pulling out of the country. president trump's announcement has been heavily criticised at home and abroad. britain, a major ally of the us, questioned mr trump's assertion that islamic state militants in syria had been defeated. the us central bank, the federal reserve, has again raised interest rates, despite repeated appeals by donald trump not to do so. they have gone up by 0.25%, taking them to 2.5%. shares sank after the announcement. the european commission has published a series of contingency measures designed to limit any damage caused by a no—deal brexit. the measures include temporarily allowing british airlines to operate flights into and out of the eu, but not within it. now on bbc news, stephen sackur speaks to musician mark knopfler on hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk,

i'm stephen sackur. in the pantheon of rock and roll greats, a special place is reserved for qatar virtuosos. think eric cla pton, for qatar virtuosos. think eric clapton,jimmy for qatar virtuosos. think eric clapton, jimmy page or my guest today, mark knopfler, front man of dire straits, one of the biggest bands in the world in the 1980s and 19905. bands in the world in the 1980s and 1990s. unlike so many other rock stars, knopfler never fully embraced the world of success and celebrity. he forged a solo career, writing, performing, and working with the light of tina turner, and emmylou harris. a low—key, grounded rock legend — whoever heard of such a thing? mark knopfler, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you for having me. you've been writing music for many, many decades now. you are still at it, writing, singing, touring around the world. how different does it feel now from backin how different does it feel now from back in your youth, making it big in the late 1970s and early 1980s? back in your youth, making it big in the late 19705 and early 19805?m feels... i feel older. it the late 19705 and early 19805?m feels... ifeel older. it gets harder touring. if there are steps that you take my then the touring would be the final one, after writing and after recording. then the touring would probably be the first casualty, i think, with advancing years. i think i will have to put the brakes on there before too long. ijust wonder

to put the brakes on there before too long. i just wonder whether you feel, in a sense, liberated, freer? because now, frankly, having made an awful lot of money over the years, you are not driven by a sort of commercial need, you are not driven by expectations in the same way as a young man would be, and you are not actually trapped in a band the way you used to be. so do you feel free? yes, i think it's as close as you can come to a pretty cool way of going about things. and also i built my own studio, which again, i got too late, like everything. if i'd done it 20 years ago, i think it would be a little bit better, but it's a great thing to have, to do all my recording in as well, in london. i called you a guitar virtuoso, a rock ‘n‘ roll star. do you see yourself that way? not at all. i got who plays seriously, and

anybody who is involved in music the way that, say, the guys in my bandar, they would understand that it isa bandar, they would understand that it is a bottomless thing, it is an endless thing. it's like equating yourself with another piece of a great globaljigsaw, and you never get to finish. let's actually reflect on what the sound is like today. so many people watching this will remember dire straits from your biggest early hit, sultans of swing, and then the album which sold many tens of millions, brothers in arms. but let us look at the latest album, one particular track of the album. let's look at the style you have today. # out here with a quick and the dead. it's going to be another

day of sun and shameless blue. so there is mark knopfler with his band, and it's funny, you giggled as you watch that, particularly that shot of the geezers all clapping in line. that's not rock ‘n‘ roll as you knew it, is it? not exactly. no, let's go in and do some handclaps, and you know, whenever i see them in and you know, whenever i see them in a line like that, i always it always makes me laugh, because at the end of shows they all come to the front of shows they all come to the front of the stage and do a bow, and there always... the crowds are always wanting another song, and it always happens that way, and ijust call them terrible actors, and go on, go and do some bad acting.

