near a busy christmas market. in an emergency meeting in paris, the country's interior minister confirmed the gunman is still on the run after killing three people and wounding at least 12 others. the gunman is known to the authorities, who have begun a terror investigation. officials say he had been previously identified as a national security risk, while a raid on his apartment has uncovered a number of grenades. the french government says it is taking immediate steps to stregthen security on its borders. pressure is mounting on britain's prime minister, theresa may, from within her own conservative party. leading pro—brexit members of parliament have told the bbc they are increasingly confident they have enough support to trigger a vote of no confidence in her. it comes as she visted european leaders in an attempt to rescue her brexit deal. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk,

i'm stephen sackur. it took former cricketer imran khan two decades of political slog to win power in pakistan. it has taken his critics just months to decide he is out of his depth. they point to the country's crippled economy, propped up by emergency loans, despite imran‘s promise to end the "begging bowl" culture. well, my guest today is pakistan's finance minister, asad umar. is the pti government strong enough to put pakistan on a new course? asad umar, in islamabad, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you. you are one of the key ministers in imran khan's government. why do you think the hope and excitement generated by imran‘s election victory has worn off so very quickly? actually, it hasn't. if you look at the pakistani media and listened to the political talk shows, and maybe hear some of the discussions going on in the parliament, you might be led into believing what you just said. but in reality, you know, when the first 100 days of the government ended, there was a lot of focus, a number of services got carried out. and if you look at the service, a very clear majority of pakistanis think

the country is moving in the right direction, it is moving towards a place where it is better than where it was earlier, and hope is very much in the air. the truth is, the country is going in the direction that imran promised for it. in fact, the press have taken to calling him mr u—turn. he said i would be ashamed to go abroad and ask for money. well, the truth is that is precisely what he has been doing. well, but when the government came in it was a well—known that pakistani needed some kind of a bailout. and i am not saying that today. i said this repeatedly in interviews to print in the national media before, going into the elections, and it is not something to be proud of. so if he says i am ashamed of it, you have to have pretty low respect to do what the prime minister of pakistan and the finance minister of pakistan have had to do in current circumstances and be proud of that fact. but the

real challenges, the real decision, and that is how we will be judged in the future, we take the decisions of setting the country's economy in a path where this is going to be what i repeatedly said would be the last imf programme, if we get into one right now, and for that very clear direction has been set. pakistan has been using a growth strategy which is imported capital, finance, consumption led. that has let us repeatedly into these current account deficit cycles, it has taken oui’ account deficit cycles, it has taken our external indebtedness to a level which is not sustainable until we move pakistan to a domestic resource immobilised productivity led export oriented economy, we are not going to be getting out of this begging bowl syndrome. and in the very first 100 days we have taken clear decisions which a move in the country in that direction. very interesting you say that, minister, but if one cuts through the economic jargon, it seems to me that what you have done this sort out loans from those who are going to impose the

least conditions upon those loans. you looked at the imf at the very beginning, you wanted a big wodge of money from them. some people set up to $12 million —— $12 billion. then you realise there were going to be very serious conditions imposed upon it so you cut the bid to $6 billion, and you haven't even agreed that, and you haven't even agreed that, and instead you have raced over to the chinese and the saudis and taken their money, because they don't impose the same rigorous conditions. so you can't convince me that this isa so you can't convince me that this is a new start for pakistan. there are actually two different parts to that thing. first of all the sequence that thing. first of all the sequence of actions is not exactly consistent with what you just said. when i became finance minister i said we will be reaching out to bilateral countries, as well as starting a dialogue with the imf and being able to do this thing simon tenuously, because there is no time to first work out a strategy which is your preferred option. and that is your preferred option. and that is exactly what we did. within ten days of becoming the finance minister, i had reached out to imf, invited their team over, and that

