tv Dateline London BBC News December 15, 2018 11:30am-12:01pm GMT
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hello and welcome to dateline london, the programme which pitches some of the uk's leading columnists against the foreign correspondents who file stories for the folks back home with the dateline ‘london‘. this week, theresa may's mps decide her career can die another day after the prime minister reaches the same conclusion about her own brexit deal. from russia with love — a gun activist pleads guilty to conspiracy, and donald trump's lawyer is sentenced, he says, for covering up donald trump's "dirty deeds". but are we any closer to the truth of the alleged russia connection? with me: jeff mcallister, us writer and brodcaster, tim montgomerie, journalist and founder of a website for british conservatives. uk political commentator yasmin ali—bhai—brown, and thomas kielinger, for many years the german ‘paper die welt‘s man in london, now a biographer of both angela merkel and the queen. by any measure, the british conservative party is among the oldest and the most successful of political parties in any democracy. it's also one of the most brutal — when a leader is failing, it generally doesn't let sentiment cloud itsjudgment.
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on wednesday, having pulled the parliamentary vote on the brexit deal because she would lose, theresa may faced — and survived — a vote of no confidence in her leadership. she remains prime minister of brexit. one third of her 300—plus mps wanted her to go. the next day, this most effective of vote—winning machines, these ruthlessly pragmatic politicians, were taking lumps out of one another. the chancellor called the brexiteers in his party "extremists", they accused him of "turning on your own party". a former attorney general said brexit "is at risk of tearing us apart". a minister in the foreign office ventured that "after the apocalypse, all that will be left will be ants and tory mps complaining about europe and their leader". that same day, theresa may went to brussels asking for help. she got nothing. tim montgomerie, the spanish daily newspaper posed this question rhetorically, i expect. why should
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brussels concede anything to a prime minister who lack support back home? indeed. and why should brussels concede anything when perhaps a concession doesn't even guarantee the withdrawal agreement passing. this is the great problem. normally when they come on programmes, we may be ina when they come on programmes, we may be in a mess but they have a clear idea of something that will make a difference, that will take us all forward , difference, that will take us all forward, but i'm getting to the point now where i don't know what the obvious solution is to this problem, and i'm sure brussels things exactly the same. theresa may is sticking doggedly to her withdrawal agreement, but even if she got the legal guarantees she is seeking on the backstop, she called the vote off this week because she was probably 100 votes short. 100 votes, that many? getting a lot of those back, you would even lose the vote on her withdrawal agreement. liam fox was quoted as saying and not even sure cabinet will agree to
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it being voted on again. are we at a point with the other ministers and her cabinet. flexing their muscles? the rules of the conservative party mean that if you challenge earth leader and feel in a vote of no—confidence, you are safe for a year. there is no way backbench tory mps can challenge the prime so there will be much more expectation on conservative mps on cabinet ministers to be more difficult, if you like, to theresa may and to start asserting themselves much more aggressively, because we are now just two or three months away from having to resolve something that at the moment looks unresolvable with theresa may's current plan. amber rudd, who was home secretary and came back as work and pensions secretary, said we need to reach out, find a consensus in parliament, not just within our own out, find a consensus in parliament, notjust within our own party. she
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will not get it. actually, it is difficult for me as a feminist to say this because at times before i felt the way to rescind may is being treated by this gang of hounding men of extremists was not good, but i am reaching the conclusion that the problem is to rescind may. she can't be tried to anyone. it is extraordinary, she is a collegiate person. she leaves her and about. i'm not talking about the pounds here, and talking about ordinary normal conservatives. she sounds to me more and more like to see —— julius caesar, i have to say. all consuming, i know what is best for the country, i am the voice of state. we will see the ides of march
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comment on her soon, i think. she was full in the home office, she created the hostile atmosphere towards immigrants. it is all about her. i would say, towards immigrants. it is all about her. iwould say, i understand towards immigrants. it is all about her. i would say, i understand this argument, but structurally she has been asked to deliver something that is impossible, this is the real problem. fundamentally, the referendum means that parliament does not know what to do because we have to honour the people's vote, evenif have to honour the people's vote, even if it wasn't entirely overwhelming. that is the philosophy. she has to try and deliver a brexit of some sort. even the brexit compromise that you cobble together, which is the most that the european union will ever possibly go for, the conservative party never would go for. i don't think talking to people and being nice to them would square that circle. what i'm saying is she is
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not a political pragmatist. she shouldn't have called for the election for starters. to think she could pull off an election was one of her biggest mistakes. then joined the weakness of not calling the boat. she puts herself across, she even boat. she puts herself across, she eve n w0 re boat. she puts herself across, she even wore blue and carried a handbag. we have lost such respect in europe and across the world.|j handbag. we have lost such respect in europe and across the world. i am tempted to disagree, yasmin. on many issues i am your ally, especially about what you said about these men folk ganging up on theresa may, i felt exactly as she did. there is something in her determination which makes we think that you want this whole exercise to feel. she was an original remainer. she inherited a toxic charge to put brexit through and she is leading us through all