them terrible actors, and go on, go and do some bad actingli them terrible actors, and go on, go and do some bad acting. i want to reflect on how you got into music, and what really motivated you within music. and i found and what really motivated you within music. and ifound this quote and what really motivated you within music. and i found this quote from you a while back where you said, as a kid, chuck berry made a huge impression on me. by 12 or 13 i was also listening to bob dylan and i was in love with the twang, with the immediacy of rock ‘n‘ roll, but i was also deeply concerned about the words. it was neverjust about was also deeply concerned about the words. it was never just about the music. explain that to me. this storytelling thing that you seem to have. well, that's right. and chuck berry would be an example of that. tremendous lyrics. well, ijust rememberfrom... i tremendous lyrics. well, ijust remember from... i think tremendous lyrics. well, ijust rememberfrom... i think it would be the bbc, in fact. it would be children's favourites, and this is going back a long time. to being a very young child. i asked my mother, actually, how are used to listen, and she said very seriously. you know, so i could sing apparently

rudolph the red nose reindeer at 18 months. so i remember the words to a lot of those songs. i can sing you the bedrock candy mountain. even though i didn't know what it was, it was a hobo song, i didn't know will what a hobo was but i knew i liked it and what a hobo was but i knew i liked itandi what a hobo was but i knew i liked it and i did fasten on the lyrics. and as a young man, every fast forward to your teens and early 20s, you discover that you could play and you discover that you could play and you were forming bands with mates and that sort of thing. but you were at the same time actually training to bea at the same time actually training to be a journalist for a while. yes. you became a newspaper reporter in yorkshire. so again, i see some sort of storytelling about. yes, i made it through a course at harlow, a full—time course in journalism, it through a course at harlow, a full—time course injournalism, and by some miracle i got on it. and enjoyed it. and it was the making of

me. i think in some ways it, i think, was a great thing for a young me to have done. because it sharpened me up, you had to get yourself organised, and it taught yourself organised, and it taught you how to condense, and it taught you how to condense, and it taught you how to condense, and it taught you how to... a beginning, a middle and an end, and to deal with stuff. so ifi and an end, and to deal with stuff. so if i give you an example, if i go off to interview the cast of a pantomime in leeds, which is where i ended up working for six years or so, well, iactually ended up working for six years or so, well, i actually worked in leeds on the paper for a so, well, i actually worked in leeds on the paperfor a couple of so, well, i actually worked in leeds on the paper for a couple of years. that's all that i did on the paper. but if you go and do a job like that, then you post your piece for the paper, but i would have my notes andi the paper, but i would have my notes and i would be looking at it, and some of it would just be becoming a songin some of it would just be becoming a song in my mind, which did, infact, in end. one more matinee. and i realise that i was becoming, slowly becoming what they call a songwriter. so your way of thinking

about yourself start to change. you think of yourself as a kid who plays guitar, and then you start thinking of yourself as a songwriter, and that's a whole different thing. of yourself as a songwriter, and that'5 a whole different thingm is different, and you're very self—deprecating when you talk about your relationship with the guitar. because again, i mentioned other great sort of rock ‘n‘ roll legend guitarists, like clapton, jimi hendrix,jimmy guitarists, like clapton, jimi hendrix, jimmy page, guitarists, like clapton, jimi hendrix,jimmy page, and guitarists, like clapton, jimi hendrix, jimmy page, and your name comes up hendrix, jimmy page, and your name comes up to. but you say, and you have said it several times, i am not in love with the guitar in that way. iam first in love with the guitar in that way. i am first and foremost about the songs, about the writing, not about the guitar. well, i do love the guitar, don't get me wrong. i mean, i love guitars, and i love cheap guitars as well as expensive ones. that's another thing that people assume that you're playing some massive flash thing, but you're not always. you have to love the thing, completely. all i was talking about

in the interview that you will have read was i have been saying that i have been using the guitar to write the song with. in other words, the song is what the important thing, and you're trying to do the best thing by the songs. let's talk about a specific song, which in a sense changed your life. sultans of swing. you had formed dire straits, your brother was part of the band, your friends as well, you had had some success , friends as well, you had had some success, but the song was your breakthrough. it took you into the charts, it took you into new territory for touring. let's remind people what it was like, late 1970s, early 1980s, when sultans of swing was on every playlist. # we are the sultans. we are the sultans of swing. so it is you, the red jacket,

the bandanna and the guitar. that, i suppose, was the time when you became a rock star. i get the feeling you were very uncomfortable, even from the beginning, with being a rock star. yes, i remember doing... ithink a rock star. yes, i remember doing... i think i did 18 interviews in amsterdam. we were number one debt in holland, and germany, and france, and everywhere, and all these journalist. and i france, and everywhere, and all thesejournalist. and i remember lying on my bed afterwards thinking somebody had grabbed the thread, the wool from my sweater and just kept pulling it. so... that's a really interesting metaphor. you mean, you felt shredded, and exposed. yes, because when you are a songwriter, you are looking at the world. or i am, and, you know, the feeling that