tea m invited their team over, and that team did come in, staff mission came in. they issued a report. we started a formal dialogue. the mission was here in the month of november and that dialogue continues even today. well, that is all very well, minister, that is all very well, and i understand these things aren't altogether simple, but the bottomline is the imf ties giving you up to six or 7 billion us dollars to some very serious reforms that you must make to stop living beyond your means, including hiking energy prices, for example. you don't want to do that, that is politically difficult, which seems to me why you are so tempted to take the money from saudi arabia, for example, where they are not imposing those kinds of conditions. if you allowed me to complete my answer, you would have gotten a response to this part as well, that is what i said at the second part of it. and thatis said at the second part of it. and that is we have not waited for the imfto impose that is we have not waited for the imf to impose any sanctions on us or impose any conditions on us. to do what we think is required for the economy. in the very first 100 days,

we have increased gas prices, we have increased electricity prices, we have put in a supplementary finance budget, we have increased taxes. we have been doubled at the policy rate has been increased by the central bank, the rupee has been devalued, the currency has been adjusted either central bank. so both the monetary policy and fiscal policy have been moving in the very direction of the reforms that are needed. we don't need imf to dictate that to us for us to do that because we believe that is what is necessary. however, the path for reform is different in the eyes of the imf, as we stand today, versus what we think is right. and that is what we think is right. and that is what the dialogue is going on right 110w. what the dialogue is going on right now. there is no difference of opinion in terms of what needs to be done. it is the pace, the sequence and the extent which is being discussed. well, the pace and the extent, they are pretty important differences, i would suggest. but you keep avoiding the references i keep making to your decision to take

saudi money. when everybody else around the world was utterly appalled and disgusted by what we saw happen in the saudi consulate in istanbul with the murder of the saudi writer and journalist jamal khashoggi, the pakistani consulate your mac government held its nose, decided to send top representation to that investment forum —— pakistani government. to that investment forum in riyadh, and your prime minister, imran khan, went out of his way to say nice things about the saudis and as a result you got an assistance package of around $6 billion. when we talk about shame, should you not be ashamed for that? well, i would should you not be ashamed for that? well, iwould be should you not be ashamed for that? well, i would be happy to be ashamed of standing up with a country with whom i've had close bilateral relations, and both countries which have supported each other over yea rs, have supported each other over years, and i've never lectured on what kind of a system that country should hold. maybe the western

leaders should be ashamed of themselves, talking about democracy, talking about freedoms, and then reaching out into the same saudi pockets to take out billions of dollars of business deals. the leaders of the western world, the leaders of the western world, the leader of the free world, mr donald trump, stands up and ultimately says iam trump, stands up and ultimately says i am getting too much business from saudi arabia for me to worry about what happened to khashoggi, so maybe some of the western leaders should be ashamed of themselves. we are just being consistent in the bilateral relationship, which will remain the same whoever is in power. finance minister, i take your point about donald trump. if he was sitting on the hardtalk chair, believe me, i would be discussing his values, the way he treats his relationship with saudi arabia. as it happens, i've got you in the chair. i come back to the point. you have taken in the last month or two $6 billion of assistance from riyadh. that gives the saudis real average over you, as i riyadh. that gives the saudis real average over you, as i understand it. one of the conditions is that you send some of the military

personnel to work in saudi arabia. you say that they won't be fighting in yemen, but they will certainly be training the forces that to fight in yemen. is that a price that you, in all honesty, think is worth paying to get yet more bailout money? the pakistani relationship with saudi arabia goes back half a century. this is very interesting, stephen. when i was born, my father, who was working on the pakistan army at that point in time, was in saudi arabia and he had a meeting with the man who became the king, who gave me a small koran. so this is a relationship which goes back 50 yea rs, relationship which goes back 50 years, it has nothing to do with khashoggi, it has nothing to do with yemen. pakistani troops have been present in saudi arabia and we have had a military relationship which spanned half a century, and that relationship is not about to break because we may agree or disagree with saudi arabia on how to handle the yemen crisis. the thing is, if we move beyond saudi arabia to your

relationship with china, i see yet more seeds of trouble being sown by your desperation to get your hands on foreign currency, to save your parlous budget. the chinese relationship involves a huge investment from china in this cpec, the china pakistan at the economic corridor, much of it going into vast projects in the larger stand. we know that many people in that very undeveloped part of your country are furious about the impact the chinese money and the chinese labour is having on their particular region —— balochistan. again, are you sure that all of the compromises you are making to get your hands on the cash are worth it? i'm not sure which compromise you are referring to, but stephen, i thought foreign direct investment was something that was