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these hopes to prove that this is an impossible proposition for this country to leave, all other options remaining will feel by the wayside and by default there will be one option left, which is to have people's vote. she is a stubborn woman. stop an all right, but in the pursuit of the impossible. every time... every time she said she wouldn't do something, she does the opposite. where is the grand plan? it isa opposite. where is the grand plan? it is a machiavellian idea thinking she wanted to feel. she may have no option anyway. we will either crash out or see some kind of system that we can't see any parliamentary majority for. the only thing that makes any sense as a second boat. thomas, let me ask you a question that i haven't heard a satisfactory and so on. the backstop is not on
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the table, leo varadkar has said. we believe that is the reason she can't get this thing through. the purpose of the backstop is to prevent a hard border. if there is no—deal brexit, there will be a hard border. so why is the european union not prepared to concede on the backstop?|j is the european union not prepared to concede on the backstop? i don't think the european union knows what they want or not. they have so far decided to leave it to the british people. this country up its mind. i'm sure are borrett as people in this country as to what to do next. there are hoping... the idea you could have negotiated trade deal with britain within three years is out of the question. you can't get trade deals that quickly. even though we are already aligned in so many ways? it took seven years for the deal with canada. i don't think
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thatis the deal with canada. i don't think that is the answer. it is doubly ironic for theresa may to go looking for a wet nurse for brexit in europe of all places. my hunch is she wants to see it feel and then go to people's vote. i'm not sure she would trustjohn club jumper with a baby! in terms of the conservative party, what happened this week? the boat was triggered, the no—confidence vote. she has lost support amongst the brexiteers, but also quite a lot of other mps who don't fit in that camp would be strong brexiteers, yet she is still in office. she is, but the rebellion she suffered this week, 117 conservative mps voted against, third of her party, that was when
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she promised to step down before the next election and she promised to get legal guarantees for the backstop. she didn't get that, i think you would've seen the rebellion of nearly half of the party. this is a woman who called an unnecessary election and lost the tory majority. so why do conservative mps believe her when she says i can get these assurances, when there was no evidence that?” think they are desperate. like a lot of us around this table, seeing any way forward is incredibly difficult. it is gridlock. one of the things that my industry need to take some responsibility for, the way we tell the story, the eu is bullying us, it's being uncompromising. as i
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think the prime minister of luxembourg said, brexit was your decision, not ours. we are recollected, we believe in what you're doing. it may be difficult... we have negotiated very badly, though. agreeing to the divorce settlement. britain brought this on to herself, no foreign foes stare at her down and challenged. it was all by her own wanting. the country has always been united when it comes against some foreign foe, now you have a domestic issue. this is a civil war. it have a domestic issue. this is a civilwar. it has have a domestic issue. this is a civil war. it has been ripped asunder, it is shocking. in some ways, it depends how you analyse the
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brexit boat, i don't think people who voted for brexit understood the strange things about backstop some trade deals. if they feel that they wa nt to trade deals. if they feel that they want to be part of this organisation, but the majority didn't want to be part of it, everything else is detailed for the lawyers. everybody says it all has to be legal, but poland is support to be legal, but poland is support tojoin the euro, to be legal, but poland is support to join the euro, nobody believes they will. we should be careful not to fall in with this thing that is happening here, it is all about emotion. this country more than others has never fallen emotion. this country more than others has neverfallen in emotion. this country more than others has never fallen in with emotional politics. i grew up in an african country and if you want to see emotional politics, theyjust beat each other up in the ugandan parliament. let's be rational and talk about this in a sensible way. the problem has been done over
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emotion of it on both sides. the point i wanted to make was people thought they were voting for something, but the result is so different. it is the same in the united states about voting for donald trump, there was frustration at the system he is a breath of fresh air, we can get something radically new. it turns out that the details don't work out that way. it isa details don't work out that way. it is a mature system or you don't kill each other in the parliament, can step back and say maybe we have made a fundamental mistake. if i can inject a note of optimism tax commission work i am pessimistic in the short term. this will be a very difficult transition. in the long term i am optimistic, notjust because of the fundamentals of written, but because of the fundamentals of the european union as well. this is an organisation that will be 27 member states and they can't agree on very much. there