i got was that the world was suddenly looking at me. now, it is actually not as important as you think. after a while you start to realise, in fact, that music doesn't matter that much to most people anyway, and you learn to get it in perspective. but i think it really did rock me at the beginning, yes. you as a band were selling millions of records, you are touring all the time. of course, there's that famous phrase. rock ‘n‘ roll is usually preceded by sex and drugs. i mean, was there a time in your life where you felt you were not being true to yourself because you are being dragged into, or indeed maybe even embracing, a lifestyle that wasn't really you ? embracing, a lifestyle that wasn't really you? well, i don't... i would recommend success to anybody. don't. .. don't recommend success to anybody. don't... don't think recommend success to anybody. don't. .. don't think that, recommend success to anybody. don't... don't think that, you know, that it's not great. and it is great, and it's what i wanted, it is what we wanted. you know, that...

that's certainly true. but there's to it. well, here's a thing, you said it's great, referring to years of great success, but it is hard. it is traumatic and there is a lot of insanity. what did you mean by the insanity. what did you mean by the insanity and the trauma?|j insanity. what did you mean by the insanity and the trauma? i think anything that gets too big, anything that gets too successful, you know, you are going to be in touch with the downside of it. and it's up to you too... trauma, though? yes, i think it is traumatic it is traumatic for some people. and i think even for the business people who are looking up to you, even for management, it's like... you know, it's like trying to ride two wild horses at the same time, you know? it's not the easiest thing, always. well, you are being a bit elliptical, but trauma is a big word. i'm just wondering at what

point you felt traumatised, and what was it, really, that was giving you that trauma ? was it, really, that was giving you that trauma? well, i mean, i thought... really for me it was the writing that was suffering most of all. was that you get on this big roundabout, and the tours were so long. and i'm talking about 250 shows a year, or whatever it would be, or that kind of thing. and of course, you are getting exposed to a worldwide audience, and all the rest of it, but there was no time to... to me, there was no time to recover from any of it. you know, we'd be playing five or six, six nights a week, usually. and there'sjust playing five or six, six nights a week, usually. and there's just no let—up. whereas now, ifeel as though i can control the pace a little better. would it be right to speculate that one of the very difficult things for you is the success of dire straits seems to have destroyed your relationship with your brother, david, who was in

the band at the beginning, was part of the sultans of swing rise, but then very soon after left the band? that must have been very hard. yes, imean, i that must have been very hard. yes, i mean, i think there are casualties. where i wanted to go was to... was in the film, was into different kinds of records, different kinds of records, different kinds of ensembles, and also into production and working with different artists, and everything else. so i was always looking to increase my vocabulary, andi looking to increase my vocabulary, and i was always looking to improve asa and i was always looking to improve as a writer. he said, to paraphrase him, he said you, mark, wanted to run the bands like a monarchy. he saw the band as a democracy. well, it is possible. but uh... you in touch with him today? we

don't really committed, no. how much of the sadness is that? it is, it is. there are casualties with this game but you've got to be, you've got to be the right kind of person to do this. it means that you've got to do this. it means that you've got to be completely committed to it.|j thought you are going to say selfish. not necessarily in a bad way, because you developed this very successful solo career, you wrote film music, people remember the score to local hero, and as a producer you worked with some of the greatest names, bob dhillon, tina turner, emmylou harris in the country music venture. but that was you leaving the band behind. you think psychologically you were actually a guy who was better suited to being on your own in terms of the

artistic? i do, i do. and i wanted to work with other musicians as well and other instruments. and to have a different palates. we might go on to this time, i will have about ten musicians so even just getting towards the end of my time on stage, and i'm still thinking, i should really have a trombone and there. it's just the way that us. you couldn't have control with a guy like dylan. you produced at least one of his albums in the early 80s. he worked on some of his best—known songs of that period. but i wasjust finding out that production probably wasn't going to be for me. finding out that production probably wasn't going to be for melj finding out that production probably wasn't going to be for me. i was going to say, how difficult was it? i don't know what it was like working with dylan. you tell me, easy or tough? i think producing is a movable feast. sometimes you are