good. that is what i learn from western economic schools. that is the economics that i was taught. western economic schools. that is the economics that i was taughtm all depends, minister, it all depends minister whose interest it is interested in. who has got the leveraged, whose interest is it really serving? so what is supposed to bea really serving? so what is supposed to be a good deal is where the interests of both the investor and the country in which the investment is taking place is served. nocera interests are served, and that is exactly what is going on in cpec. as far as the vast number of people in balochistan being furious at what the chinese are doing there, on our last visit to china, when i went there with the prime minister, the chief minister of balochistan, the elected chief minister of balochistan, who represented boys of the people of balochistan, was with us, and he was eager to have the chinese engagement in balochistan increased, versus what is right now. so i'm sure which of these people are furious about the chinese engagement in balochistan. why does your government not go public with all of the arrangements, the

financial details, behind china's loa ns, financial details, behind china's loans, and in investments, in pakistan, including rates of interest, labour terms and conditions, all of those things. many people in pakistan have asked you to be completely transparent about the nature of the deals you strike with the chinese, and the pakistani government has always refused. that's actually not true. there are... if i divided into two different parts, most of the investments which have come in have been what are called the independent projects, the ipps, and those made under a transparent policy which the regulator puts into place so those terms and conditions, you can go on the website and find out what the terms and conditions for those investments are. as far as the loans are concerned, the loan information, there is a lot of mistrust probably built around the media narrative which has been going around. when the imf team came in, we shared all

the imf team came in, we shared all the details with them. as transparently as they wanted. after the first meeting, i didn't hear any questions from them, because there was nothing to hide. did you see the words are not long ago of mike pompeo, the us secretary of state, when he was asked about his view of the imf helping pakistan in the future? he said make no mistake we are going to watch what the imf is doing very closely. there is no rationale for imf dollars associated with american dollar is being used to bail out chinese bondholders or china itself? we will worry about our china debt problem. mr pompeo should worry about his china debt problem. usa is the biggest debtor in the world to china, $1.3 billion. what does pakistan oh to china? less than 10% of pakistan's foreign debt, 90% is not chinese. we have been in 12 different imf programmes in the last

20 years. why has it never been asked of which country has lent to pakistan? why is this suddenly all this interest in how much money has come from china. why were the same question is not being asked when the lenders or western banks? you told me that the balochi people are thrilled china is putting so much money and infrastructure into their region. it is a little embarrassing, isn't it, when, as recently, in the port city that you are trying to develop as a mega port at the end of this sort of chinese transportation infrastructure through the region, it isa infrastructure through the region, it is a little embarrassing at the time you were taking delegates i believe from more than 20 countries to look at the potential of all of these projects, gunmen shot dead three workers, injured five others and that was the fourth fatal shooting in the area in a few short months. the security situation, the degree of insecurity around that

region and the anger that i have referred to that is generated among some by what is happening, that is a real threat to stability in baluchistan. this is not anger of the people of baluchistan. these are activities sponsored terrorists who received training, funding material from outside pakistan, and is there a serious attempt to try to destabilise the lodge is done, and through that try to subvert cpec? of course there is. there is a concerted effort. who is doing that? there is no disagreement. in your opinion, who is doing that, these external forces ? opinion, who is doing that, these external forces? led opinion, who is doing that, these externalforces? led by opinion, who is doing that, these external forces? led by india, opinion, who is doing that, these externalforces? led by india, of course. so, is there a terrorist intervention in baluchistan? yes. what the people of baluchistan thought, there has been expressed through the free will of the people by electing the government of baluchistan which stands by cpec who

