so all those options, yes, all of them are on the table. well, specifically the democratic alliance, the opposition party in your parliament, has just drafted a bill demanding that the state municipalities in south africa be able, allowed, to take their power, their energy, from private sector companies, to get away from the eskom monopoly. are you going to back that? no, there's a challenge with that. we have a very unequal society in south africa. one of the reasons that we are not going to agree to that is that we have a responsibility

to ensure energy security, to ensure access to energy. if you were to go that route, what would happen is, yes, cape town and joburg would do very well, but all the other areas that have still got to be electrified would remain behind. so the state monopoly continues. no, it's not the state, we are talking about private sector participation. and the fact that they want to do this... they are part of the state, by the way, as cape town, they are part of the state. it's the question of each individual municipality doing that on their own, which means that those who have the resources will get the electricity, and those who are poor, who's going to provide for them? eskom is in such a state of collapse that there is a very real possibility it will go bankrupt. its debt over the next few years is due to rise, according to current projections, to, as i understand it, around $600 rand. how has this happened? i'm not sure about the 600 billion, but, yes, it's very high,

and it's one of the reasons that the current minister is actually speaking to the private sector in terms of their participation, so that we do not reach that point. the reality is that eskom is a state entity, eskom is the one... would you agree, ‘cause the anc, of course, has been associated with this model of state enterprises. would you agree that that model has fundamentally failed your country? we have inherited that model and we have tried as best as possible to make sure that it can serve the entire population and not just a portion of that population. i'm asking you a very simple question, has it failed? look at the facts, eskom electricity prices have increased by 356%, it's so large i can barely get my head around it, in the last decade, while inflation over the same period was 7a%, and at the same time its debts are so catastrophic that, if it was a private sector business, it would have gone bust many years ago. again, i come back to you, being prepared, as a seniorfigure in the anc, to say,

"this model has failed." this model does need to be reviewed. you must also... reviewed?! yes, it does have to be reviewed. part of the issue that you need to understand is that this is not only about who can make the money. we are also providing services to people who are not able to pay for them. so eskom has the challenge of having to be a player in a competitive world, but at the same time having this developmental mandate. this is why we're saying as government it's not something where we can just say, "it has all failed." we have a electrified over... close to doubled the number of houses that have been electrified. we are close to universal access. and eskom has been at the centre of that. one of the reasons people are on the streets protesting is of course this projected rise,

it's barely, again, barely possible to imagine what it will mean to south africans, a 15% rise in power prices for the next three years, progressively, but at the same time they've just been record rises in fuel, in petrol prices, as well, going up a full rand for a litre of petrol in south africa just this month. people are taking to the streets. they want the government to put a cap on these soaring prices. are you, as a minister in the department, prepared to say you'll do it? well, if you understand the south african system, in terms of the rises that have happened in the last few months, that's because of the rand—dollar exchange, that is out of our hands. part of the other is because of the fuel levy, which is managed by the department... you could put a cap on prices if you so chose, you did it in september, then you released the cap, which is why the price soared again. the people of your country, 27% of whom are unemployed, more than 50% of whom live

in poverty, don't want explanations, they just want action, they want you to put a cap on these soaring prices. will you do it? who is going to take that cost? because we do not have oil as a country. we are dependent on the international market. we have to buy it in the market. and we don't have any control over that price. that is the reality. the cat that we were able to put for one month was simply because of the monies that had been accumulated because of over—recovery. that was able to cover one month. it's not sustainable to do it for ever. for this month that we are going in to now, november, actually, we are going to have a decrease, simply because the price of oil has come down and the rand has strengthened. do you fear for the stability of your country, given what we've just outlined, the level of unemployment, which is going up, the level of poverty, which is staggering by any standard, and the degree of discontent on the streets? it threatens stability.

it does threaten stability, and that is one of the reasons that we've taken certain steps, as i was saying. in the last week, in the investment summit, we were able to get concrete money, notjust pledges, but project money off 290 billion, because we understand the challenge of unemployment in south africa. we do need to industrialise, we need to make sure that the youth can be incorporated, because they are the ones who are worst hit by this unemployment. there's another huge structural challenge which faces you, and that is that south africa is dangerously reliant on coal. i mean, the figures are extraordinary. coal produces 88%, virtually 90%, of your country's electricity. greenpeace has just today released a report saying that south africa has the most polluting of coal—fired power stations in the whole world. they found the world's most polluted blackspot, in terms of nitrogen dioxide, one of the key greenhouse gases, to be in your country. you have to transition away from coal. how are you going to do it? we are transitioning.