just directing traffic. other times, you are just directing traffic. other times, you a re really just directing traffic. other times, you are really involved with a song. you would be running down a song together. there is no law and no long ——no one song is the same and no wonder they will necessarily be the same. you just got to be ready for whatever turns up. but it didn't suit me terribly well. bob dhillon has, at times, it seems, been quite difficult to work with. how did you find it? -- bob dylan. all of these situations can provide trickier moments but i don't want to gossip about that too much. when you reflect on the different styles that you've come involved in, you came up with a phrase at one point and said

there was one particular alan knew worked on around 2012, you said, it's a little bit mississippi, it's a little bitjordie. —— geordie. where is your soul, your routes? it's a tricky one. i think i said once, where the delta meets the time. and for people who don't know around the world, the tyne is the river that runs through newcastle and people from newcastle are known as geordies. you weren't born there but you are raised there. my mum was a geordie. there are songs written with reflections on the north—eastern things you remember from your dad and newcastle. would you say, if you cut right through to the mark knopfler quick, that is where the routes of your soul? yes, i think so. my love for northumberland keeps on growing and i had northumberland keeps on growing and ihada northumberland keeps on growing and i had a love affair with the town when i was a teenager but as i got

older, i moved out of town and went to the countryside, the glorious countryside of northumberland so i a lwa ys countryside of northumberland so i always like to get my northumbrian fix, if i can. music is always like to get my northumbrian fix, ifi can. music is changed for a great deal over 50 years of your career. right now, it is all about downloads and streaming music and album sales, which used to be the great measure of success, and whether it be vinyl or cd, all of that has changed and it seems that the big money for people like you with a big name in rock ‘n' roll, the big money is in touring. do you feel that the balance is shifted in a good or a difficult way for musicians today? well, obviously you don't go touring to lose money but... it's not the pressure to go back? some people have talked about a dire straits reunion and your mate john illsley who was in the band for

a long time, he has talked about his readiness for a dire straits reunion because apart from anything, it would be a massive payday. those big arenas and stadiums around the world, you would make a fortune. are you tempted ? world, you would make a fortune. are you tempted? do you think so? everyone else is doing it, from the rolling stones on. maybe, but it's not my... i'm not particularly interested in that. i've done pretty well. a copper studio and i put a lot into that. never mind the commercial side of it but from the artistic point of view, would you a lwa ys artistic point of view, would you always rule out a dire straits reunion? i think so any leaping a yea rs reunion? i think so any leaping a years ago was that it might be possible to do something for charity but the only trouble with that is, everything else that would surround that then, once, as soon as you've

started working in that direction, the pressure is to do a whole bunch of socio could stuff and it would be too much. you would be unable, you would be trying to recoup costs here, there and everywhere and it would be a project that would take up would be a project that would take upa would be a project that would take up a whole lot of time. and always beenin up a whole lot of time. and always been ina up a whole lot of time. and always been in a situation where i wanted do something musical, i wanted to go somewhere different, want to explore something in another way. ifind that far more absorbing and far more fascinating. i never thoughti that far more absorbing and far more fascinating. i never thought i would ever make a film, be able to create a film score. i never thought i would be able to do a musical, you're joking. would be able to do a musical, you'rejoking. and yet would be able to do a musical, you're joking. and yet when this local hero thing came together... you were involved in the making of

the music. a musical version of the movie local hero. the bill forsyte story. i didn't think i'd be the mantra that but then i could write is -- mantra that but then i could write is —— write songs are the characters. —— bill forsyth. is —— write songs are the characters. -- bill forsyth. what are the aspects of the weird interplay of arts and commerce. noticed earlier this year, an investment company by the name of real exchange has bought a portion of the dire straits back catalogue and they sold it to investors saving, if you buy a share of the dire straits back catalogue, you will produce a cash yield of a per centin will produce a cash yield of a per cent in the first year and a forecast of12— cent in the first year and a forecast of 12— 15% annualised rate of returns over ten years. it was the next manager selling his little share of something, that's all. --an ex— manager. share of something, that's all. --an ex- manager. were you appalled? pretty much, but it's not my style. i wouldn't have done it. you never know what people will do. unmindful,