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are political cycles, economic cycles are political cycles, economic cycle s ru n are political cycles, economic cycles run on different cycles. they clash all the time. i think you'll be an organisation that will be increasingly dysfunctional. as we transition out of it on this bumpy period, we will be better off to be not part of an organisation that struggles to make decisions and is declining as a share of the economy of the world. we are in difficult times, but will be ok. but tim, they are discovering themselves they are on the verge of this function, they have begun burying the idea of an even closer union. your argument is that the uk is leading at the wrong time? we need to have good intergovernmental relations which flies in the face... the bigger
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danger is facing up to russia. all russian assertiveness has happened since we have been part of the european union. this thought that the european union could stop this is nonsense. the western democracies need to come together to oppose this. nobody has mentioned the power of china. it is only by having a big international block. nobody has mentioned what china is doing. i was in uganda, china is everywhere there. an individual, as i think the norwegian politician said, there are small countries and countries which don't yet know they are small, and we are one of them. and glad you mentioned china. and russia. and russia. the love affair between a russian woman and a donor to the us republican party isjust one more thread in the web of influence woven by moscow in its attempts to affect american policy. on wednesday, michael cohen, donald trump's former personal lawyer, was jailed for breaching the law on funding election campaigns and for lying
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to congress about it. prosecutors say that during the presidential election, he paid off two women claiming affairs with mr trump. mr cohen says he was acting under the president's instructions to cover up his "dirty deeds". the president says he never directed his lawyer to break the law. meanwhile, marina butina, the russian gun activist pleaded guilty to conspiracy. the week before, us media was a buzz with the revelation that general michael flynn, donald trump's first national security adviser, had given 19 interviews to the special prosecutor examining the alleged russia connection. what are we to make from what we have heard over the last week about the progress that the mueller investigation is making? we can assume there is progress. my hat is off to him because in this very difficult environment he has played it absolutely buy the book. they do not leak. they are not giving
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columnists a peak in advance. the webby finder woody is doing is when the lawyers of the people he is targeting end up talking to the press. that is an uncertain few of what is happening. it appears that the russia connection, the russian trawler farms, the connection between wiki lakes and people close to his campaign meeting in trump tower, but what was interesting about some of michael cohen's revelations last week was that from wanted to build our hotel in moscow through the campaign, even though he said he wasn't doing it. when trump flies, you can find him in the light, it is a sign of what he is worried about covering up. the washington post came up with a new category, there are one, two, three, four star pinocchio is, then a bottomless pinocchio. so alive that
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there is no relationship to fact checking. he is the only holder of the bottomless pinocchio. we are talking about the leader of one of the most important countries in the world, terrible. adam schiff, the incoming chairof world, terrible. adam schiff, the incoming chair of the house intelligence committee, says he will follow the money, go after tax returns, go after deutsche bank. there was always thought that money—laundering going on. there was a new legal problems which raised four times as much money as obama's did. a big slush fund. looks like foreign donors from the gulf, saudi arabia and russia. these are all allegations that mueller will have to try to prove or disprove. is there a sense of who is most useful to him in digging into this?” there a sense of who is most useful to him in digging into this? i don't know. this is a classic investigation technique, the mafia organisation or white collar crime
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in general, you go after the little fish. it looks like michael cohen's papers and tape recordings in a raid six months ago seemed to be useful for this inaugural committee slush fund, then there will be somebody else who will turn. i don't think it will be all tied up in the next month! it will run and run. like our bread is a story in britain. the most fascinating thing that michael cohen said is that this president does not deserve loyalty. how much longer will some section of the people give him loyalty? a much longer can use suffer the ignominy ofa man longer can use suffer the ignominy of a man like him, longer can use suffer the ignominy ofa man like him, so longer can use suffer the ignominy of a man like him, so much longer can use suffer the ignominy ofa man like him, so much in disgrace by his own work, even his own people say he is a liar. you can't carry on feeling loyalty to achieve executive when he is under
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such accusations. we have a very split system, the fox news world think he has been set upon by liberal media interests, the democrats and a lot of it is made up. that it is basically unfair. that is a third of the electorate, basically. those are the ones still dominating the republican party. the only way you can get rid of trump is impeachment, he will not be indicted, it is not department policy. it will not happen from the justice department. that means he can get brought out of office while the republicans are willing to turn on him. why did michael cohen do what he did? i don't know entirely. i think he felt he might spend a lot of time injail. reduced the sentence. he also realised that trump sold out, and he gave his fealty and almost a juvenile way. he believed in him, he said he would
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ta ke believed in him, he said he would take a bullet for him. he threatened journalists with killing them if they didn't run better stories. when you are not any more useful to trump, you get sold down the river. the raise this question about the amount of influence russia is trying to exert. is there a danger with our collective media obsession with trump and exposing the floors of the man, that we are missing the bigger story. donald trump could be gone in a couple of years even if he survives his full term. president putin is likely to still be in office. one of the great dereliction office. one of the great dereliction of duty by trump is to say all those intelligence reports and there was russian interference in the election we re russian interference in the election were all covered up and he has done nothing to safeguard elections. they
