there was jubilation at mission control in california, after it survived a dramatic seven—minute plunge to the planet's surface. it's already sent back its first image from the red planet, kicking off two years of scientific discovery. president trump has suggested britain's brexit agreement with the eu could leave it unable to negotiate a free—trade agreement with the us. his comments, two weeks before a crucial vote in the british parliament, are a fresh blow to prime minister theresa may. ukraine has declared martial law in part of the country, after russia's seizure of three ukrainian navy ships. it follows a naval clash in the kerch strait, off the coast of crimea, which was annexed by russia in 2014. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. all the talk. i am stephen sackur.

—— welcome to hardtalk. president trump says he doesn't know whether president —— mohammed bin salman ordered the murder of jamal khashoggi and frankly, he doesn't seem to care. safe to assume that he also doesn't care about the hundreds of clerics, intellectuals and dissident activists locked up by mohammed bin salman‘s security forces. my guest today is abdullah alaoudh, a saudi exile whose father is facing charges that carry a death sentence. can anyone, oranything, challenge saudi authoritarianism? abdullah alaoudh, thank —— welcome

to hardtalk and thank you for joining me from chicago. thank you for posting me. let start on your reflections on a pretty remarkable and pretty grim two months for people like you, who knew jamal khashoggi, the saudi writer and journalist. let me ask you, were you, are you still, shocked and surprised by what happened to him? yes, iam surprised by what happened to him? yes, i am absolutely shocked. the atrocity of killing the veteran journalist and saudi figure, jamal khashoggi, was really saddening. and it was horrible in every way. you

have things in common with him, in a sense, both of you went into exile in the united states because he felt he could no longer live inside your homeland in the kingdom of saudi arabia and i know you spoke to him on several occasions, you are both highly political and had views about the need for reform inside saudi arabia. do you believe that he was in any way complacent about the degree to which his security was threatened by the saudi authorities? he spoke several times about the threats that he received. he was told at one time that he should go back to saudi arabia. put your mind back to saudi arabia. put your mind back to saudi arabia. put your mind back to before october two, would you have been willing to walk into a saudi diplomatic will become or would you have been too fearful to do it? i would hesitate,

would you have been too fearful to do it? iwould hesitate, but ifi was, andi do it? iwould hesitate, but ifi was, and i had connections that jamal khashoggi had and all of the relationships and the hopes, i might have hoped for it. so it is very natural for someone have hoped for it. so it is very naturalfor someone like have hoped for it. so it is very natural for someone like jamal khashoggi and his relationship and how he was received once by the saudi ambassador here are in dc and how he was treated and once an official called and offered him a job and he was given hopes at different points, it is very possible that i would fall for it, yeah. right now, much of the focus is on to which the degree it will be possible to trace a line of responsibility for this murder directly to the de facto ruler of the kingdom, mohammed bin salman.

the new york times had pretty reliable, suggesting that the cia believes that the line of authority goes direct to crown in its mohammed bin salman. president trump himself says it may be we don't know, maybe he did, he didn't, maybe we will never find out. what he did, he didn't, maybe we will neverfind out. what do he did, he didn't, maybe we will never find out. what do you think? well, i think, never find out. what do you think? well, ithink, saying never find out. what do you think? well, i think, saying that we may never find out is just a way to avoid the issue, to hold someone responsible for this heinous crime. is trying to avoid facing the nation and telling them who did it and why and telling them who did it and why and where? so, it is a way of avoiding the question of who did it and in what capacity the order came from. that is one point. the other

point about the issue is that if we are thinking who did it, well, see the fingerprints. who gave a death penalty to my father for similar views, of those held byjamal khashoggi? who arrested several feminists because they are peaceful activists and threatened them with the death penalty or a life sentence in prison? who put a foreign minister under house arrest in saudi arabia? who invaded, who actually launched strikes against yemen... you are asking a lot of pertinent questions are what is your answer? my questions are what is your answer? my answer is, whoever did all of these things was the mastermind behind all of these atrocities, is actually the person or the

individual behind the killing of jamal khashoggi. so who? i mean, let the viewers decide and let the... obviously you are not wanting to a nts obviously you are not wanting to ants are directly at your answers are directing us all towards mohammed bin salman, i get that, you are ina mohammed bin salman, i get that, you are in a very sensitive session and thatis are in a very sensitive session and that is in a way, what need to discuss with you. the saudi foreign minister ina discuss with you. the saudi foreign minister in a bbc interviewjust a short time ago sent the custodian of the two holy mosques, mohammed bin salman, area the two holy mosques, mohammed bin salman, are a red line. they represent every saudi citizen and every saudi citizen represents them and we will not tolerate any discussion of anything that is disparaging towards the monarch or a crown prince. have you, in a way being intimidated by those words? yes, of course. i will tell you what