you wrote one of the most famous lines in songs, money for nothing. and it was a reflection, i remember the story about the song, a guy looking at some pop stars on the tv and griping about how they get away from making —— with making money for nothing. when you consider your careers, its ups and downs, the flow, is there anything truthful about that money for nothing?m flow, is there anything truthful about that money for nothing? it can be, but ijust consider myself the luckiest guy in the world. when i go into the studio is when i feel the happiest. that's really were as though i'm going i belong. i tried a lot of other things that i don't think that they've worked as well. music he has never been work. no, it hasn't been like work and are

probably never work today, all those with music. mark knopfler, it's a great day to end. thank you very much had been on hardtalk. pressure. —— pleasure. much had been on hardtalk. pressure. -- pleasure. i appreciate it. hello there. well, as you've probably already heard, the run—up to christmas is set to be a fairly mild one, with ouraircoming in off the atlantic. now, it's not going to be completely settled, though. there will be quite a bit of cloud and also some rain or showers at times. but a little bit of sunshine, too. now, for thursday, we've still got low pressure in charge of the weather. it'll be anchored to the north—west of the uk. and we'll have a fair old breeze blowing in from the west, and that will continue to feed in showers, most of them across southern and western areas early on thursday,

the odd heavy one, with many central and eastern parts seeing the longer dry spells to begin thursday. so we'll have a split in temperatures. where you get the showers, a bit more cloud. southern and western areas, then, temperatures around five to seven degrees. something a bit cooler, though, further north. scotland, maybe a touch of frost in some of the glens, and maybe a little mist and fog, too. for thursday morning, it's going to be a largely dry and a bright one across many northern and eastern areas. showers, though, will get going across the west, and they may merge together to produce some longer spells of rain, some of them could be quite heavy. and, again, it's going to be fairly blustery, particularly near southern and western coasts. mild in the south, 10—11 degrees. further north, these are pretty typical temperatures, in fact, for this time of year. as we head through thursday night, it stays quite breezy, quite showery. for a time, the showers ease down, and then we start to see some wetter and windier weather arriving across the south—west. that's because this next frontal system will move into the southern half of the country during thursday night into friday morning. so it could be quite wet for some. but what it will do is import even milder air across the southern half

of the country, as you can see, the yellow and orange colours there. so, although it's going to be a really drab start to friday, a lot of surface spray, standing water on the roads, that rain should eventually clear eastwards. although its northern extent may linger on across parts of northern ireland, northern england, maybe southern scotland. so a bit of a grey day here. to the north of here, again, quite cool with a little bit of sunshine. and sunshine will move in across england and wales. and very mild, 11—14 degrees. now, into the weekend, it looks like saturday will be the driest day with that ridge of high pressure. and then these weather fronts move in on for sunday. so i think it is a bit of a tale of two halves. there will be one or two showers across northern and eastern areas to begin saturday. otherwise, with that ridge of high pressure building in, it should turn a little bit drier. winds a bit lighter, too, still coming in from the west, and we should see a good deal of sunshine around, particularly further south and east where you are. 10—12 degrees, very mild again in the south. around 9—10 in the north. sunday looks wetter and windier across the board. and, as we head on into monday, it looks like it could turn a little

bit cooler in the north. this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top story: delays and diversions. gatwick airport warns passengers to expect more disruption because drones were flown over the airfield. president trump is pulling us troops out of syria. he says islamic state is defeated. we have a special report on the families who'll be kept apart at christmas time because of tough immigration income rules on spouses from outside the european economic area. in business, stock markets give the fed a thumbs down as it raises interest rates, despite warnings from president trump and slowing growth. that move from the us central bank sends the dow to its lowest close in more than a year. asian markets are following suit. we'll have full analysis in the business briefing.