this is why, right now, as i speak to you, in the last four years, we've connected over 3,700 megawatts of clean energy, from solar, from wind, from biomass. as i understand it... in the last four years. you're the energy minister, correct me, correct me if i'm wrong, right now, renewables represent less than 4% of your energy mix. they are, but we are growing that. less than 4%! yes! the reality. and your own calculations and projections show that the amount of c02 emitted by your economy, because of this massive reliance on coal, the amount of co2 emissions is going to go up between 2020 and 2025, despite all of the promises your government made, along with all other governments as part of the paris climate accord. no, that is not correct.

right now we have the integrated resource plan, which is out for discussion. if you look at that, we are saying that by 2030... i've looked at it. ..20% of energy will be from renewable. your own irp plan projects that emissions will continue to rise between 2020 and 2025 unless i've missed something. we are saying right now what is out there being debated is looking at all the energy technologies, and what we are proposing is over 8,000 of wind, 8,000 megawatts. we are proposing close to 7,000 of solar, and we are talking... even the concentrated solar energy, we are talking about hydropower as well. your own country's esteemed climate action tracker, which is a scientific analysis programme from three different research organisations, says that your plan isn't at all consistent with

the paris agreement and with cutting global warming rises to less than two or even 1.5 celsius. not at all consistent. i would like to see some of those plans, because unfortunately there's a mixing of plans which are scientifically—based, and those from the lobby, because we presented this, and this is part of our paris agreement, which we did together. just a final thought, if you're serious about meeting your own commitments with regard to the paris climate agreement, why are you backpedalling on nuclear, which, for all its difficulties and expenses, is, in co2 terms, a much cleaner option. you're backpedalling on nuclear and you're still building new coal—fired power stations. what kind of strategic vision is this? it's a cost issue.

we are not saying we're not going to do nuclear, right now, it is an affordability issue, that was the bottom line. we'd love to have more nuclear because we've got a lot of expertise around that. nuclear energy‘s the most productive form of energy. as you know, we produce medical isotopes, we do pest control and all those issues, so we do love nuclear, but we need to do it in a way that we can sustain the cost. so you are really in a bind. you're telling me that eskom has the most mountainous debts, which frankly no amount of restructuring are going to get rid of any time soon. you also can't afford to cut out your dependence on coal because it's simply too expensive if you look at the options. i just don't see how south africa is going to come anywhere close to delivering clean growth. you are aware of the 27 projects that we signed two months ago which are for renewable energy? yes, i'm aware? i'm aware of specific projects. i'm aware of the structural challenge. renewables, right now,

3.4% of your energy mix. let's get real about the way south africa's economy works. stephen, we signed the 27 projects in spite of budgetary constraints because we made a commitment. as a government, we had to honour that. it's the same with the coal projects that we've done. we already made a commitment. so this is not something where we woke up and decided, that's the reality. the second reality we must look at is the fact that coal, and in south africa, we have towns that have developed around coal. when you transition, you need to make sure that you have alternatives. that's the reality. thejob issue is the reality. 80,000 jobs directly involved in coalmining. i2% of exports is coal and coal—related. again, if you're honest with me, and the world, you can't afford, given everything we've said about the state of south africa's economy, you can't afford to end your dependence on coal. we're going to end the dependence, but we're going to do this

transmission in a just manner, and not leave anybody behind. well, interesting you introduce the concept ofjustice, because in other areas... i want to expand our conversation into other areas where the anc has always talked aboutjustice, and where it appears mr ramaphosa is intent on delivering a new form ofjustice. let's talk about land. yes. ramaphosa indicated, and he met the zimbabwean president, talking about learning from zimbabwe, he indicated there must be land confiscation and expropriation as a form of economicjustice. how far is he going to take that? i'm hearing those words from you for the first time. what i do know that the president has spoken about is about expropriation without compensation. now, the process we are undertaking as a country is to say in the constitution there is the provision for reparations because we need to address the injustices of the past. but what the constitution says is that you can expropriate with just compensation

for public good. what we want to do now is not to leave it almost to mine or your interpretation, we want the constitution to be absolutely clear. when it says just and for public interest, can we spell it out? the concept has always been willing buyer, willing seller. no, no! that's just one of the ways. the constitution does have land expropriation in it, within the constitution. what we want is clarity. i'm quoting this line from the constitution, a just and equitable compensation. but now people in south africa, perhaps... please, please quote it properly. it says land can be expropriated in the public interest, without... without compensation.