wa nt baluchistan which stands by cpec who want greater cpec presence in the province. let's talk about the big picture in pakistan. imran khan came to power, you became finance minister promising a new era of fairness in your country, where every individual pakistani would get afairshake. every individual pakistani would get a fair shake. the situation today is that 45% of children under the age of five show signs of undernourishment and stunted growth. you have some of the worst education figures in all of south asia. and at the very same time, only 800,000 pakistani is part of a population of more than 200 million pay any significant tax. if you are to change that situation, it is gonna require the most massive, thoroughgoing reform. those are the very reforms that we have been working on despite the severe balance of payment crisis. the generation aspect is central to be

able to deal with the horrendous challenges that we have, you are absolutely right about that, the health situation, the education situation needs drastic reform and for that you need revenue, for that you need the revenue authority fixed, so what are the things we've done? we have separated tax policy from tax administration which is absolutely central to the reform effort. almost the entire top leadership of the revenue authority has been changed. we have made changes in law which allows the application of modern technology, use of data analytics, algorithms, to figure out where tax evasion is taking place, who is evading taxes to be able to go after them. we have developed this list of high net worth individuals who are evading taxes, 3100 of them have already been issued notices and a follow—up has been done, the database is more than 700,000, but we wanted a first pick up on the big ones, make an example and expand the net. and i can go on. it is interesting, it is

interesting you alight upon tax evasion and of course that's one element of an accountable, transparent system of governance. another way of looking at that is looking at the state of the media and the right to free expression. imran khan and your government are accused by the committee to protect journalists in a statement released recently of aiding and abetting a situation in your country where the pakistani army has "quietly but effectively set restrictions on reporting, lines of control which effectively gag the media." in the interest of open and transparent governance, you personally must be fighting that, are you? the need for pakistani democracy is a media which is free to express its opinion and get the facts to the people of pakistan. we, as democrats, have a vested interest in a free media. you don't have a free media. you have

journalists who are being disappeared by shadowy intelligence agencies. you have an opposition party who is saying our country is today under the grip of a silent martial law. that's very nice and dandy of the opposition leader to say that, but if in the last three and a half months you can mention the name of a single journalist who has disappeared all come under any kind of threat i would like to know because i would like to stand up for that journalist. the because i would like to stand up for thatjournalist. the need forfree media is absolutely paramount. the government of imran khan stands by that responsibility, there is a need for bringing some kind of accountability into this whole space of media and social media so that people cannot spread false information. but it can't be made an excuse for gagging people's expression, right or freedom excuse for gagging people's expression, right orfreedom of expression. all you have to do,

stephen, is what one evening of television and you will find out how free the media is, how the government gets ripped into and criticised. on that point, i will recommend you speak to the veteran and respected journalist who said he has lived through the dictatorship of general zhia buzz is right now is one of the worst times i have seen for journalist, we one of the worst times i have seen forjournalist, we get threatening phone calls, people are disappeared, we have fear and self—censorship, so if you want to know what's happening in pakistani media today maybe you should speak to him —— zia.|j in pakistani media today maybe you should speak to him -- zia. i have a lot of respect for him. with due respect, he has forgotten what has happened. journalists were in jail, they were tortured, there was public flogging ofjournalists. so, with all due respect, maybe he's... maybe his memory starting to fade and he doesn't remember what's going on there. but that shouldn't be a benchmark. we should not say we are better... i stand for freedom of

media as much as muhammad zia does. if you stand for a free, well governed pakistan, very different from what we have seen in the past, where extremism doesn't triumph, how worried are you that imran khan has com pletely worried are you that imran khan has completely failed to stand up for the rights of aasia bibi since she was released from prison. the supreme court said she should be released after she languished in prison for years in a blasphemy case, and yet she hasn't been allowed to leave the country. how disgusted are you as a minister in the government by your own government's failure to protect her right. imran khan's government believes in the rule of law and the supremacy of the law. we believe in the tri— tamil system ofjustice. the courts decided what was the right system. it was —— decision. it was not for the government to decide on the government stood by that decision. so putting any blame on the government on either the release