the red line is, the red line is killing a journalist. the red line is launching strikes against civilians, the red line is seeking the death penalty against peaceful activists. the red line is giving life sentences for feminists and human rights defenders in saudi arabia. these are the true red line ‘s matches start with the people and their human rights and basic liberties of that they should enjoy in saudi arabia. these are the real red line is, if anybody crosses the red line is, if anybody crosses the red line, they should be held accountable. i am so mindful of your situation, you're talking me from the united states, in chicago, but every hour of everyday i know that you are thinking the fate of your father, who is there in a saudi prison, facing charges of terrorism, involvement of extremism, which

could lead to the imposition of the death penalty. how do you couch your words about what is happening in saudi arabia, given the reality that is yours and your families was that —— families? is yours and your families was that -- families? just saying that somebody is a red line is saying that whatever this person did, or whatever crime he may be accused of, it is just beyond the question and we should not hold anybody accountable, but just because we should not hold anybody accountable, butjust because we and outs him as a red line. if i said somebody is a red line, meaning that whatever it he did, he would not be held accountable. have you or close members of your family spoken to him the? —— him recently? members of your family spoken to him the? -- him recently? they have. the health condition of him fluctuated because of a lot of mistreatment and

he was deprived from sleep for a lot of time. and he was deprived from even basic medical care. he was handcuffed, chains were put on his feet, he was blindfolded for a lot of the time. interrogations continued for more than 2a hours, which is more than any law, even international law, allows. and the charges were just bogus and you know, he was transferred to a sham trial on 37 charges, including blocking government achievements, not praying enough for the ruler, receiving messages of inside rebellion against the government and things of that sort. people listening and watching around the world will not be familiar with your

father ‘s case. he is extremely well—known in saudi arabia as a cleric, an intellectual. he spent yea rs cleric, an intellectual. he spent years in prison in the 1990s because he was deemed to be dangerous and an associate of the muslim brotherhood. at one time he was seen to be a man that was admired by osama bin larded, and yet, in recent years he has been a propagator of reform, a more progressive scholar but also it seems that he voiced some scepticism about saudi arabia's international policies, including the effort to isolate qatar in recent times. there are various different reasons why your father may be locked up and facing those charges and possibly facing those charges and possibly facing the death penalty. why do you think the authorities have drawn after your father in the last year? — gone. one thing is that he has the popularity that even the state does not have. to give you one indication, my father on twitter has

14 million followers, double then what the king of saudi arabia has. so, popularity and legitimacy in the eye of the people is a thing that the state went after him for. if you ask me what legitimacy means, he came from a religious background, he combined two elements, the religious backgrounds and the islamic teaching, and at the same time he embraced their democratic, it he proposed progressive views and promoted that. so for authoritarian leaders in saudi arabia, someone who has all these will pose a threat,

meaning to pull the rug under any authoritative leadership and try to present as he presented in 2011, a petition that was so popular that 18,000 saudi citizens signed at that time. that petition isjust 18,000 saudi citizens signed at that time. that petition is just one 18,000 saudi citizens signed at that time. that petition isjust one page and it was titled, —— titled towards the state of rights and institutions. in that petition called for civil society institutions, for liberties in saudi arabia, the protection of the minorities, for empowering women and he, most importantly, called for an election of the consultative council, which is like a parliament like council which is nowjust appointed either king. the key point

which you, his son as well as your father have been very strong on in recent times, is that you see saudi arabia needing to shift to a much more constitutional monarch he sort of system and you personally have in recent months been very powerful in a criticism as to what you see as a trend towards authoritarianism and absolutism on behalf of mohammed bin salman. say that he shows signs of wanting to be a more absolute monarch than any of his predecessors, and yet i am aware that mohammed bin salman, in his early 30s, his mission is to modernise and transform the country. well, i'll tell you what, when he called for diversifying the saudi economy, he was right, but he took it from prominent economists like... who are

languished now in prison because of their economic views. when he called for social reforms and allowing women to drive, he took that from, you know, women like... and others who also now are put in prison because of their views. when he promoted and adopted the idea of moderate islam, he took it from my father's and his friends and he put them injail. he'sjust using these reforms in a very superficial way, partially to just pr and do some pr campaigns for the west and to convince them and also to just