it's there in the constitution. what we want... you don't think there's any obligation on south africa, the government, the state to deliverjust and equitable compensation. stephen, if you give me one minute, i'll explain it to you. the constitution also defends very strongly private property ownership. it does that. it's unequivocal. and we will not tamper with it. what we are saying is this justice must not only be about those who have land, it must be also justice for those who don't have land so that we can make sure that there is security of tenure, of land, for everybody. i know you are a very loyal member of your movement, the anc. you have been for a long time. i'm a patriot. does it worry you that a former patriot of your country, and anc stalwart, thabo mbeki, said this in a leaked document in september, "land confiscation," he said, "suggests that the anc has moved away from the fundamental principle of nonracialism. the anc has changed in character," he said. "it's no longer representative

of the people of south africa, rather, as its former president, jacob zuma, said, it is now a black party." it's unfortunate that is what happens when documents are leaked... because you can find out people's true feelings. mbeki's true feelings about the direction... let me tell you what president mbeki was saying, president mbeki was talking about the whole issue where it had been racialised in terms of saying they will take from white to give to black. the constitution, as i said, defends land rights and land ownership. this is about making sure that even those who do not have land because of the past system do get land, and can get land tenure so that they have security, they can use it for economic activities. this is what we're trying to address. so we're not going to wake up and say, "tomorrow we're going to take your land." that constitution, which we were part of drafting, we respect and we will make sure that it is not violated.

you're trying to make it sound so non—controversial, but the opposition leader, mmusi maimane, said recently the government approach "seeks to stop racial tension, it could amount to state—sanctioned theft." ijust wonder, as you say to me, the south african economy needs the support of the international community, as you said earlier, do you not worry that this particular land programme and policy may well frighten off the international community and international investment? i think what will frighten off investors is when the opposition becomes so disingenuous around issues. we have a parliamental process where the whole country has been involved, including the opposition, women's, youth organisations who have all made presentations, because if we do not address the land issue, even the investments we are talking about will go down the drain because there's land hunger.

there's even an absence of land to build homes for people. so it's not only farming. it's just for somebody to say, "this is my house and i own it and i have the title deeds to that." it's that basic. a final thought, ramaphosa in his state of the nation also said at the beginning of his term, "we are going to build a society defined by decency and integrity." how disappointed are you that respected researchers on corruption, such as kamal govind at the university of kwazulu—natal, have concluded after eight months that they see nothing new. "the cancer of corruption," he says, "is, infact, more insidious, and it remains a normal way of life for south africa." i don't know about south africa because we have the steinhoff scandal, where they've had to come to a commission to account, that's a private company. we have the issue of the banks. we've got a commission right now

looking at state capture, and that has become the basis for actually going the judicial route. i think what the president has done is there must never be an opportunity for anyone to say, "i'm being targeted politically." this has to be a properjudicial, not a populist, issue, so that everybody‘s rights are respected. thembisile majola, we have to end it there but i do thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much, thank you. many parts of the country had a largely dry halloween evening, but the rain has begun to pep up across central and eastern areas. through the night, these weather fronts will affect much of the central and eastern side of the uk. further west, light winds and clear skies mean it will be a chilly start to this morning with some frost for northern ireland, mist and fog in western scotland. further south and east, because of more cloud rain, it will be a milder start with temperatures 7—10 degrees. this morning will be a soggy one through central and eastern areas. some of the rain will be heavy through the morning.

but the band of rain heads east, becoming confined to the very far southeast. brighter skies to the west will filter through some areas. a few showers in western scotland, where there will be wind chill in the high ground, as their air will be cool. still fairly mild in the south and south—east, temperatures 11—12 at best. heading into friday, this ridge of high pressure means a fine start of the day, but to the west we see this deep area of low pressure, it is actually ex—hurricane 0scar. it will be a chilly start to friday, with fog and mist around. lengthy spells of sunshine. later in the day, it goes downhill towards the west. increasing wind and rain. temperature—wise, double figures for many of us, just about, in the afternoon. not to bad given the sunshine. this deep area of low pressure skirts past the north—west of the uk. it will some very windy weather friday night and saturday across the northern half the country, with a band of rain affecting

northern ireland, scotland, and into western parts of england and wales. but many parts of eastern england, the south—east, should see dry all day, with good spells of sunshine. a gusty day across the board with very windy conditions in the northwest. potentially disruptive wind gusts of 60 miles an hour. but temperature—wise in the mid—teens celsius across the board. we look to this next area of low pressure which will push up into the south. this will be not as intense as we expect on saturday, but could bring windy weather to the south—west corner with outbreaks of rain across a good portion of england and wales. some heavy in the south—west. sunshine for scotland and northern ireland with lighter winds there. temperatures 12—14 degrees. so yes, the weekend will be mild, especially on saturday. windy at times on saturday. gales in places.

some rain around but also some sunshine. welcome to newsday. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. the headlines: new detail on the murder of the journalist jamal khashoggi, a turkish prosecutor says he was strangled as soon as he entered the saudi consulate. pakistan's prime minister calls for calm after widespread protests when a court overturns a christian woman's blasphemy sentence. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: campaigning in the us for the crucial midterms enters the final week in what's being seen as referendum on president trump. and the men told they would never walk again. but thanks to a revolutionary spinal technique, they now can.