of aasia bibi or her lack of travel abroad, neither of these disk decisions were taken by pakistan so you cannot give us credit or discredit for that. well, it is not for me... iam discredit for that. well, it is not for me... i am not doling out the credit or the discredit. i am listening to human rights activists like sherry rehman who said aasia bibi is still suffering profoundly despite her acquittal. imran khan has lost all credibility. he can't make decisions to uphold the rule of law. his politics revolves around religion and u—turns. things really haven't changed very much at all, haven't changed very much at all, have they? maybe sherry ran an hasn't heard about the fact that those who created a law and order situation after that incident — that decision was taken, who destroyed public property, who issued threatening statements are facing accountability perhaps for the first time in decades in pakistan at growth three maybe this change has not yet been informed to ms sherry

rehman. i would strongly suggest that she should go through the newspapers of the last few weeks and she will find out what is happening is truly unprecedented in the last 30 years pakistan. let and on a personal note, if we may, minister. you know that there are countries in the west that have offered safe haven to aasia bibi, would you, never mind your loyalty to the government, whatever, on the most human and personal level would you like to see aasia bibi allowed to leave pakistan and make a new life for herself in a safe third country? i would like every citizen of pakistan to be able to live freely and safely if they chose to do so in pakistan for them to do so in pakistan, and if they want to live abroad, for them to live abroad. but these decisions on whether something which is not yet fully decided by the supreme court, a final decision on appeal has been taken, whether the travel freedom should be allowed or not is a decision for the court

to take, and only for the court today. minister asad umar, i thank you very much indeed for on hardtalk. hello. you can expect a definite chill in the air over the next few days, particularly as a biting wind picks up. but, for western parts of the uk, there is a little bit of rain in the forecast. what we've got on the satellite picture from a little earlier on is this stripe of cloud. it's a frontal system pushing in from the atlantic. it is bringing some outbreaks of rain, but whereas we might noramlly expect a front to sweep through, bringing rain for all of us, this front is running up against some resistance, this area of high pressure blocking the front‘s progress. so it won't get much further than the south—west of england, wales, northern ireland,

south—west scotland. here some rain, but elsewhere, wednesday getting off to a largely dry if rather cloudy start, with the odd fog patch. through the day, we should see brighter conditions spreading from the east, so more in the way of sunshine, but with that, some colder air spreading in from the east, as well. so the mildest weather will be in the west, 10 degrees in belfast, in stornoway and in plymouth. now, as we go through wednesday evening into the night, we'll see more and more clear skies filtering through. still a bit of patchy cloud, but where the skies stay clear and starry for any length of time where you are, it is going to get a little bit chilly. you see the pale green and blue colours here on our temperature chart. our towns and cities around about two, three, or four degrees, but some spots in the countryside can expect a touch of frost. and then into thursday, well, this weather battleground continues. frontal systems still trying to bring rain in from the west, high pressure blocking their progress, and around this high, at this stage we're going to have an increasingly brisk east or south—easterly wind, and that is going to make it feel cold.

so on thursday, any wet weather really confined to the far south—west of the country, particularly parts of cornwall. elsewhere largely dry, apart from the odd shower, just sprinkling in across the north sea coast. there will be some spells of sunshine, but look at the strength of the wind, particularly in some southern and western areas. and temperatures — well, on the thermometer, not particularly impressive. but add on the strength of the wind, this is what it's going to feel like. if you're spending your day in the channel islands, it'll feel subzero, norwich and birmingham feeling like freezing. a very, very chilly feel to the day. now, on friday the winds will be lighter, so it may not feel as cold, even though the temperatures will still be quite low. a change, as you can see, though, as we get on into saturday, because those fronts in the atlantic will make a bit more progress by this stage. we'll see some windy weather, some very wet weather for some, and as the front runs into cold air, especially over high ground in the north, there could be some snow. this is the briefing,

i'm sally bundock. our top story: a massive manhunt in the french city of strasbourg, after a gun attack leaves at least three people dead and a dozen wounded. the gunman's known to the authorities, who've begun a terror investigation. france's government says its taking immediate steps to strengthen security across the country. britain's prime minister tours europe, trying to rescue her brexit deal. but at home, a leadership challenge looks increasingly likely. a special report on the migrants rescued from the english channel, as they desperately try to reach the british coast. out on bail.