exploit their ignorance of the local saudi society and diversity within that society. i understand your point. and, of course, it's personal and of course you're mindful all the time of what fate your father is going through, but there is a point here which some analysts of saudi arabia take very seriously, that the only way to deliver trans formation of change in saudi arabia, given the system they have, is for somebody to seize all the levers of power and force through change in a frankly authoritarian way and i'm going to quote to you professor bernard haeckel, who works at princeton, who isa haeckel, who works at princeton, who is a professor of middle east studies. he wrote this admittedly long before the murder of khashoggi, but he wrote of the mbs reform programme, he said the fact is mbs is trying to deal with a harsh truth about saudi. the kingdom is politically and economically

unstable, it's heading towards disaster. his message is one of authoritarian nationalism mixed with populism and in his view that is the only way to displace the traditional islamic hyper conservatism. do you not buy that in any way? no, i don't, because that's what bashar al—assad said when he came to power, he said he is modernised society, he's modernising syria, and he said at that time that he is, you know, faced with a lot of challenges and he had to take all the powers into his hands. that's what saddam hussein did, and that's how he, you know, established an alliance with a lot of powerful countries around the world at that time. it needed a few decades to realise who saddam hussein was at that time. when he can committed a lot of atrocities,

they tolerated some of his atrocities until it became really, really obvious and, you know, they we re really obvious and, you know, they were not able to understand at that time. that's how they realised what saddam hussein came to be saddam hussein as we know him now. for us... hussein as we know him now. for us... you think there's a direct and immediate parallel between mohammed bin salman, who franklyjust a couple of years ago was the darling of the strategic western powers, you think there's a direct parallel between him and saddam hussein and bashar al—assad, or even half as al assad before him? of course i do. mbsjust assad before him? of course i do. mbs just used the same pr campaigns that were used. he tried to convince the west of his reformist agenda, but at the same time, he grabbed hold powers. he even cracked down on

his relatives and other royals he deemed arrivals to him. he cracked down the hardest on those who really have the real agenda and were able to establish a relationship with the people and the west. so, abdullah, if you feel so strongly about all of that, what was your reaction just a short time ago when donald trump came out and said, look, saudi arabia, whatever happened to khashoggi in terms of who ordered the killing and how it works out, whatever happened, saudi arabia is going to remain our us steadfast partner. he said it's all about america first. i'm not going to destroy the economy of our country by being foolish with saudi arabia. he talks about the $100 billion worth of arms deals that are in the pipeline. he talks about all the

potential for pipeline. he talks about all the potentialfor american pipeline. he talks about all the potential for american business to tap into the modernisation agenda inside saudi arabia. donald trump is convinced that it's in america's interest to stick with mbs. convinced that it's in america's interest to stick with mbsi convinced that it's in america's interest to stick with mbs. i think it's not in the american interest to put all the eggs in one basket, which is one powerful individual, while at the same time, this powerful individual is, you know, putting all the region's stability into risk. and also, it's not in the national interest to, you know, just ignore the vast majority of the royalfamily, even ignore the vast majority of the royal family, even in ignore the vast majority of the royalfamily, even in saudi arabia. and it's not in the national interest to just allow somebody to destabilise saudi arabia and the region and to, you know, risk all these good relationships between the united states and saudi arabia by just, you know, establishing a relationship to one individual instead of building a long—term

individual... with the saudi institutions, saudi royal family, with the saudi system itself. you talk of risk, but what of the risk on the flipside of that? what of the risk of seeing mbs undermined, seeing power in saudi arabia slip away from the ruling family and, in so away from the ruling family and, in so doing, see a rainy and interests in the region strengthened, whether it be in lebanon, whether it be in yemen, whether it be in the gulf itself? that seems to be the perspective donald trump and his associates in the white house have, frankly they need saudi arabia as a regional partner and they see mbs as a powerful representative of the anti— iranian interest. there's a consensus within the saudi institutions and the saudi royal family and the saudi people that iran could not... could pose a

threat in the region and should be held accountable for any crimes committed, and to be stopped from interfering in syria or elsewhere. but, at the same time, it's not wise and it's not in the national interest... it's not a strategic interest... it's not a strategic interest to build a relationship with one guy who tried to present himself as the one who could solve all these issues. in reality, he's creating more issues and not solving the iranian issue. yeah, with that in mind then, are you proposing, as you sit in chicago as a saudi exile, are you proposing the united states government should impose much tougher sanctions on saudi? they've done targeted sanctions on 27 individuals, do you want them to go much further? do you want to see an end to arms sales to saudi arabia? what i want to see is building a