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need to come to terms with this new media world, and it requires huge energy. this administration is much tougher on russia in various ways. i agree with you on the election. but agree with you on the election. but a new round of sanctions might be about to come in against russia as well, partly because of the aftermath of the attack in salisbury. after obama tolerated russia, not abiding by international arms treaties, donald trump has said he is willing to take america out of that if russia doesn't start behaving. it is not a picture of appeasement. talking about china in the last segment, i don't know whether donald trump will sustain it, but we have, compared to previous administrations, compared to the european union, we have an american president finally saying you are ripping off our intellectual property, behaving badly and
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international currency markets and we have had enough of it. the other countries weren't doing anything anyway. this is why i don't think the character think will bring trump down. maybe it should, but i think people knew before he was elected he wasn't somebody who treated women well, for example, but they wanted conservative supreme court justice, and things like that. so long as he keeps keeping his promises, which might be harder now the democrats are about to take over the house of representatives, that's what keeps is linked to his base, rightly or wrongly. some of the focus on china is that he doesn't really want to do anything about russia because there is an underbelly. he is doing some things about russia. but he is not doing what he should be doing on russia. i don't know these tories, if they were true. that would
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undermine his presidency, that would that is why he is not going that way. are you optimistic that the american system will correct any faults ? american system will correct any faults? in the long run, we are all dead! apart from the amps! i think there is something very unsettling about the hollowing out of the norms. it is notjust the laws, it is their expectations that people have of how systems should behave and trump has ridden through so many of them that he is being followed by other politicians in his wake, that is the most dangerous thing. other politicians in his wake, that is the most dangerous thingfi other politicians in his wake, that is the most dangerous thing. it is not just being is the most dangerous thing. it is notjust being nice to women, the allegations are atrocious. let me leave you with this thought. australia's federal parliament has been on holiday this week. it won't be back until the middle of february and is off for the whole of march. a pa rt—time parliament has anyone told theresa may?
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dateline london is here every week. next time, our look back at the events of 2018. until then, goodbye. some serious weather today. there is the potential for widespread disruption because of the wintry nature. storm the dream is bearing down on the uk, bringing strong to guilt force winds. as it comes into the cold air, the met office has amber warnings for ice and snow and widespread freezing rain is very unusual here in the uk. the risk is there from the midlands northwards through the rest of the day, up into
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the central and lowlands of scotland. there is another amber warning i'd put the met office, this time for snow. hence the risk of widespread disruption. some extremely dangerous conditions. storm deidre is already blowing a gale. as the day progresses, the rain turns heavier and goode turned to freezing rain across central and northern areas, and significant slope coupled with those winds, there will be blizzard conditions. even in the side where it is mostly rain that could be a bit of snow temporarily, it will be blowing so strong that it will feel really raw. up strong that it will feel really raw. up over the hills of wales, you can see snow for parts of england, but that risk of widespread black ice as the rain falls on frozen surfaces and almost instantaneously causes very slick conditions indeed. very wet and windy for northern ireland and when tariq across scotland. you
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could get a0 centimetres of snow in the hills in scotland. storm deidre will bring a change to milder weather, but we are having that transition with some very nasty winter weather around. almost all of oui’ severe weather winter weather around. almost all of our severe weather happening in one day, you don't often get a day like this. detailed warnings from our website. over this evening and overnight, it will continue to blow ideal. cold again overnight, cold enough for things to freeze, not as cold as last night, but the time we get to sunday it looks a lot quieter and we will see the winds easing, the rain and snow starting to fade, and a scattering of sunny spells and showers. the rain today could also bring some local flooding. tomorrow will at least be milder. the warnings on the website. this is bbc news. i'm shaun ley. the headlines at i2.00pm. the work and pensions secretary calls for a cross—party consensus to find a way forward
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on brexit as the foreign secretary says it's still possible to get a version of the prime minister's deal through parliament. crucial talks to tackle global warming continue through the night as officials from 200 countries struggle to agree a deal. a warning of freezing rain, ice and snow in parts of the uk, as storm deirdre hits on one of the busiest shopping weekends of the year. this is the scene live in paris where anti—government protesters are out on the streets again — despite concessions from president macron. campaigners urge the government to stop plans to issue prison officers with pepper spray to help tackle violence in jails. and how virtual reality is helping to tell schoolchildren
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