long—term relationship with the saudi people, with the saudi institutions, and that's much more important and more... institutions, and that's much more importantand more... i mean institutions, and that's much more important and more... i mean easier than any other measure. it's building relationships with the saudi people, with the saudi royal institutions, with the majority of the royal... with the saudi royal family. if people thought, well, you are against the state, it's not true. we are against the royal family, it's not true. we are against the saudi people, i am one of the saudi people and in many times have represented the saudi people in different ways. we are just against one, you know, individual who has all the... who, you know, but hey in a way that destabilised saudi arabia itself. it's in the best interests of saudi arabia, the region and the us to establish a long—term relationship again. i want to end by bringing it

back to the personal, because your father faces those charges, which could lead to his execution. i salute your preparer of nurse to come on this show had a very difficult time, but what do you think is your best chance of saving your father's life right now? well, i always believe in pressure and i believe why. .. i i always believe in pressure and i believe why... i mean, it's one of the reasons why the attorney general‘s death penalty against my father is to send a strong message against whoever speaks. so, father is to send a strong message against whoeverspeaks. so, our message bag is we will speak, we will still speak regardless. my father's message will always be there. it will not die. the message ofjamal there. it will not die. the message of jamal khashoggi will always be there, we will always fight for

freedom, liberties, basic human rights and democracy in saudi arabia. abdullah alaoudh, we have to end there but i thank you for being on hardtalk. thank you so much. hello there. well, we certainly started off the working week on a pretty chilly note for most of us, didn't we? if it was too much for you, i can offer you something just that little bit milder. but unfortunately, it comes at a price, turning increasingly wet and windy over the next few days. let's take a look at the main culprits. it's these areas of low pressure pushing in from the atlantic, and they will move across the uk a little bit later on today, and they will bring some extremely wet weather at times, but also some mild weather. so we lose that easterly flow that's been coming in off the north sea. the winds swing round to a south—westerly,

coming in with that area of low pressure, drags in the milder air. but the winds will be gusting to gales or severe gales over the next couple of days. we start off, though, with a little bit of patchy mist and fog around. but as the breeze picks up, that'll help lift that. a chilly—ish start, as you can see, with temperatures into low single figures first thing. but it won't be long before that cloud and rain starts to move into the south—west. so it's going to be a wet start across cornwall and south wales, and into northern ireland as well. slow improvement here for you as we go into the afternoon. let's take a look at the finer detail for this afternoon and see what's in prospect. there's the brighter weather starting to push into cornwall through the afternoon. double figures, but some heavy rain into the south—west, across wales, the midlands and stretching up into the north of england. the rain shouldn't arrive into the east of england, so here it should stay dry and relatively bright. but we'll see most of the rain starting to ease out of northern ireland as we go through the afternoon. it stays relatively dry, windy with it across much of scotland.

by the end of the day, you can see that rain starting to show its hand across the south—west. so, that moves through overnight. the next area of low pressure moves through. and thenjust look at the isobars squeezed together. that's where the strongest of the winds are going to be across the southern flank of that area of low pressure. so we could see gusts of winds in excess of 60mph in exposed coasts, maybe higher, and it will bring some heavy rain particularly through northern ireland, south—west scotland and north—west england. although the rain is lighter in nature further south, it's still going to be pretty windy with it as well. in terms of the feel of things, i did promise you something a little bit milder. double digits, in fact, mid—teens for many. but when you factor in the wind and the rain, it's probably not going to feel very great out there. and it's not long before we see another area of low pressure moving in, bringing some heavy rain. this time, the emphasis is across central and southern parts of england on thursday. so, wet and windy again to the south on thursday. something drier, brighter

and a little less windy by the end of the week. this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top story: a warning for britain, as president trump says the brexit deal could damage us—uk trade. right now if you look at the deal, they may not be able to trade with us they may not be able to trade with us and that wouldn't be a good thing. i don't think they meant that. i don't think the prime minister meant that and hopefully she will be able to do something about that. spiralling tensions over sunday's sea clash between russia and ukraine. we talk to the commander of the ukrainian navy. france counts the cost of nationwide protests against fuel price rises. president macron prepares to address the nation.